Second Weddings

Crappy human = great parent?

However, I have a 2 and a half year old (NOT from my ex husband - daughter was concieved after divorce, however, her dad and i never had a "relationship" - Long (LONG) story short, He was married, he didnt tell me until AFTER I got pregnant, but I still moved across the country (eastcoast to westcoast) so that he can be in her life - he as a father is an AMAZING father, he just sucks as a human :-)

The bold lines got me thinking - is it really possible to suck as a human being but be a fantastic parent?  How great a parent can you be if you think it's ok to be a lying adulterer?
I've come across this situation before - I know a man who has the opinion that women stay in abusive relationships because they like to be hit - he is emotionally and mentally abusive himself (can't say 100% on physical), is milking the system so he doesn't have to work, and is generally a rainy day wherever he goes.  Yet I heard another woman (not anyone involved romantically with him) say what a great dad he is. 
Again, do you think it is really possible to be a morally bankrupt human being but still be a great parent?  My answer is an emphatic no, but I would be interested in finding out if you think I'm way off base here.

Re: Crappy human = great parent?

  • edited December 2011
    I don't  know.. I don't generally think it works that way.

    However, my dad is a terrible father.. but an otherwise decent person.  So I know sometimes it can go the opposite way.
  • handfast4mehandfast4me member
    Seventh Anniversary 1000 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    I do not think that is possible.   I think that we all have strengths and weaknesses.  Usually they're intertwined, and your greatest strenth is also your biggest weakness.  But in this case, the man to whom the OP refers might be bad at ADULT relationships, but pretty good at parental ones.  We don't have evidence if he can keep a job, donates his time to charitable organizations, and saves kittens and puppies on his weekends off. 

    I don't think it's possible to suck as a human and be a good parent, nor do I think it's possible to suck as a parent and be a good human being.  They're mutually exclusive.  In order to be a GOOD HUMAN, you have to be a good parent (or know that you suck as one, and take the steps to avoid becoming one), or to be a GOOD PARENT, you have to be a good human to set an example for your offspring, which is part of being a good parent. 
    Just my .02
    image Don't mess with the old dogs; age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! BS and brilliance only come with age and experience.
  • awayagainawayagain member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Haven't you ever seen a marriage where the man and woman hated each other and did horrible things to each other, but lavished love on the kids?

    Whoa. I don't think I have.  How would hating your spouse and doing horrible things to him/her, which the children would invariably see because things like this would be hard to keep in a bubble, be considered good parenting?
  • handfast4mehandfast4me member
    Seventh Anniversary 1000 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    Yeah, I agree with AA.  I think that by showing the kids this behavior towards your spouse, you are, then, being a crappy human, AND a crappy parent.  Again, setting an example for your kids is half of good parenting!

    This is why, as hard as it was, I never, ever, said anything bad about my x to my daughter.  It was her dad, and she comes from him as much as from me!  So, while she was in her teens, and he was saying horrific things about me, I just sucked it up.  Eventually she figured it out, and I didn't have to say anything.  Further, when she DID figure it all out, and then started asking me things about him, I never said "why, yes, he did that horrible thing!"  Instead I said:  "that's between your dad and I"  or, in other cases "you will have to ask him that question."   Boy that was hard!!!!! 

    ETA: for clarification.
    image Don't mess with the old dogs; age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! BS and brilliance only come with age and experience.
  • blush64blush64 member
    Sixth Anniversary 500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I don't think it's possible because part of being a good parent is teaching your child to be a good and moral person.
  • fireytigerfireytiger member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I think it's hard to say. My parents definitely have their weaknesses, and the type of relationship they have is almost exactly what retread mentioned: They hate each other and do awful things to each other, but each tried to give me love the only ways they knew how. Unfortunately with my dad, his way of showing me love was to force me into activities whether I wanted to do them or not, and giving me money to make up for the fact that he missed most of the important events in my life due to work. My mom tried to smother me and in return I backed away in order to breathe, and that caused chaos. And all the while of course, I had to witness them backstabbing each other, fighting, etc. and they would use me and put me in the middle. Whenever they'd fight, both of them would put me in the position to "choose" which parent was better or who loved me more, which is just a plain awful thing to do to a child. 

    Now that i'm an adult, I'm able to understand some things that went on, my dad and I have developed a closer relationship but I can tell it's not on solid ground. I don't speak to my mother because there's a lot of pain and anger there that I haven't been able to get over. On one hand, I turned out to be a pretty well rounded individual, I'm intelligent and well educated, I know how to take care of myself, etc. Many of those things are due to my parents' help and upbringing. But on the other hand, I think i'm kinda lucky that I turned out as good as I did. I don't know what to credit my parents for and what I developed out of sheer luck.
  • AbbeyS2011AbbeyS2011 member
    1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    That is an interesting question.

    As far as my exH goes - NO.  He is awful as a parent and he is an awful human being.  He was/is extremely verbally and mentally abusive, and an "all about me" type of person. 

    There are some people than can be a really good parent but as a human being, not a good person at all.  How many reports have we seen about evil people in the news media who did something really awful, and all the neighbors/friends say "He/she was such a great parent, I am so shocked they could do something like this"?
    Anniversary
  • Marrin713Marrin713 member
    1000 Comments Third Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In the example AA cited about a guy she knows, I would bet he's emotionally very immature therefore gets along great with kids.  ExBiL was just like that as well (in fact I believe AA was writing about him LOL) - a case of arrested development and the nieces and nephews adored him and still do.
  • handfast4mehandfast4me member
    Seventh Anniversary 1000 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    Good point Marrin!  That would describe my x to a T. 

    And to Abbey--I don't think I've seen one neighbor of a serial killer in which the neighbor said "oh, they were so nice!"  Usually it's more like  "oh, they were so quiet, and always kept to themselves." 
    image Don't mess with the old dogs; age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! BS and brilliance only come with age and experience.
  • Lisa50Lisa50 member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_crappy-human-great-parent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:23226043-b52d-471c-ac05-16979411ab3fPost:c9e9c554-0eb9-44ab-886c-526425452a97">Re: Crappy human = great parent?</a>:
    [QUOTE]I don't think it's possible because part of being a good parent is teaching your child to be a good and moral person.
    Posted by blush64[/QUOTE]

    I agree.  We teach our children by our example, and its better to teach them with good examples rather than poor ones.  But whatever that example is ... they learn from us.

    I was impacted by this (ridiculous moral character) in a previous long-term relationship.  Long story short, my BF -- whom I dated for over 3 yrs -- was a pathological liar.  Close to the end of our relationship, he found out he'd been lied to by his parents/family for the entirety of his life.  He was adopted and didn't find out until after his mother's death.  So ... how could someone who'd been lied to for 4 decades not know anything <strong>but</strong> lying?  They taught him that every day.
  • handfast4mehandfast4me member
    Seventh Anniversary 1000 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    Retread, you need to just re-read my post, which was in response to Abbey's saying that all the neighbors, when interviewed by reporters said that the neighbor was "nice."  I've never seent that!  I've seen ONLY that they'll say "he always stuck to himself!"  or "He was so quiet!"  I never said I knew all about these people, I was only referring to what I  have seen on the news after an arrest of a serial killer Here's what I wrote:

    And to Abbey--I don't think I've seen one neighbor of a serial killer in which the neighbor said "oh, they were so nice!"  Usually it's more like  "oh, they were so quiet, and always kept to themselves." 

    My experience with this was several years ago--I was probably very, very distantly related to this person, as we had the same last name, but he was shot by another neighbor who'd finally had enough.  The guy terrorized the neighborhood, was a bully, threatened kids, I think even killed some pets, and some other stuff.  Clearly NOT a nice person.  I don't think he had any offspring--so at least he was smart in that regard.

    Now THERE'S another thing:  I think that bad human beings can, and unfortunately, many times, are SMART! 
    image Don't mess with the old dogs; age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! BS and brilliance only come with age and experience.
  • handfast4mehandfast4me member
    Seventh Anniversary 1000 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_crappy-human-great-parent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:23226043-b52d-471c-ac05-16979411ab3fPost:d6d0e44a-e0fb-4bc6-a91b-d8f835542560">Re: Crappy human = great parent?</a>:
    [QUOTE]Parents don't always air their disagreements in front of the kids.
    Posted by RetreadBride[/QUOTE]

    I was thinking about this, and was showing this thread to a colleague.  She's very experienced with emotional issues, between her own upbringing and her relationships.  She brought up an interesting point, and one that I totally agree with.  She stated that even if the parents don't belittle one another, or "air their disagreements" in front of the kids, that the kids will know what's happening. They sense it, and they can tell, just by the actions of the parents, unless, of course, the parents are "Oscar quality actors"  (loved that quote) or that the kids are just in denial. 
    image Don't mess with the old dogs; age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! BS and brilliance only come with age and experience.
  • MikesAngieMikesAngie member
    1000 Comments Third Anniversary Name Dropper 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    My DSD's bio-mom abandoned her relationship with her husband and child by being an addict (alcohol and drugs), and to this day swears she did nothing wrong.  She is also self-centered and doesn't see anything wrong with that either.  My DSD hates having to talk to her every Monday, and actually does a happy dance when she forgets to call.

    So in my experience crappy human = crappy parent and I have had more experience then just my DSD to draw that conclusion from. I have seen it in my XH's adult children, my siblings and my bio-mom.
  • blush64blush64 member
    Sixth Anniversary 500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I would like to add that sociopaths (psychopaths, etc) aren't the nicest people you'll meet, they only appear to be nice and appear to be moral and normal but it's in appearance only. They aren't capable of the same emotion as everyone else and they aren't, as a rule, good parents.

    They might give the impression of being great people but I think the murdering and illegal activities they engage in would exclude them from being called good parents.
  • Lisa50Lisa50 member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_crappy-human-great-parent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:23226043-b52d-471c-ac05-16979411ab3fPost:3e99358e-254a-4308-8aef-93127e1567cd">Re: Crappy human = great parent?</a>:
    [QUOTE]My DSD's bio-mom abandoned her relationship with her husband and child by being an addict (alcohol and drugs), and to this day swears she did nothing wrong.  She is also self-centered and doesn't see anything wrong with that either.  My DSD hates having to talk to her every Monday, and actually does a happy dance when she forgets to call. So in my experience crappy human = crappy parent and I have had more experience then just my DSD to draw that conclusion from. I have seen it in my XH's adult children, my siblings and my bio-mom.
    Posted by MikesAngie[/QUOTE]

    Welcome back, newly-married woman!!!!
  • Lisa50Lisa50 member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_crappy-human-great-parent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:23226043-b52d-471c-ac05-16979411ab3fPost:e10a1dc3-e414-4ed5-a4f0-910194192304">Re: Crappy human = great parent?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Crappy human = great parent? : I was thinking about this, and was showing this thread to a colleague.  She's very experienced with emotional issues, between her own upbringing and her relationships.  She brought up an interesting point, and one that I totally agree with.  <strong>She stated that even if the parents don't belittle one another, or "air their disagreements" in front of the kids, that the kids will know what's happening.</strong> They sense it, and they can tell, just by the actions of the parents, unless, of course, the parents are "Oscar quality actors"  (loved that quote) or that the kids are just in denial. 
    Posted by handfast4me[/QUOTE]

    Agree.  100% ... that's the point I tried to make in my first post, that my ex-BF had been raised -- cacooned -- in a lifelong lie. I don't think he had any choice but to be a liar.  Even though he was not aware of being lied to, pathological lying became part of him.  Period.
  • MikesAngieMikesAngie member
    1000 Comments Third Anniversary Name Dropper 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    Thank you Lisa!!!
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