Second Weddings

Equal Pay

How long has it been since you thought about whether or not women are paid equally to men?  I am sorry to say that it's been too long for me.  I was a rather militant feminist in my college days.  I've lost the fire in my belly.
 But here's the simple fact.  In 1970 - women were paid on average 59 cents to every dollar men were paid for equivalent work.  In 2011 - what do you think that number is?  Have we made it up to some equal number?

The answer is 77 cents.  We've gained just 18 cents in 41 years.  In 1970, a gallon of gas cost 36 cents.  A new house cost $26,500 in 1970.  Minimum wage was $1.60.   We've seen exponential rises in the cost of so many things, but in a world where we would like to think we've achieved progress toward gender equality, we've just barely inched forward.  We moved from making a handful over half to slightly more than three quarters of a man's wage. 
I didn't take the mommy track.  I have been employed full time since 1983.  I've achieved a graduate degree while being pregnant, supporting a household and working full time.   Don't get me wrong, I do just fine, salary wise.  But I wonder how my salary compares to the men I work with in similar positions. 

How much does this matter to you??  Is this even relevant in today's world?  Is feminism worth saving.  ~Donna

Re: Equal Pay

  • fireytigerfireytiger member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I think about whether or not women get equal pay all the time. It pisses me off that many companies are not fair about it (although I seem to have gotten lucky with the ones that do). I consider myself a pretty militant feminist, although I'm not the kind that will rail on women who CHOOSE to stay at home with the kids, and like to cook and clean, etc. Heck, I personally love to cook and I used to be a housekeeper, so I like cleaning. I've always been a "live and let live" type person, if someone wants to stay home, cook and clean and make children and "obey" her husband, then awesome for her as long as she's happy. If another woman wants to go out and work 60-80 hour weeks and get that corner executive office, then that's great too. But I would certainly hope that she would be getting paid comparatively with her male peers, and that she were treated fairly.

    The honest truth is in today's society, women have to work twice as hard as men in order to be respected the same, which is ridiculous but it's the way things are for now. I'd like to think that with the march of time that that will change, many things have changed. I think being a feminist is still relevant in this day and age, because heck, people like Ann Coulter are even coming out saying that "A woman's place should be in the home, barefoot, making kids and sammiches!" As long as there are people who still believe that we should be going backwards, we need people to be forward thinkers. So yeah, we definitely need feminists still.
  • Lisa50Lisa50 member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    I think about it ALL THE TIME.  As you know, I haven't been fully employed in over 18 months.  Every time I apply for a job, I carefully consider how to deal with marketing my over-educated, over-experienced and (formerly) equally-paid self to a prospective employer.  I had to be very aggressive to get myself to pay equity.  It will really hurt if I have to backslide.

    Regrettably, in some ways, feminism is dead.  That many women and men tend to define feminism as an emasculation of men -- and not as the way to attain equal rights -- is likely why the movement doesn't feel the same as it was.  These things ebb and flow.

    As my son enters college in the fall, he (as a man) will be in the minority.  More women than men are enrolling in college.  Perhaps that will lead to a subtle shift toward equal pay, as long as the proportion of women entering the workforce follows the same trend.

    Just my $0.02. 
  • Avion22Avion22 member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    I'm in the military.  Our salaries are public, so I am 100% sure that I make the same as the men I work with.   Also, our promotions are done by a blind board (essentially a record review, not a live interview, and there is no picture of us in our records), so are completely performance-based. 

    We don't bargain for our salaries because it's a fixed pay scale.  But I've heard several arguments that one of the reasons women generally don't get paid as much is because they don't bargain as hard as men do for higher salaries, and don't ask for raises as often as they should.   I know that I personally lack bargaining skills, especially when it comes to bargaining on my own behalf.  Plus, the whole concept of bargaining for a salary is just foreign to me. 
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  • edited December 2011
    Firey - re: women who choose to stay at home - I don't judge them either.  I would love to tell you that my children are as well off as they would have been if I had been home more.  The answer is they are not.  But they also have an exemplar of work ethic and success that I hope they value.  Oh, and they had a roof over their head and food on the table, which would not have occurred if I had not worked.  I don't think that the SAHM should judge the working mothers either.  And there are plenty who do.
    As far as working twice as hard- YES!  Not just to achieve equal pay, but just to survive.  While I don't think there are as many couples where they both work and when they come home the man takes his position in the recliner while the wife makes supper, I will bet that even if they both cook, the woman will be the meal planner, the person who removes whatever from the freezer etc.  And who directs the homework, and reviews the calendar for who needs to get where, etc.  Two jobs, every day.  ~Donna
  • edited December 2011
    Lisa - maybe we should herald the end of feminism as defined like you wrote.  I always had a hard time with targeting men as the enemy, even in the days of Gloria Steinem, Ms. Magazine, and NOW marches, when feminism felt cool and exciting.  The reality is, that there were and perhaps still are some men who believe that equality for women will reduce their advantage, and will reduce or eliminate their ability to get ahead.  It's not unlike those who believe that marriage equality will somehow diminish the sanctity and value of their own marriages. 

    Avion - the military... I have a deep respect for the men and women who serve and protect our country.  So thank you and your brothers and sisters who do so.  However, I am not sure equality is a hallmark of the military.  Women are statistically more likely to be sexually assaulted by one of their fellow service members than they are to be affected by enemy fire.  That statistic alone is reprehensible.  And how exactly does one rise to the highest ranks in the military?  Isn't combat valor a valued component?  Are women offered the same opportunities for combat and combat command?  (I honestly don't know the answer to that question, I hope you can enlighten me.)  I know there are women who attain high rank, and who are in command roles.  I wonder how they compare statistically to the percentage of women who are in the military?   So you cannot have pay equality if you do not first have opportunity equality. 

    Just your friendly Tuesday morning debate. Laughing ~Donna
  • edited December 2011
    I've read several studies that agree with what Avion said--one of the reasons women are paid less is because we don't bargain/ask for more money.

    My company doesn't have gender issues (although we have other issues that equally explosive when it comes to payscale), and for that I have been grateful.  I was a SAHM, I've worked full time.  I've always worked hard at everything I've done, and even when I was a SAHM, I often felt like I was working twice as hard as my XH.

    Even now when I am blessed with a FI who really does want to be an equal contributor, it mostly falls on me to delegate tasks to him.  I am fairly certain that men just aren't programmed to look around, see what needs to be done, and do it on their own.  I often wonder how they survive in business. :-P
  • edited December 2011
    Much to think about with this discussion.

    I am the product of the feminist 70's.  My mother - while not a bra burner or anything like that - was divorced at the age of 24 with 2 small kids (me at 4years old and my brother an infant).  She had started college before getting married and having kids, but gave it up for my father. 

    She then found a job, and raised us with very little help from my father.  While she never talked about things like how hard it was - we knew.  We knew we had to make do with less but she never complained.  Until in the early 80's, she started getting passed up for promotions by guys younger and with less work experience "because they had a degree" so she was told. 

    So you know what she did?  She went and got herself that Business degree in Management.  We saw her work all day, go to class at night and work on homework for the next few years.  She busted her ass!  and in typical teen fashion - I didn't appreciate it at all.  (stupid teenagers...)  BUT what I did appreciate was that in order for me to be successful college was not OPTIONAL. 

    My industry is dominated by men (well it used to be - more women are coming in all the time) - when I first started I was underpaid.  But just as others pointed out - when I realized this - I negotiated for more money.  I am now on par with my counterparts at this company.  (I even make more than my ex-husband and my FI!)

    I am a feminist - in the sense I demand to be treated equally when I am equally capable.  Anything less than that and I'm going to call you out for it.   A great example of this - whenever I meet new people they assume I don't have children because I travel so much for work.  When I tell them about my beautiful daughters, they always say "OMG how can you travel with kids at home?  don't you miss them? who takes care of them?"  And I always answer with:  "Are you asking me?  or my male teammates?  They have children too."  (I take personal issue with this one - like I'm somehow crying my eyes out each night in the hotel becuase I can't be seperated from my kids for a few days - but yet no one ever asks men this question. Weird huh?)

    My kids are being raised in a world where women making more than the man in the relationship is not unusual.  And I am trying very hard to teach them that they can do whatever they want in their lives.  And to me - that is the definition of a true feminist.


  • edited December 2011
    Kelly - Awesome points.  I agree that women don't get educated / mentored in salary negotiation.  We devalue ourselves and allow others to set the pay scale.  And then act "appreciative".  We have been taught to be gracious, not assertive and never aggressive.

    You know what frosts my cupcakes?  Taxes.  For years I was the primary wage earner.  Not once did xH make close to my salary.  But whose name goes first on the tax form?  His.  In fact, I never changed my name with Social Security when I married him.  And for 15 years, filed taxes religiously.  When did that little problem come to light?  When I got divorced and dropped his sorry butt off my tax form.  I had to change my name with Social Security - to HIS NAME - after the divorce!  Didn't matter before that, I was under his protective wing (forgive me while I gag).  Now, married to DH, and changed my name again (this time I did the SS right away), and still make more than he does.  And yes, his name goes first on the form.  Done by our female CPA, who is a founding partner in the accounting firm we use.  Who also makes significantly more than her husband.  There is jsut something wrong with that picture.

    ~Donna
  • edited December 2011
    So if you consider yourself a militant feminist - what makes you militant?
    Are you protesting, writing letters, making donations?   What is it that makes you militant? 
  • MikesAngieMikesAngie member
    1000 Comments Third Anniversary Name Dropper 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    I was raised solely by my Dad until I was 16, and tend to have a more masculine take on some issues.

    I have never been paid equally for the same work as my male counterparts.  I actually had an ex-supervisor that told me I was being paid at the same rate as the other women who were in my position (there were 2 both just out of college with no real experience, I had 15 years of experience and a degree) .  There were also several men in the same position with less experience making 22% more the excuse was they had bills and families to feed... Hmmmm I believe I also had bills and a family to feed as well.

    I ended up leaving that company and giving myself a decent raise - unfortunately the economy killed commercial construction and I have been unemployed for almost 2 years.  Even with my raise I was still being paid less than men in my position. 

    This is an issue that me and my ladies discuss on a regular basis.  
  • Sue-n-KevinSue-n-Kevin member
    Seventh Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011

    Wow, barnburner topic! And it couldn't come at a better time, as I went over my performance review with my boss this morning. I said a few things I probably shouldn't have, but oh well.

    Like many of you, I have worked since before I graduated HS (at a restaurant, but it WAS over 40 years ago!). In that 40 years, I have been away from work exactly 6 months........3 months when I was unemployed after a layoff, and a total of 3 months for my 2 maternity leaves. Vacations are not included, but my honeymoon in September for 14 days will be the longest I've been away from work since my last maternity leave over 16 years ago.

    I went to an ALL GIRLS HIGH SCHOOL (Catholic of course), and there was a tremendous amount of empowerment there......every class President, Valedictorian, "smartest", "most athletic" were FEMALES! My graduating class of 130 has probably 40 nurses, several attorneys, 4-5 doctors, many corporate Vice Presidents, and yes, a few SAHM's. So that was my "breeding ground".

    I got my Associates Degree in Massachusetts while I lived there. I got pregnant with my first child as a single mom (at age 31 when I could no longer be on the PIll because I smoked), and have continued to work through my son's 23 years, my daughter's 16, and still at it.

    I made a great salary when I was laid off almost 8 years ago, more than I ever thought I would make. It was a large corporation that I know paid equally regardless of sex. I am still, after 8 years, trying to get back to that salary. I left a job after 3 years due to the pay (I loved the job, just not the low pay), and have been with my current employer for 5 years. I work in an industry (insurance) that is primarily white males, who drink a lot and slap each other on the back and go golfing with their clients. While I'd bet half the total staff is women, the majority  are "back room workers" who rarely meet with clients upfront. This was pretty much my beef with my boss today. I LOVE what I do, and work from home 100% except for occasional travel.............however, I need some job "enrichment", not advancement (which isn't available anyway because there's only 2 of us in the company). I'd like to have more marketing experience.

    I could make more if I owned my own company, and that may be the direction I move in........after I have another source for health insurance (my fiance), and feel I could go out and market my skills to a ready made clientele.

    I think the thing that everyone's sort of hinted at, but not said, is that there is tremendous competition for EVERY job today with the economy/hiring taking a nose dive. This competition doesn't just pit women against men, it pits foreigners against Americans, minorities against non-minorities, "highly educated" vs those that are not. From an employer's perspective it's basically "take it or leave it", which has, I believed, suppressed the aggressiveness of females to ask for their fair share. It wouldn't surprise me to see that our pay in relation to men's pay drops in the next few years (in spite of the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act). Employers can say they are offering what the "market" says, and few women will push the issue.

    And yes, my son emailed me a week or so ago and informed he will be a "minority" when he gets out of grad school this month.......more undergrads and grad school graduates are women than men.

  • Avion22Avion22 member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_equal-pay?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:2bb562ff-4a18-4602-8151-f416cf946749Post:de7d607a-cc71-4e07-af3b-1921b6924f7e">Re: Equal Pay</a>:
    [QUOTE]Lisa - maybe we should herald the end of feminism as defined like you wrote.  I always had a hard time with targeting men as the enemy, even in the days of Gloria Steinem, Ms. Magazine, and NOW marches, when feminism felt cool and exciting.  The reality is, that there were and perhaps still are some men who believe that equality for women will reduce their advantage, and will reduce or eliminate their ability to get ahead.  It's not unlike those who believe that marriage equality will somehow diminish the sanctity and value of their own marriages.  Avion - the military... I have a deep respect for the men and women who serve and protect our country.  So thank you and your brothers and sisters who do so.  However, I am not sure equality is a hallmark of the military.  Women are statistically more likely to be sexually assaulted by one of their fellow service members than they are to be affected by enemy fire.  That statistic alone is reprehensible.  And how exactly does one rise to the highest ranks in the military?  Isn't combat valor a valued component?  Are women offered the same opportunities for combat and combat command?  (I honestly don't know the answer to that question, I hope you can enlighten me.)  I know there are women who attain high rank, and who are in command roles.  I wonder how they compare statistically to the percentage of women who are in the military?   So you cannot have pay equality if you do not first have opportunity equality.  Just your friendly Tuesday morning debate.  ~Donna
    Posted by right1thistime[/QUOTE]


    Donna -- combat valor is not what gets people promoted.  People get promoted by perofrming their job duties. If you're a computer specialist, you get promoted by being a really good computer specialist who is technically competent and reliable.  There are leaderhsip opportunities in every career field.   Granted, not every career field has 4-star generals, but for people who really excel (no matter what gender) there are plenty of opportunities for promotion.   From what 've observed, the reason there aren't more higher-ranking females is because A) women haven't had equal status in the military long enough for many of them to have made it higher ranks yet, and B) a lot of women choose to get out of the military.   

    As far as sexual assault, I would say that women in the military aren't any more succeptible to sexual assault than they are outside the military.   This is a societal problem, not a military problem.  Why do the numbers look higher?  Because the military offers more support to women who come forward and report their assaults than most civilians have access to.  There are a few different kinds of reporting -- One kind is essentially a police report, just like it would be for civilians.  However, there is another kind of reporting that protects the victim more by allowing women to get the health care and mental health care they need on a completely confidential basis, that doesn't start disciplinary action against the assaulter.  BOTH kinds of reporting are kept track of for statistics, so it makes our numbers look higher.
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  • edited December 2011
    Avion - Thanks for the education.  I do wonder how the percentage of females in command positions (as a percent of the total number of people in the command positions) relates to the overall percentage of females in the military.

    I work in Nursing.  In Nursing, men are the minority.  However, the percentage of men in management positions is a higher percentage than the number of men in Nursing overall.   Men who enter Nursing are less likely to stay in the bedside role than a woman entering into Nursing.  Are they more ambitious?  More driven?  More capable?  I don't think so.  I think men are socialized to believe in themselves.  They don't (as often) look at their boss and think, 'wow, that person is so smart, I could never be capable of doing his/her job."  I think that many of them take a look at their boss and think, "I'm at least as smart as that person, and I bet I could do it better." 

    I think we have made strides in the education and socialization of our daughters.  I just don't think we have gone far enough.  ~Donna
  • Avion22Avion22 member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    Donna, it's interesting that you say that.   I wrote my undergraduate thesis in Enginnering on biological and societal factors that prevent women from entering science and engineering career fields.  In middle and high school, girls usually out-perform boys in math and science, but fewer choose to major in these subjects in college, and even fewer go on to choose technical career fields.  It's interesting:-)
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  • edited December 2011
    I've had several classes in the last year or so that discussed this issue.  While it's true that many women don't have the same bargaining skills as men, when women are strong about bargaining they are viewed and judged differently than a man.  Women are judged as being a bitch, being overly pushy or agressive. 

    Men and women who act and perform in the same way are judged by two comparisons, not just one.  Women are judged as women and men are judged as men, if that makes sense to you. 

    There are so many factors that go into all of this, it can be mind boggling.  Great discussion and I enjoyed reading all of your posts.
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