To all of you...

BoraBora00

Thank you all for your advice.

right1thistime

I think that you don't need attendants at a vow renewal.

MikesAngie

What you are planning is a vow renewal and you do not need attendants for that.

Maid of Honor is an unmarried woman, Matron of Honor is a married woman. 

handfast4me

Dude, etiquette is mostly about seating?  What?   I have no words.  I'm on team don't be a ninny.  That's the only word I could think of that the knot would allow. Ninny. 

MikesAngie

Oh Handfast, you mean you weren't going to go down the PPD road - she did elope and wants the PPD complete with attendants and to be the "bride"  - she already was a bride just not in the big hoopla way.

Ninny's good... I thought of a few words too - shallow was one, perhaps uneducated... But hey Ninny works! 

BoraBora00

Well, thank you for your advice and I would NOT say I am a ninny simply because I don't have the luxury of sitting down and dithering over who sits where, and who's name goes first on a placecard. That doesn't mean to say that I don't respect etiqutte, I think that it's a bit of a lost art, really, I simply believe that it often bears too much emhasis when it comes to weddings.

Avion22

Think of how awful your friend would feel if you "un-asked her" to be your MOH. That's a horrible thing to do!!!!!

right1thistime

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_is-it-okay-to-change-my-moh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:c08879c1-07a5-4720-9032-3d0ce604898dPost:a10d254c-04e3-48fc-ba8f-baa813c89b91">Re: Is it okay to change my MOH?</a>:
[QUOTE]Well, thank you for your advice and I would NOT say I am a ninny simply because I don't have the luxury of sitting down and dithering over who sits where, and who's name goes first on a placecard. That doesn't mean to say that I don't respect etiqutte, I think that it's a bit of a lost art, really, I simply believe that it often bears too much emhasis when it comes to weddings.
Posted by BoraBora00[/QUOTE]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uuqXXT7VYo" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uuqXXT7VYo</a>

missv19732000

People come to these boards for advice and support.  I don't feel it's appropriate to call someone a name under any circumstances.  If you wouldn't want to be called a ninny to your face, then why do it to someone else via the internet?  Smh
Bora Bora you handled that well.  I would not have been so polite. 

jennylee813

Since this isn't technically a second wedding, you do not require a bridal party, traditional dress (aka, big, pouffy white gown), showers or even an 'official' ceremony. You are talking about a vow renewal, unless you and your husband are planning to get divorced and remarried next year.

If you look on other boards, you will find that this is a very hotly debated topic.

You will also find that un-asking or un-inviting someone to be a part of your bridal party is a friendship ending move. Bridesmaids are required to show up at the wedding wearing the dress. That is all. They have no other responsibilities.

But for a vow renewal, this is moot.

sarabellam

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_is-it-okay-to-change-my-moh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:35Discussion:c08879c1-07a5-4720-9032-3d0ce604898dPost:a10d254c-04e3-48fc-ba8f-baa813c89b91">Re: Is it okay to change my MOH?</a>:
[QUOTE]Well, thank you for your advice and I would NOT say I am a ninny simply because<strong> I don't have the luxury of sitting down and dithering over who sits where</strong>, and who's name goes first on a placecard. That doesn't mean to say that I don't respect etiqutte, I think that it's a bit of a lost art, really, I simply believe that it often bears too much emhasis when it comes to weddings.
Posted by BoraBora00[/QUOTE]

You are confusing etiquette for protocol.

mandi195

FWIW, etiquette isn't "mostly about seating"...  and replacing your MOH is a friendship ending move, so if you are ok with losing a close friend, go for it! smh

MikesAngie

In Response to Is it okay to change my MOH?:
[QUOTE]Okay, so, we eloped because we couldn't afford a ceremony, but before that I had asked on of my BFFs to be my MOH, and we are having a reception/ ceremony sometime this next spring for all our family and friends that really wanted to be there. And the girl I asked to be my MOH is getting married before then now anyway. So I was wondering If it would be okay to ask annother of my BFFs to be my MOH since 1. She is still going to be a "maid" 2. She is a bit more reliable when it comes to communicating when I need her and 3. she won't be busy planing her own little nest. I'm not sure if this counts as a "Second Wedding" or not but I figured here was better than ettiqute because that is mostly about seating anyway.
Posted by BoraBora00[/QUOTE]

First eloping still requires a ceremony - so you had a ceremony it was not with all the bells and whistles that the Wedding Industry would like you to have had since it lines their pockets.  If you are married at the end of the day you had a wedding and that included the ceremony.

A vow renewal so close to the elopement date looks like a PPD (Pretty Princess Day), and a bit gift grabby. The more polite thing to do would be hold and anniversary party and let guests share in your joy of being married.  If you do plan on renewing your vows that isn't a do-over and doesn't necessitate attendants, gowns and all the bells and whistles you opted out of by not waiting and saving up for the wedding you wanted.

Anyone that is so shallow to think that a MOH has to be a maid that she's willing to use her dear friend's marriage to rule her out of the wedding party isn't a true friend any way and is behaving like a ninny. 

danielleper03

et·i·quette

   [et-i-kit, -ket] Show IPA

noun

1.

conventional requirements as to social behavior; proprieties of conduct as established in any class or community or for any occasion.

2.

a prescribed or accepted code of usage in matters of ceremony, as at a court or in official or other formal observances.

Etiquette encompasses all parts of your wedding. Dinner is one. Invitations is another. Repect is huge. So:


Well, not exactly anyway

Miss Esa

You don't need attendants at a vow renewal.

nraymond1

Oh my, sounds like we're all over the place on this one.

I had a friend as a bride's maid for my first wedding who was really terrible, she complained about anything I asked her to do and I ended up having to do it all on my own, even finding her a dress (we didn't have united dresses, just a color theme). 

I think if you want a maid of honor, then have one. What her duties entail will likely be different from a wedding and a vow renewal but so what?

I'd say you'd want to really step delicately, though. I wouldn't suggest using the "not a maid" argument as that'd probably piss me off but i think it's totally fair to say 'hey, i know you're starting your new life and won't have the time to spend to help me with this but i want you to know that i care about your feelings and if you think you can handle these tasks (detail them so she gets the picture) then i'd love to still have you.' probably she'll want to bow out but if not she's at least got expectations outlined for her.

jennylee813

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_is-it-okay-to-change-my-moh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:35Discussion:c08879c1-07a5-4720-9032-3d0ce604898dPost:1b86b08e-ec1b-4357-805d-0edea51e0b5b">Re: Is it okay to change my MOH?</a>:
[QUOTE]Oh my, sounds like we're all over the place on this one. I had a friend as a bride's maid for my first wedding who was really terrible, <strong>she complained about anything I asked her to do and I ended up having to do it all on my own,</strong> even finding her a dress (we didn't have united dresses, just a color theme).  I think if you want a maid of honor, then have one. What her duties entail will likely be different from a wedding and a vow renewal but so what? I'd say you'd want to really step delicately, though. I wouldn't suggest using the "not a maid" argument as that'd probably piss me off but i think it's totally fair to say 'hey, i know you're starting your new life <strong>and won't have the time to spend to help me with this but i want you to know that i care about your feelings and if you think you can handle these tasks (detail them so she gets the picture)</strong> then i'd love to still have you.' probably she'll want to bow out but if not she's at least got expectations outlined for her.
Posted by nraymond1[/QUOTE]

Again. There is no "handling of tasks" - she just has to show up. The idea that bridesmaids have to help plan the wedding, host showers and parties, address invites etc is wrong. These people are your <em>friends</em>, not thehelp. If you need someone to do things for you, hire a wedding coordinator. That's what they're for.

right1thistime

Gee, I was a single mother of 2 teenagers, working full time plus in an executive position, caring for my elderly mother, managing a household, active in my community, representing my neighborhood in town government issues while planning my wedding.  And I certainly found time to coordinate a seating plan for my guests that was comfortable & pleasant.  My MOH was not a single mother, but all the rest applied to her as well.  My expectation was that she would be at the rehearsal & the wedding, and if the rehearsal had been too much- she's been walking for enough years that I would trust her to use her skills at the wedding without a practice. 

And FWIW, telling someone to not be a ninny, when they ask if they should make a particular move is NOT the same thing as calling someone a name. 

missv19732000

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_is-it-okay-to-change-my-moh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:35Discussion:c08879c1-07a5-4720-9032-3d0ce604898dPost:62f22b73-e5c6-4839-96f3-610d04d8306b">Re: Is it okay to change my MOH?</a>:
[QUOTE]Gee, I was a single mother of 2 teenagers, working full time plus in an executive position, caring for my elderly mother, managing a household, active in my community, representing my neighborhood in town government issues while planning my wedding.  And I certainly found time to coordinate a seating plan for my guests that was comfortable & pleasant.  My MOH was not a single mother, but all the rest applied to her as well.  My expectation was that she would be at the rehearsal & the wedding, and if the rehearsal had been too much- she's been walking for enough years that I would trust her to use her skills at the wedding without a practice.  <strong>And FWIW, telling someone to not be a ninny, when they ask if they should make a particular move is NOT the same thing as calling someone a name.</strong> 
Posted by right1thistime[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>If someone told <em>me </em>not to be a ninny it would be a way of calling me a ninny.  I can't be the only one who would feel that way.  If so, then call it a difference of opinion.  

</div>

handfast4me

For the record, if she was in front of me irl, i would tell her she was being more than foolish, which happens to be the definition of ninny. Your doover for your ppd is the other thing I'm giving the side eye. And assuming that your friends have been selected to be servants is beyond comprehension.

nraymond1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_is-it-okay-to-change-my-moh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:35Discussion:c08879c1-07a5-4720-9032-3d0ce604898dPost:16d7d507-079e-4ab9-86e2-22746aec1a8a">Re: Is it okay to change my MOH?</a>:
[QUOTE]I had a friend as a bride's maid for my first wedding who was really terrible, she complained about anything I asked her to do I'm not surprised she complained.  You shouldn't have asked her to do anything. The person you should ask for help is YOUR FIANCE.  You are marrying him, not your wedding party.  Do you always use your friends as unpaid labor for the planning of a social function?  Your wedding is a social function.  Don't ask them to work this, either. Asking someone to purchase attire for a vow renewal is asking too much from a friend.  This is a vow renewal, *not* a wedding.  Bridal parties, showers, bachelorette parties, first dances, bouquet tosses, etc., are for weddings, not an anniversary.
Posted by RetreadBride[/QUOTE]

<div>Wow, somehow this got kind of rude. At the time, my fiance was in boot camp so it wasn't really an option to ask him for help. And I disagree, I think there are certain responsibilities of a bride's maid, which I made very clear to my bride's maids when I asked them. If they didn't like that idea, they shouldn't have agreed to do it. And the main point I had was that I had to track her down a dress because she couldn't be bothered to find one even given extremely lax guidelines. </div><div>I don't think there's anything wrong with asking friends for help. I've never asked anyone to do anything for me I wouldn't do for them and in this case I'd done quite a bit to be there for her. </div><div>BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ASKING FOR A FAVOR AND DEMANDING FREE LABOR! SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE IS THE KIND OF PERSON WHOCOULD BE THERE A BIT MORE FOR THEIR FRIENDS INSTEAD OF ATTACKING OTHER PEOPLE'S FRIENDSHIPS!</div>

RebeccaB88

I wouldn't have said yes to being your MOH in the first place, because you don't need one for a fake wedding.  You're already married. 

And if I had said yes and you kicked me out because I'm not working hard enough for you, then we wouldn't be friends anymore. 

This whole situation is all kinds of wrong.

Amanda1443994

I don't have a problem with your celebration after your ceremony. But I don't think you should replace your MOH. I'm sure she would be extremely hurt and it could possibly ruin your friendship. As RetreadBride said, put yourself in her shoes. How would you feel?

jennylee813

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_is-it-okay-to-change-my-moh?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:35Discussion:c08879c1-07a5-4720-9032-3d0ce604898dPost:569755b8-f60f-4cbd-8667-384a8640ff19">Re: Is it okay to change my MOH?</a>:
[QUOTE]The tradition of bridesmaids is rooted in superstition.  The bride's friends accompanied her to church in order to confuse watching demons as to the bride's identity, so they couldn't curse her marriage.  It evolved into a way for people to honor special friends. Saying "my friends shouldn't have accepted if they weren't willing to work my wedding" is appalling.  That is NO WAY to treat a friend.  It is not an honor or a privilege to do things for you on their own time and expense. Having your fiance in boot camp is not an excuse. Hire a wedding planner. Contrary to popular belief, they don't cost a fortune. I planned my first wedding by myself because my fiance was away at grad school.  I didn't drive at the time, and was on crutches because of a knee injury.  I hobbled all over downtown Austin on a bus to interview vendors.  It was my responsibility and no one else's. The only thing you should do with those lists of duties that you see on wedding websites and in bridal mags is throw them in the trash.   Weddings are very much an industry, which does its best to convince you, from cradle onward, that this is The! Most! Important! Day! Of! Your! Life! and that it's all about you, the bride. They want your friends to believe that they're "bad" friends if they aren't willing to spend, spend, spend on attire, jewelry, shoes, and parties.  All those things pump more money back into the industry.   Stop and ask yourself a question: did I ask my bridesmaids to be in my wedding because I wouldn't dream of getting married unless they were standing beside me? Or did I  pick them because of what I think they'll do for me?   Their real responsibility: get the dress and show up sober for the wedding.   <strong>Your real responsibility: get married</strong>.   Remember that the wedding industry is finished with you once the wedding is over. They can't make more money off you, so could care less if you offended your friends and trashed your relationships over the One Perfect Day they spent millions in advertising to convince you was your right  
Posted by RetreadBride[/QUOTE]

All of this is correct. But here's the kicker OP: you are ALREADY married.

Therefore you are planning a PPD and nothing more. If you want to have a celebration, go for it, but that means NO attendants, NO white dress, NO ceremony (you have already had that), NO gifts, NO showers, NO first dance or cake cutting or bouquet toss ...

Get the idea?

handfast4me

For the record, I never called her a ninny. I wrote "I'm on team don't be a ninny." Also, the definition of a ninny is one who acts foolish. Reading comprehension is under rated.

nraymond1

I'm so disappointed in the thread. I really got the impression this would be an accepting place where women facing a second marriage could share what can be a very challenging, stressful situation. Instead, everything I see is rules about what you're allowed or not allowed to do. I'd have thought we'd all have learned our lesson after a first marriage that rules are made to be broken and none of the things that seem so important beforehand end up really mattering at all in the end. 

If someone wants to have a wedding reception, a full on wedding to follow family tradition, what have you, we should be supportive!

Also, moderator, if you're going to put someone's statements in quotes, please take a second to actually get the original words right. I didn't expect my bridesmaids to "work for me", but I did know it was something I'd need help with, and friends and families are supposed to be there to help each other. Again, I didn't ask anyone to do anything I hadn't explained in the beginning and I'd do the same and more for any of them. That's caring. And while I was disappointed that they weren't more helpful, I'm still close with them and didn't hold a grudge. I'm curious how you got to be a moderator being so nasty to people.

nraymond1

RetreadBride, I'm very curious what personal attack you feel I made. I am genuinely curious how one gets to be a moderator. My assumption would be that the role is designed to keep people on topic or from getting too rude with each other. 

I looked into this whole etiquette thing. While the definition I saw was certainly correct, Emily Post specifies that these are GUIDELINES and that they should never be enforced as though they were laws. She says that above all, it is most important to be courteous to each other. 

I strongly believe that it's up to each person to determine what's right for them, wedding or no wedding. While we can certainly give our opinions when they're asked for, I think it's crazy to get bent out of shape is someone decides not to follow your advice. Etiquette has so many rules, that it seems a bit hypocritical to ignore some (how many of us are wearing white? apparently true etiquette dictates if you're divorced you're not even supposed to have a ceremony at all for the second one (which I whole-heartedly disagree with)) and then turn around and seeth when someone doesn't follow one tha you think they should. 

RetreadBride, you said "We will be supportive to other brides, but we will NOT enable etiquette breaches that are rude to one's family and friends." I really don't think it's our place to tolerate it or not, it's up to that person's family and friends to tolerate it or not, not for us to pass judgement. 

nraymond1

I would have thought saying "I really don't think it's our place to tolerate it or not, it's up to that person's family and friends to tolerate it or not, not for us to pass judgement." would have been an inclusive and considerate comment to make. I'm all for people expressing opinions, but there's a huge difference between an opinion and/or educating and "tolerating" which to me has some much harsher implications.

I've come to this board because I'm having my second wedding in June following the death of my first husband. I was attracted to it mainly because of that list of what's "normal" for this group, which I found really helpful and supportive. As I've said, I was hoping based on that that this would be a supportive place where people could ask questions and share concerns. I've happened to find two threads (this is one) where I didn't see that as much and felt the need to comment. 

One of those "Normal" list things I'd like to point out is "Its normal to read the etiquette posts and want to cry". All I'm trying to say is that maybe we can be a bit more gentle with each other. Express our opinions, sure, but keep in mind we're all in the same boat and it's not easy for most of us. I'm all for educating people about etiquette or what have you, but it's been my experience that it's harder for people to absorb a lesson or an opinion when they FEEL it was delivered aggressively. (This may not be how it's meant, but if that's how it comes across to others, it may just be worth taking a step back and thinking about it from another point of view, maybe re-wording what you meant more gently to get your point across.) I'm not suggesting anyone censor themselves, just maybe re-evaluate your delivery so you can feel understood and the person it's directed at can be informed and not hurt or offended.

nraymond1

Thank you.