Second Weddings

"Be More Ladylike" Antifeminist??

So, what exactly does that phrase mean?  'Be more ladylike"  "Act like a lady"  "Ladies don't..."

In the era of lords and ladies, the women were expected to be pale, anatomically impossibly small waisted, vapid and have no opinions.  Ladies were expected to have men fight their battles, cover their puddles and open their carriage doors.  Women couldn't open their legs to sit on a horse, nevermind choose who to have sex with.  Ladies were expected to only make choices about fabric for their gowns and drapes (and even then, the men would bring them the fabrics they could choose from; and what jewel to wear to this evening's cotillion.  Women had no opinions in economics, finance, politics or law.  The word hysterical was coined to blame the presence of a uterus for a women's emotions, particularly if she were angry or upset.   

In today's times, the admonishment to be more ladylike is often used to put a women with a defined opinon, or a strong argument or a sense of vehemence in her "place".  That place being the unheard-from corner.  When a woman commentator shares her emotion charged opinion, she gets called a harpy, or another equally negative name. And it is suggested she be more lady like. As in quiet, demure and silenced.

So what do you think?  Is there a place for the "act like a lady" in today's society?  And is that a place where we want our daughters to be?  ~Donna

Re: "Be More Ladylike" Antifeminist??

  • handfast4mehandfast4me member
    Seventh Anniversary 1000 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011

    Good discussion Donna--I need to start another one, from a comment I keep seeing on this board, but I'll save it for another day.

    While on the surface it SEEMS ok to "act like a lady" if we extrapolate, it doesn't work in the real world. 

    Let me give you an example. My work has largely been in areas that were male-dominated in years past.  I'm not a pioneer, but have followed closely behind those poineering women.  If I didn't learn how to swear (literally!) I could not have performed the job.  I had to take a de-sensitization class to speak to folks about their body parts, etc.  I would never have had the guts to say those words to my clients before that training.  When I first started, I used the medical terms, and, as I had been warned, the clients hadn't a clue.  So I had to use the street language.  If I had continued to "act like a lady" I would have been fired.   

    So that's just an example.  Acting like a lady does NOT get one equal pay, opportunities, or the right of ownership. 

    I think it's not so much acting like a lady but to being kind to others.  So, I try not to use the language that others may consider vulgar when I drop a can of peas on my toes.  But, dang, I sure do use it onstage during my comedy act because it works.  It gets laughs, and that's what I'm there to do.  Just like during my day job I was expected to teach folks how NOT to get infected. 

    I also will open doors for other (male, female, young, old) which isn't really acting like a lady, but being kind.  (I resist the word polite, as what is polite in one society--looking right into the eyes when listening to someone, for example--is impolite and thought to be disrespectful in others.) 

    I also do not think that acting like a lady necessarily gets through to those that are not as uh, well, uh, hmmm, eh,well-read as others on this board.  Most times I've found that subtlety doesn't work, here or IRL.  You have to bang 'em over the head with it.  Even on this very board I was kind to people that I thought were idiots, and eventually it blew up in my face.    Since that time, I have much less patience and just give it to 'em with both barrels from the start.  No sense in lulling them into a false sense of security. 

    On a related, but distant note, have you heard of the warrior gene?   

    Just a few thoughts to begin with--you know me, I'll probalby have more later.  :-)

    image Don't mess with the old dogs; age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill! BS and brilliance only come with age and experience.
  • Lisa50Lisa50 member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011

    Is there a place for the "act like a lady" in today's society?  Absolutely, there is a place for one to act like a lady in today's society.  It doesn't mean strapping on a corset and keeping one's mouth shut, either.  As a martial arts instructor, a huge part of my curriculum is teaching boys and girls (men and women) how act like ladies and gentlemen.  I teach them to be respectful, polite, look one another in the eyes, give a firm handshake, listen and a lot of other things that many parents seem to have forgotten how to teach.

    And is that a place where we want our daughters to be?  I do not have a daughter, so that may rule me out.  However, as the mother of a son, I have certainly taught him how to act like a gentleman.  I have taught him how to be respectful, courteous and a lot of other things that set him apart from most of his peers.  He's the guy who got the page assignment with the Senate Majority Leader.  He's the guy that won the award for leadership in the classroom, on the field, in his Church and in his community.

    Does he cut up and act like a typical 18 year old when he's with his friends?  Of course!  Here's the deal -- he knows how to act like a gentleman in situations where appropriate.  I would hope that I'd have raised a daughter in the same way -- to know how to act, where, when and with whom.

    So, exactly what does the phrase mean?  To me, it means acting respectful (to others and to yourself) and polite, showing proper decorum that matches the situation at hand.

  • 2dBride2dBride member
    2500 Comments Fourth Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    I seriously dislike the word "ladylike," because it implies that there is a different standard of conduct for women than for men.  If "ladylike" and "gentlemanly" mean the exact same thing, why have two different words?  To the extent we want people to be respectful and polite to one another, that should apply equally to men and women.
  • redheadtmkredheadtmk member
    500 Comments
    edited December 2011
    To me ladylike means most of what has been stated but with things like keep your legs together when you are wearing a skirt. ie. when you get out of a car, sit in chair etc. 
  • Sue-n-KevinSue-n-Kevin member
    Seventh Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    To me ladylike means most of what has been stated but with things like keep your legs together when you are wearing a skirt. ie. when you get out of a car, sit in chair etc. 

    Above is what I think when I hear "Ladylike".

    I do have a daughter, my 16 y/o MOH.  I constantly have to remind her to put her legs together. Trust me, she is NOT demure, LOL.

    To me, "ladylike" and "gentlemanly" mean exhibiting civility. I don't tend to think it means being put in your place. Like many here I grew up during the 60's and 70's and I abhor the way some of today's kids treat people.

    Example: My daughter recently felt dissed by her best friend when her friend changed their plans yet again. Apparently this has happened often. So they started texting each other madly, and in the end are apparently no longer friends (I assume until school starts, when they will be in the same classes). I tried to have a heart to heart with her, but I'm "old fashioned" (another label that has many connotations, LOL) in her mind. My points to her were that a "best friend" isn't someone that comes & goes with a whim. It's someone who is there for you even when you don't see them every day. I also expressed my displeasure at today's methods of communicating via texts and Facebook pages...........words on a page do not translate the same way as a call or face to face. TALK to your friend, tell her what you are thinking. Don't do it in text soundbites.

    After all of above she informs me that her "date" now for the wedding is someone else...........while this "someone else" friend is HERE! In front of that friend I explained all of the above again, and said it's really not polite to "un-invite" someone you've already invited...........hell, I bought this former best friend's dress for MY wedding because her family doesn't have a lot of money! So NOW she's not coming? I told her that yes, her new "date" or "plus 1" can come, but that I'd leave it open for the other (apparently former) best friend to come as well. If they become friends again, fine, but she cannot continue to invite and un-invite HER friends to MY wedding! Attending MY wedding is NOT a reward for being your friend! Sheesh!

    In summary, teaching ladylike behavior is a lifelong mission for those of us with daughters, LOL.
  • cgeithmancgeithman member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    To me ladylike means most of what has been stated but with things like keep your legs together when you are wearing a skirt. ie. when you get out of a car, sit in chair etc. 

    This. If I say "act like a lady," it basically means "don't act like a hooker."
    Wedding Countdown Ticker
  • edited December 2011
    Thanks for picking up the thread, since I did a post and run.  Retread, you are quite right, the post was inspired by your comments, but "aimed at you" presumes malice that was not intended.  You are the mod of the board, and have the authority and responsibility to require compliance with the TOS.  Your standard line, to remember that we are ladies, rubs me the wrong way, and this post is intended to discuss that. 

    2D, you stated that ladylike and gentlemanly are essentially the same thing.  I disagree, even in 2011.  While, yes, gentlemanly included civility and politeness, such behavior is not above using power to defend a weaker person, typically a woman, or to defend one's rights or property.  I do not see that use of power as included in the
    colloquial usage of acting ladylike. 

    I have to post & run again, but will come back with more thoughts.  Thanks for the discussion!  ~Donna
  • 2dBride2dBride member
    2500 Comments Fourth Anniversary 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_second-weddings_ladylike-antifeminist?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:35Discussion:fe8b4d30-4167-447b-9161-b5cafca34c7aPost:678a1de2-dbe7-45cf-a0e4-3b9ce3d382ae">Re: "Be More Ladylike" Antifeminist??</a>:
    [QUOTE]Thanks for picking up the thread, since I did a post and run.  Retread, you are quite right, the post was inspired by your comments, but "aimed at you" presumes malice that was not intended.  You are the mod of the board, and have the authority and responsibility to require compliance with the TOS.  Your standard line, to remember that we are ladies, rubs me the wrong way, and this post is intended to discuss that.  2D, you stated that ladylike and gentlemanly are essentially the same thing.  I disagree, even in 2011.  While, yes, gentlemanly included civility and politeness, such behavior is not above using power to defend a weaker person, typically a woman, or to defend one's rights or property.  I do not see that use of power as included in the colloquial usage of acting ladylike.  I have to post & run again, but will come back with more thoughts.  Thanks for the discussion!  ~Donna
    Posted by right1thistime[/QUOTE]That gets back to the reason I dislike use of the term "ladylike."  If using one's power to defend someone weaker is an admirable characteristic (and I think it is), why would it be less necessary for a woman than for a man?  After all, it is quite possible for a woman to be physically fit enough to help someone (male or female) weaker than herself. 

    I favor using terms that are not dependent on gender.  By having two different terms, the implication is that some things that are expected of a man are not expected of a woman, and vice versa.
  • edited December 2011

    So I jut perused a list of "women who are motivational".  I didn't look at ONE of those names and have 'ladylike" come to mind.  Amelia Earhart, Corazon Aquino, Marie Curie, Florence Nightingale, Lucille Ball, Coco Chanel were some I remember.  Inspiring, risk taking, on the cutting edge, interesting-- yes.  Ladylike?  No.

    When I think of first ladies - the ones who I think are great- Eleanor Roosevelt, Hillary Clinton, Betty Ford, Michelle Obama-  while they are gentile, well mannered  and polite; ladylike is not the first adjective that comes to mind.  Barbara Bush, Laura Bush, Jacqueline Kennedy, Ladybird Johnson are more the image of ladylike to me.  Women who stayed in the shadows.  Who fulfilled their wifely duties, but not too outspoken or independent.  Not my personal role models, for sure. 

    Then there is your most recent comment,Retread,  in which you ask who the board would prefer not to be.  I have to tell you, if you are truly looking for the term bitches, but think it too vulgar for the knot's purposes, I have just as much issue with that word.  A bitch is a female dog.  It was coined as a slur to degrade women.  The behavioral characteristics that often are called bitchy are direct, confrontational, hard edged and intense.  There's a book titled something like
    Getting in Touch with Your Inner Bitch.  It basically advises women to use these traditional male characteristics to their own advantage.  There was a chapter on management that was entitled, "If they call you a bitch, you are doing a good job."  In many industries, similar to what handfast wrote above, women had to act in the male model or be unsuccessful.  And many were titled bitches because of it. 

    So you want to know what this board shouldn't be?  It shouldn't be anything less than what the real world asks of us. It asks us to be honest, direct and clear. The board shouldn't support that wedding industry propelled notions of what a wedding has to be to be considered "real", the Knot necessities that are not necessities. It shouldn't be a place to seek affirmation, but rather a place to get multiple viewpoints on topics that are complex and not unidimensional.  It shouldn't be a place to hear the same old same old, but rather a place where the collective wisdom of dozens of women can be shared and tapped into.  Does that mean that there is only one right answer to any question?  Nope. 

    Retread, you know as well as anyone that this board has been targeted HARD in the past by real trolls, who hurt people in real life.  I will remain suspicious of posts that look like, sound like and smell like MUD.  And I will react to those posts in a variety of ways, which may include sarcasm and satire.   Rather than making generic commentary, if you want to moderate the behavior, my advice to you would be to copy & paste what you don't like and define, based on the rules that you are assigned to uphold, why you don't like it.  You can expect that I will disagree with you at times, which doesn't make you wrong or me disagreeable, but it makes both of us better in the long run.   I've seen you use that tactic plenty of times, and it is the most effective.  And frankly, letting heated discourse run its course is not a bad thing, most often, if a party in that decides to leave the path of logic and debate and sally into making derogatory personal remarks, they have quite clearly run out of argument and supporting statements, and will prove the opposing point all by themself.  ~Donna

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