Religious Issues

Alexakatz

Hi everyone!

So to preface this, I should say I'm not engaged yet. It's coming soon, and my boyfriend and I know that we plan on having an evening affair the summer of 2014. With that being said, a very good friend of mine has recently become extremely religious Judaism. I want my wedding to be at 6:00 at night on a Saturday, but she would have to leave with her hubby and son my godson to go to a temple to celebrate the ending of Shabbat since I don't plan on having a typical, 'traditional' Jewish ceremony. She's even gone so far as to say they're no longer eating hot meals out vegetarian or otherwise, NO EXCEPTIONS, unless its kosher. I was a bridesmaid at her wedding and, as I've mentioned, her son is my godson.

How do I approach this topic with her? I would love her to be in my bridal party, but not if she's going to have to leave for at least an hour, and when I know she's going to be upset finding a kosher venue isn't at the top of my priority list.

Thanks!!

vanityink

1, Don't ask your bridal party until about 8 months out before your wedding. You aren't engaged yet. Don't worry about it. For Summer 2014, you've got about a year to see how things gp.

2. If it's going to conflict with her religious beliefs, you might have to accept she'll decline being a BM. People are perfectly allowed to decline being in a wedding party. 

Alexakatz

It's not that I'm worried about her declining. I'd be more than happy if that were the only thing. I don't know how to approach her about it, even, without her getting upset that I'm not taking her religious needs into consideration. It's sort of like being between a rock and a hard place if I ask her but she has to decline because I 'didn't think of her' she's pissed at me, and if I don't ask her at all, I end up in the same boat.

[Deleted User]

Ok, so this is, like others said, WAY far away...get engaged and pick a bridal party 6-8 months out. BUT, for when that moment does arise, can you ask venues you look at if they would be able to have a kosher meal delivered for that family from a local kosher restaurant? My brother in law's brother has very specific diet restrictions. When he and my sister got married, they made sure that the venue was ok with them bringing in a special meal from outside for him. They still had to pay for his plate in the head count, but the venue had no problem with some delivery food being brought to accomodate the particular dietary needs.

As for the asking her her to be bridesmaid, I'd just approach it by saying you'd love for her to join, but this is what the ceremony is going to be like and when it's going to be. If she declines, stress you'd love to still have her come, even if she has to leave for a span of time for Shabbat, and, again, as per above, that you will do everything you can do accomodate her dietary needs.

kmmssg

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:d3849b2f-d72a-4ae7-b723-816114fe7853">Re:Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't see either of these as a huge deal. Plenty of people only eat kosher, and if we could find a way to have kosher food at our wedding in <strong><em><u>bumfuck nowhere, Arkansas,</u></em></strong> I'm sure you can find a way to have a kosher meal provided for her family. It doesn't mean your entire wedding has to be kosher. As for leaving, unless she has to leave DURING the ceremony, who cares? You'll be so busy with your other guests at your reception that I promise you'll barely even notice if she leaves for a bit. Honestly, it sounds like you disapprove of her religious choices and are upset that your friend has so drastically changed. But this is not a big deal, and if you want to keep this relationship, you're going to have to learn to work with her lifestyle choices on occasion.
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>So Stage - is that anywhere near Toadsuck?  That is my favorite name for a town ever. :)

</div>

GoodLuckBear14

<div align="left">In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:d3849b2f-d72a-4ae7-b723-816114fe7853">Re:Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't see either of these as a huge deal. Plenty of people only eat kosher, and if we could find a way to have kosher food at our wedding in bumfuck nowhere, Arkansas, I'm sure you can find a way to have a kosher meal provided for her family. It doesn't mean your entire wedding has to be kosher. As for leaving, unless she has to leave DURING the ceremony, who cares? You'll be so busy with your other guests at your reception that I promise you'll barely even notice if she leaves for a bit. Honestly, it sounds like you disapprove of her religious choices and are upset that your friend has so drastically changed. But this is not a big deal, and if you want to keep this relationship, you're going to have to learn to work with her lifestyle choices on occasion.
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]

This.  Finding a kosher meal in NJ is not a problem. I can't think of a single part of the state where you can't get one.  And you don't notice who leaves your reception early.  I agree with Stage that it sounds like her new devotion is bugging the crap out of you.</div>

Jen4948

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:1e52efd9-59a5-4630-add4-ef1461079d0e">Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]Hi everyone! So to preface this, I should say I'm not engaged yet. It's coming soon, and my boyfriend and I know that we plan on having an evening affair the summer of 2014. With that being said, a very good friend of mine has recently become extremely religious Judaism. I want my wedding to be at 6:00 at night on a Saturday, but she would have to leave with her hubby and son my godson to go to a temple to celebrate the ending of Shabbat since I don't plan on having a typical, 'traditional' Jewish ceremony. She's even gone so far as to say they're no longer eating hot meals out vegetarian or otherwise, NO EXCEPTIONS, unless its kosher. I was a bridesmaid at her wedding and, as I've mentioned, her son is my godson. How do I approach this topic with her? I would love her to be in my bridal party, but not if she's going to have to leave for at least an hour, and when I know she's going to be upset finding a kosher venue isn't at the top of my priority list. Thanks!!
Posted by Alexakatz[/QUOTE]

Advice from one who is Jewish:

Plan your wedding as you see fit (get engaged first, of course), and then let your friend know what you have planned.  If it really means that much to her to be your bridesmaid, then she'll agree.  If she demands concessions in exchange, then you'll need to think about whether or not you want to make them.

As far as food goes, if she refuses to eat anything at your wedding, I'd leave that one alone because very religious Jews often do refuse to take chances on food they can't be positive is adequately kosher according to their standards-especially when the food offered is not billed as "glatt kosher"-and even then, they often want their own person (known as a mashgiach) along to check.  So, she'll probably want to eat on her own time and dime.  Let that one go.

As for the timing, that's the one where she'll have to decide between the religious service and your wedding.  You're not required to schedule your wedding to accommodate her-especially if doing so inconveniences everyone else you want to invite.  But if she refuses to make an exception for you and her being there throughout is important to you, I think you'd better not ask her to be your bridesmaid.

Viczaesar

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:845b52d0-da75-4b4a-b01e-98087ce37f1d">Re: Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Religious Issues : Advice from one who is Jewish: Plan your wedding as you see fit (get engaged first, of course), and then let your friend know what you have planned.  If it really means that much to her to be your bridesmaid, then she'll agree.  If she demands concessions in exchange, then you'll need to think about whether or not you want to make them. As far as food goes, if she refuses to eat anything at your wedding, I'd leave that one alone because very religious Jews often do refuse to take chances on food they can't be positive is adequately kosher according to their standards-especially when the food offered is not billed as "glatt kosher"-and even then, they often want their own person (known as a mashgiach) along to check.  So, she'll probably want to eat on her own time and dime.  Let that one go. As for the timing, that's the one where she'll have to decide between the religious service and your wedding.  You're not required to schedule your wedding to accommodate her-especially if doing so inconveniences everyone else you want to invite.  But if she refuses to make an exception for you and her being there throughout is important to you, I think you'd better not ask her to be your bridesmaid.
Posted by Jen4948[/QUOTE]
RE the food - that depends very much on the individual.  She should ask her friend if she wants a kosher meal and let friend decide.

Jen4948

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:4fc6a639-24b5-4fd0-8fb4-81cdc6ac1833">Re: Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Religious Issues : RE the food - that depends very much on the individual.  She should ask her friend if she wants a kosher meal and let friend decide.
Posted by Viczaesar[/QUOTE]

Actually, with very religious Jews, what I've said in my post holds.  If the OP asks her friend if she wants a kosher meal, someone who holds to that degree of Judaism tends not to trust <strong>anyone</strong> who doesn't to provide them with a meal they consider adequately kosher-even if they are best friends.  So it makes more sense to just tell them what one is planning to serve and let that person decide if they can accept it.  Trying to please people who practice that degree of Judaism is really, really hard as well as expensive.  So I don't advise it.

[Deleted User]

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:9d6bbd40-7c36-41b4-a8b9-1653b5806306">Re: Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Religious Issues : Actually, with very religious Jews, what I've said in my post holds.  If the OP asks her friend if she wants a kosher meal, someone who holds to that degree of Judaism tends not to trust anyone who doesn't to provide them with a meal they consider adequately kosher-even if they are best friends.  So it makes more sense to just tell them what one is planning to serve and let that person decide if they can accept it.  Trying to please people who practice that degree of Judaism is really, really hard as well as expensive.  So I don't advise it.
Posted by Jen4948[/QUOTE]

This is why I suggested asking the venue if they're ok with outside food coming in. A woman I used to work with is EXTREMELY strict about being kosher. When we'd have big, department business lunches, she would order from a restaurant she knew and trusted and have that sent to wherever we were so that she could still eat and enjoy. So, if she could ask her friend if there are any restaurants in the area she would trust (or to try to find one), then they could still eat at the wedding.

Jen4948

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:b8dadcf7-d29c-4c79-a682-8376f8fbe97c">Re:Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Religious Issues: Yeah, sorry, no. If OP cannot find a place to get a kosher meal that her friend trusts, that's fine. Then friend can decide to not eat or whatever. But that does NOT mean she should just ignore it and not even try, any more than if it were a guest with a severe peanut allergy. You may be Jewish, but you're also a rude host if you "don't advise" trying to do what you can to be accommodating.
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]

Except:
1) We are not talking about a peanut allergy or anything of a lethal nature.
2) Unfortunately, the way extremely religious Jews live their lives don't allow hosts who are not of their caliber of Judaism, or Jewish at all, to be "polite" in the way you suggest.  They will not eat anything prepared by a non-Jew or anything that doesn't pass their own muster.  And they are extremely strict about what will pass it, and refuse to take any chances in order to avoid even the appearance of eating food they don't believe they can eat. 

So, it's not possible for anyone who doesn't believe as they do even to "try" to be what you call a "good host" for them by offering anything other than fruits and vegetables-they just won't accept it, period.  The OP can certainly "advise" her friend about what's available-but it would not surprise me if the friend won't accept it-or anything else the OP offers, because her beliefs won't permit her to do so.  For ultra-religious Jews, the rules of hospitality basically get turned on their heads-they want to be left alone in matters of food and not be "advised" as to what's available.

Jen4948

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:b4ea6a81-81f2-4852-a281-571b2d2a13ac">Re:Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]Jen, first of all, you keep speaking of "extreme" Jews as if they are all exactly the same. I understand what you're trying to say, but different individuals in different areas aren't all exactly the same people. Which is why we're saying to TALK to her and find out option. My guest, for example, was able to give us a list of kosher places he and his wife shop and eat. That doesn't make him any less devout because he was able to tell us where he trusted so we could buy it. Second, a religious restriction on food is every bit as important To THE GUEST as a physical allergy. It's easier for someone else to dismiss it because "oh, well it's not like they'll DIE from it", but to them, it's endangering their immortal soul, which is often an even BIGGER concern to the devoutly religious than physical danger.
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]


You're still missing my point though-which is not whether or not the person in question will die from eating whatever or how devout they are, but that orthodox Jews who choose to follow those rules won't accept hospitality in ANY form when it comes to food from others who do not also follow those rules.

Now repeating:  No matter what the OP tells the person in question, she's already made clear that she is not going to accept anything from her in the way of food other than fruits and vegetables-which is typical of Jews who have those particular beliefs.

Another thing:  Guests are often made <em>un</em>comfortable when their hosts try really, really hard to make them happy-especially if they arefeeling pressure to say yes just to make the host comfortable.  I've experienced that before, and it didn't even have anything to do with the kosher laws -just a relative who wouldn't take "no, thank you" for an answer. 

If this particular guest has indicated that all she wants and all she will eat is fruits and vegetables, and the OP keeps trying to offer her other foods, then whether or not she can eat them, having too many offers made to them can feel to them like being put under all that pressure to say at some point, "Yes, I can and will eat that," and it won't be a pleasant experience for her. I think it is a <em>breach</em> of hospitality to try to hard to make a guest comfortable once they've said "No, thank you."  Sometimes hosts just need to back off and let the guests make their own decisions about what they'll accept-even if the decision is: Nothing.

GoodLuckBear14

<div align="left">In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:da1f3977-f5e0-4553-b84e-b30c68fb59b3">Re:Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Religious Issues : You're still missing my point though-which is not whether or not the person in question will die from eating whatever or how devout they are, but that orthodox Jews who choose to follow those rules won't accept hospitality in ANY form when it comes to food from others who do not also follow those rules. Now repeating:  No matter what the OP tells the person in question, she's already made clear that she is not going to accept anything from her in the way of food other than fruits and vegetables-which is typical of Jews who have those particular beliefs. Another thing:  Guests are often made un comfortable when their hosts try really, really hard to make them happy-especially if they arefeeling pressure to say yes just to make the host comfortable.  I've experienced that before, and it didn't even have anything to do with the kosher laws -just a relative who wouldn't take "no, thank you" for an answer.  If this particular guest has indicated that all she wants and all she will eat is fruits and vegetables, and the OP keeps trying to offer her other foods, then whether or not she can eat them, having too many offers made to them can feel to them like being put under all that pressure to say at some point, "Yes, I can and will eat that," and it won't be a pleasant experience for her. I think it is a breach of hospitality to try to hard to make a guest comfortable once they've said "No, thank you."  Sometimes hosts just need to back off and let the guests make their own decisions about what they'll accept-even if the decision is: Nothing.
Posted by Jen4948[/QUOTE]

Or when the wedding gets closer many many months from now, OP can ask her friend to recommend a place that she does trust and order her and her family's meals from there.  Again, in NJ, this is not a search to the ends of the earth.  Or she could just ask her caterer to plan a raw meal.  Most nights in the summer, my dinner is just a really big salad.</div>

Jen4948

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_wedding-party_religious-issues?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:37Discussion:1d688f33-682b-4cb0-becc-fae870128fd2Post:38a126fa-7b43-45e1-ab6b-95c9486f9042">Re:Religious Issues</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Religious Issues : Or when the wedding gets closer many many months from now, OP can ask her friend to recommend a place that she does trust and order her and her family's meals from there.  Again, in NJ, this is not a search to the ends of the earth.  Or she could just ask her caterer to plan a raw meal.  Most nights in the summer, my dinner is just a really big salad.
Posted by GoodLuckBear14[/QUOTE]

"Just ordering" the food for her there may not be enough-there are also issues with delivery.  It can't get mixed up with any other order or even be handled by a non-practicing Jew of the appropriate degree of orthodoxy, plus there's also the issue of whether or not the venue or main caterer will allow it to be served. 

True, there are places in NJ like Lakewood with large Orthodox Jewish communities, so OP, you might look there.  But yeah, talk to your friend, but be prepared to accept "no" for an answer when it comes to food.

Jen4948

So, I'm confused. Are you calling me a liar and saying my situation did not happen? Or are you questioning the devotion of my orthodox Jewish friend because he was thrilled that we thought to ask him and able to give us suggestions that actually would accommodate him.

No, I'm doing neither.   You are the one being sarcastic and personally hostile to me, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.

You're Jewish, you're not a mind reader who knows the innermost thoughts of every single Orthodox Jew on the planet.

I have seen a lot of Orthodox Jews, and they do tend to react this way when presented with issues of hosting and food.   They are polite and gracious in their refusals, but they do not accept food from others.  It's a recurring pattern.  Your snideness here is uncalled for.

And if your friends get acutely uncomfortable and offended by someone ASKING a simple question, their religion isn't the issue. We're not advising OP to badger her friend relentlessly, but to simply say "here's our menu. I know you won't be able to eat any of it, so is there something we can do to provide dinner for you and your family or is it something you'd rather take care of on your own?"

I'm sure she's going to say, "No, there's nothing you can do, thank you for asking."  At which point, the OP needs to leave it alone, because pushing it any further could well make her friend uncomfortable, which is not appropriate hosting behavior.

Also, I'd love to know how you can definitively say that this friend has already made it clear to OP that she won't accept any food offered by OP when the post says jack all about them ever having a direct conversation about it or about her specific level of devotion.

The OP's post does say that she says, "No exceptions, this is what we do."  It's right there in black and white.  I'd say that constitutes "jack."

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