Let's talk about "submission."

naomikb

After yesterday's thread including referencing "willful, joyful submission" to our husbands' leadership and also a thread on the same subject on Unveiled Wife, I want to know your thoughts. Some things I want to know about (but feel free to discuss whatever):

What does the word "submission" mean to you?  How do you overcome its negative connotations?

Is your husband the "head" of your household or are you equal partners?

How does Ephesians 5 surface in your life/marriage? Do you consciously strive to fulfill what we are called to do in Ephesians 5 or are there other parameters/passages that speak to you more or you find more important/relevant/helpful?

BMcLeodTeam

Although I do believe that FI will be the head of our household, and it he makes a decision I will stand by him and follow him 100%, we do often discuss pros/cons of things first. Usually a big decision is made by us having a long conversation then him making the final choice (we've already discussed where we are living after the wedding, that was a big one as our families are 6-7 hours apart).

ochemjenn

We are equals.  Sometimes DH has the final say, sometimes I do.  We try to come to a mutual agreement about things, if possible.  We have different strengths, so depending on what we're dealing with, the person who has more knowledge about it is defered to.

SugarFoote

We are for the most part equals. FI knows how I stand on men "bossing" women. As long as FI is the head of the house without being a bossy head, then I am in support of it. But the majority of the time,  I have half a say and he has the other half. FI made the decision of where we will live after marriage and I support him on that decision. But If I would've wanted to live somewhere else, FI would've took that into consideration and we would be most likely looking for a house somewhere else.

It kind of just depends what the situation is. I support FI and he supports me in decisions.

He may be the head of our future home...but I am the neck...and the neck moves the head

mrandmrsbrist

For the record, I hate this topic.

H is the head of our household and has the final say in things. Why? I dunno. Because he is? You can tell we've really put a lot of thought into this. Most of it is biblical and because that's "how it's supposed to be" but another part of it is that it works for us.

That being said he has expressed many times that he doesn't just want me blindly submitting to whatever he wants. We always talk about decisions that need to be made and he always asks me what I think and to explain why what I want is best. And then he tells me what he wants and why what he wants is best. Majority of the time, we're on the same page. There have been times where he's changed his position to agree with me and times where I've changed mine to agree with him. The few times where we've been completely opposite and unwilling to budge have been few and far between. And when that has happened, I've submitted to him.

This sounds so cliche, but submitting usually gives me a joyful heart. Not always right that second, but I do end up with joy along the way.

DramaGeek

We are of the "mutual submission" mindset, and it's worked for us for 10 years.  We both have strengths and weaknesses.  There are some things that H is much better versed in so I just defer to him.  There are some things that I'm better at, so H defers to me.  And sometimes, when we can't come to an agreement, we call upon a third party who is smarter than both of us to help us out!

ElisabethJoanne

I heard this really memorable sermon at a wedding once. The Priest told the advice of a couple he met when he was in seminary. He was attending their 50th Anniversary party. The wife said, "He always asked my opinion," and in the next breath, the husband said, "She always let me make the final decision." That made sense to me, though it's a bit aphoristic, so it won't make sense to everyone.

The arenas in which "submission" comes up vary from couple to couple. It would just be unthinkable for my future husband to tell me to stop getting manicures, or whatever. We have the same attitudes about money, and I honestly don't foresee disagreements about it. But I know it's one of the main things couples argue about. [This of course is why I found a guy with the same attitudes about money.]

But other things, like career trajectory and when to have kids, I can see important ranges of disagreement there, and I'll defer to him.

DramaGeek

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:7a8af2bf-1b95-4552-ba6b-2ac3bd507306">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]I heard this really memorable sermon at a wedding once. The Priest told the advice of a couple he met when he was in seminary. He was attending their 50th Anniversary party. The wife said, "He always asked my opinion," and in the next breath, the husband said, "She always let me make the final decision." That made sense to me, though it's a bit aphoristic, so it won't make sense to everyone. The arenas in which "submission" comes up vary from couple to couple. It would just be unthinkable for my future husband to tell me to stop getting manicures, or whatever. We have the same attitudes about money, and I honestly don't foresee disagreements about it. But I know it's one of the main things couples argue about. [This of course is why I found a guy with the same attitudes about money.] But other things, like<strong> career trajectory and when to have kids, I can see important ranges of disagreement there, and I'll defer to him.</strong>
Posted by ElisabethJoanne[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>That's where I think it's most important to come to an agreement together.  For instance, he decides he's ready to have kids but you aren't - are you going to defer to him then? (and by you, I mean the universal you)  Or a great career move comes up for you, but he's not on board, so you just let it slip through your fingers?  I'm not saying anyone should go behind their spouse's back to do something their spouse doesn't or wouldn't agree with (hello, MIL, how'd you find your way into my post?!), but I do think that some decisions cannot be left up to one person because they affect both people so much - and if you can't agree, you keep working at it until you can.

</div>

catwine

I want my fiance to be head of our household but i think he'd rather talk things through with me before making decisions.  which is great, and i'm sure one day i'll be glad he is like this.  we both decided where we are going to look for a house, how we will spend holidays, what church we will go to,when we want to have kids, etc.

i fully support him in the choices he makes but i do make my opinion known and he respects that. that being said, i'll always put my husbands needs and wants before my own.

ElisabethJoanne

The thing about careers and babies is they're time-sensitive. If I get that great job offer, we can't just keep talking until we agree. We have a few days to reach a decision. What if we don't agree? I can't think it's OK for me to, eg, increase my commute by an hour a day if he's against it. That's not just my time. That's our time together.

Babies are more complicated, but for precisely that reason, if you wait until there's 100% agreement, you can wait right through your fertile years. Or you can have a plan, and then biology wrecks your plan.

I think we don't have great language to discuss the realities of these "submission" issues. To say I'll defer to my husband about whether we're ready to have kids sounds like I'm setting myself up to be some sort of barefoot and pregnant baby-making factory. But I can defer to him, I'm marrying him, because he loves me, because he won't make a decision he knows is bad for me or our family.

GJones27

This discussion always reminds me of that saying in My Big Fat Greek Wedding. "The man might be the head, but the woman is the neck." But in due seriousness, I was raised to believe that a man and woman should be equals. My mom witnessed too many instances of husbands who didn't treat their wives well in the Greek culture, so I was raised to voice and have an opinion. My husband and I are equals and we try to do things for each other to make the other happy. I think the Bible does get at some kind of equality as it says a man should love a woman like himself and put her needs before his too. I don't have the exact words before me...

joe&cassie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:a99107a2-f641-4f28-80db-c2a1bc4686f3">Re:Let's talk about quot;submission.quot;</a>:
[QUOTE]This discussion always reminds me of that saying in My Big Fat Greek Wedding. "The man might be the head, but the woman is the neck." But in due seriousness,<strong> I was raised to believe that a man and woman should be equals</strong>. My mom witnessed too many instances of husbands who didn't treat their wives well in the Greek culture, so I was raised to voice and have an opinion. My husband and I are equals and we try to do things for each other to make the other happy. I think the Bible does get at some kind of equality as it says a man should love a woman like himself and put her needs before his too. I don't have the exact words before me...
Posted by GJones27[/QUOTE]

I was raised the same way.  In fact in my family my dad is the bread winner but my mom pays all the bills and manages the checkbook.  They have to discuss everything before making decisions.  I like this and that's the way that we are going to be.  We will both have college degrees.  However, FI is horrible with money so guess who gets to decide those things... ME!  lol

FaithCaitlin

We are equals. We discuss everything together and make a joint decision. 

musicalsunlight

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:0ffb43c8-722c-4836-b5dc-e3c273ed5fa2">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]We are of the "mutual submission" mindset, and it's worked for us for 10 years.  We both have strengths and weaknesses.  There are some things that H is much better versed in so I just defer to him.  There are some things that I'm better at, so H defers to me.  And sometimes, when we can't come to an agreement, we call upon a third party who is smarter than both of us to help us out!
Posted by DramaGeek[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>Pretend I said this. Because it is pretty much how our relationship is as well. </div>

LeahVB2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:a578ea4a-70d5-4e52-8d05-956c6ffe1ddb">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]For the record, I hate this topic. H is the head of our household and has the final say in things. Why? I dunno. Because he is? You can tell we've really put a lot of thought into this. Most of it is biblical and because that's "how it's supposed to be" but another part of it is that it works for us. That being said he has expressed many times that he doesn't just want me blindly submitting to whatever he wants. We always talk about decisions that need to be made and he always asks me what I think and to explain why what I want is best. And then he tells me what he wants and why what he wants is best. Majority of the time, we're on the same page. There have been times where he's changed his position to agree with me and times where I've changed mine to agree with him. The few times where we've been completely opposite and unwilling to budge have been few and far between. And when that has happened, I've submitted to him. This sounds so cliche, but submitting usually gives me a joyful heart. Not always right that second, but I do end up with joy along the way.
Posted by mrandmrsbrist[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Pretty much this ^ except I enjoy the topic and seeing how other marriages work. There's mutal respect and submission. I love Ephesians 5:21-33 because this is how my marriage is and it works for us.

</div>

fpaemp2011

Growing up, I never once saw mom submit to dad.  Mom made the final decisions, and dad just went along with it.  It sucked.  I knew just from reading my Bible that wasn't the way it's supposed to be.  I've never considered their marriage to be one of my "good" role models.

In our marriage, we discuss everything.  I can't think of anything DH has just gone out and made a decision about without talking to me first.  However, I do defer final decsions to him.  

When we were talking about TTC, I wanted to start as soon as we got married, but DH wanted to wait.  We agreed to wait a year.  In October, he said that he wanted to start trying, even though I hadn't really mentioned wanting to start earlier, so we changed our TTC timeline.  When we bought a car last month, we looked at the budget and the cars together and came to our decision.

For career, even though I have a Special Ed degree and am currently working part-time in that field, I want to be a SAHM, and we're planning on homeschooling all of our children preK-12.  So I won't be working (at least full time) for the next 28 years or so, if we end up with only 6 kids two years apart.  We don't have a "cap" on how many kids we want, so it could be longer or shorter.  It's whatever God's plan for our family is.  DH is a pastor, so we'll go wherever God leads him.

Submission to me is both of us understanding that God is the head of the husband, and the husband is the head of the wife and the home.  I'm not one to argue with God's design because it is perfect and it works.  Like Leah said, Ephesians 5:22*-33 is our marriage and it's beautiful.


*in my NASB and ESV Bibles, vs 21 is the end of the sentence in vs 20.  It's talking about relationships within the Church, not marriage.

DramaGeek

Emily, I'm curious why you say having your mom make the decisions sucked.

jenningz

We're equals - but there's some things that he has final say on, and some things that I have final say on. I'd rather him be a step ahead with his arm around me, than him striding forth and I'm left in the background - I don't think that's ever a good foundation for a marriage. The Bible says to submit to your husbands, but it also says to love Wives like Jesus loves the church.

peachykeen26

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:fd57b338-6ead-4402-b69d-eb55c018aedf">Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]After yesterday's thread including referencing "willful, joyful submission" to our husbands' leadership and also a thread on the same subject on Unveiled Wife, I want to know your thoughts. Some things I want to know about (but feel free to discuss whatever): What does the word "submission" mean to you?  How do you overcome its negative connotations? Is your husband the "head" of your household or are you equal partners? How does Ephesians 5 surface in your life/marriage? Do you consciously strive to fulfill what we are called to do in Ephesians 5 or are there other parameters/passages that speak to you more or you find more important/relevant/helpful?
Posted by naomikb[/QUOTE]

I view submission as respect. I don't view submission as rolling over or being walked all over. I think submission is very simple in that sometimes it better to just shut up and listen. I also view submission as allowing your husband to be the head of the household. That does not mean that the wife takes 2nd or 3rd place. You are equal partners and should balance each other out. Where the husband is the head of the household the wife is also the head of the household with the husband.

The most common Eph 5 passage is Eph 5:22-33. But, what most people fail to see is that in Eph 5:20-21 is clearly states to give thanks always for everything the Lord provides and to submit to each other out of reverence for Christ. So, in reality, it's all a balancing act. He submits sometimes and she submits sometimes.

I think submission has a negative connontation because people hear submit and think coward or getting walked all over. As a Christian and a wife in 6 days, it is my honor and duty as a sister of Christ to willfully and joyfully go where my husband leads. I can still have and voice my opinions and concerns and we can work through problems together. And I think that's what people don't understand. Just because you are a Christian, does not mean that you just roll over for your husband to walk all over you.

We are equal partners with him as the head of the household. Like I said, we are partners. No partner is greater than the other. I fear if he was "greater" than I, he would get bored. :)

Ephesians 5 is one of my favorite chapters. I strive to live by that daily. Sometimes I do better than others but its about submitting in reverence of Christ and that's what I remind myself sometimes.


Thanks for a GREAT discussion!

catwine

i'm curous about the unveiled wife thread...i can't see it so can someone enlighten me as to what that is?

peachykeen26

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:2fc0dda0-38ef-4c91-b69b-d2ebfc5a2648">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]i'm curous about the unveiled wife thread...i can't see it so can someone enlighten me as to what that is?
Posted by christinavy[/QUOTE]

Agreed!

jenningz

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:6250f1ec-2f12-49f2-b786-746b17baee3c">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Let's talk about "submission." : I view submission as respect. I don't view submission as rolling over or being walked all over. I think submission is very simple in that sometimes it better to just shut up and listen. I also view submission as allowing your husband to be the head of the household. That does not mean that the wife takes 2nd or 3rd place. You are equal partners and should balance each other out. Where the husband is the head of the household the wife is also the head of the household with the husband. The most common Eph 5 passage is Eph 5:22-33. But, what most people fail to see is that in Eph 5:20-21 is clearly states to give thanks always for everything the Lord provides and to submit to each other out of reverence for Christ. So, in reality, it's all a balancing act. He submits sometimes and she submits sometimes. I think submission has a negative connontation because people hear submit and think coward or getting walked all over. As a Christian and a wife in 6 days, it is my honor and duty as a sister of Christ to willfully and joyfully go where my husband leads. I can still have and voice my opinions and concerns and we can work through problems together. And I think that's what people don't understand. Just because you are a Christian, does not mean that you just roll over for your husband to walk all over you. We are equal partners with him as the head of the household. Like I said, we are partners. No partner is greater than the other. I fear if he was "greater" than I, he would get bored. :) Ephesians 5 is one of my favorite chapters. I strive to live by that daily. Sometimes I do better than others but its about submitting in reverence of Christ and that's what I remind myself sometimes. Thanks for a GREAT discussion!
Posted by peachykeen26[/QUOTE]

Agreed! However, I have seen a few situations where the Husband has forgotten the "love your wives as Jesus loved the church" passage, and take it a step too far.

ochemjenn

Emily, I think it's great that you're going to home-school!  Even though you won't necessarily be teaching special-ed, you'll still be using a lot of what you learned. 

Will Fletcher play a roll in home-schooling?  My DH and I aren't planning on having kids, but we've discussed the fact that if we did, he'd help me teach history and Latin as well as be the primary instructor for civics/government.  What are your plans for if/when your kids have reached the limits of your skills?  We realized if we had kids who excel at art, music, or foreign language, they would quickly get to the point that we wouldn't have the skill set to instruct them further.

fpaemp2011

<div>In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:7d92495c-8bc4-4f0f-a700-561d7d7a91ae">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]Emily, I'm curious why you say having your mom make the decisions sucked.
Posted by DramaGeek[/QUOTE] </div><div>I just knew that wasn't the way God designed marriage.  She and dad both work full time and both make about the same amount, so it wasn't even like she was trying to play the "breadwinner" card.  She just can not bear not being in charge of everything, and in the very rare situations where she claims she'll let dad make a decision and be the "submissive wife" she pouts if he doesn't make the decision she wanted him to make.  Growing up, it was just obvious that something wasn't right in the family structure, and there was so much fighting.  Dad was made to be the head, but mom just wouldn't let him.  It wasn't Ephesians 5...it was Genesis 3:16.</div><div>
</div>In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:13fa7b3e-9296-4340-9a51-14b94b08b1aa">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]Will Fletcher play a roll in home-schooling?  What are your plans for if/when your kids have reached the limits of your skills? 
Posted by ochemjenn[/QUOTE]<div>Fletcher will most likely do most of the Bible instruction, especially as they get older.  We're at about the same level in math, science, and history, and I have a concentration in K-6 English ed.  </div><div>
</div><div>When they get to the point that we feel they may benefit from more advanced education in the subjects we're not as strong in (i.e.- advanced math and Chemistry...ha!) we'll either look at homeschool umbrella academies (similar to the one DH was enrolled in K-12) or early enrollment at a community college for some courses.  Christian school may be an option down the road, especially if DH is at a church that runs one.  There are also several video and online-based curriculums available through Christian education publishers (Alpha Omega Publications being one example).</div><div>
</div><div>Rosetta Stone has homeschool support, so we'll most likely do that for foreign language, and that will formally start with Latin around 3rd-4th grade, depending on when we feel each child is ready to start.  We'll let them pick which language they want to study when they reach 8th-9th grade.  Depending on which seminary DH goes to for his Master's, he'll most likely take a lot of Greek and Hebrew, so we'll probably make that a part of the curriculum, as well.</div><div>
</div><div>Although, the advanced levels are 15ish years away, so who knows what will be available then.

</div>

peachykeen26

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:c88fea6e-ec33-4857-8426-a7ab53fa66c0">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Let's talk about "submission." : Agreed! However, I have seen a few situations where the Husband has forgotten the "love your wives as Jesus loved the church" passage, and take it a step too far.
Posted by jenningz[/QUOTE]


Oh yes. This is definitely an issue. Which is why Ephesians 5:20-21 is SO important to remember too!
The woman is supposed to submit and man is supposed to love because its the exact opposite of what we normally do! It's so true.
It's way easier for me to love on FH than to respect and submit to him and vice versa! He lets me do what I want because he thinks its how he loves me when my needs are literally physical touch, it's my love language. :)

peachykeen26

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:c9bf2f0c-a3f8-4194-81db-ecfb604b07a6">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>Growing up, I never once saw mom submit to dad.  Mom made the final decisions, and dad just went along with it.  It sucked.  I knew just from reading my Bible that wasn't the way it's supposed to be.  I've never considered their marriage to be one of my "good" role models.</strong> In our marriage, we discuss everything.  I can't think of anything DH has just gone out and made a decision about without talking to me first.  However, I do defer final decsions to him.   When we were talking about TTC, I wanted to start as soon as we got married, but DH wanted to wait.  We agreed to wait a year.  In October, he said that he wanted to start trying, even though I hadn't really mentioned wanting to start earlier, so we changed our TTC timeline.  When we bought a car last month, we looked at the budget and the cars together and came to our decision. For career, even though I have a Special Ed degree and am currently working part-time in that field, I want to be a SAHM, and we're planning on homeschooling all of our children preK-12.  So I won't be working (at least full time) for the next 28 years or so, if we end up with only 6 kids two years apart.  We don't have a "cap" on how many kids we want, so it could be longer or shorter.  It's whatever God's plan for our family is.  DH is a pastor, so we'll go wherever God leads him. Submission to me is both of us understanding that God is the head of the husband, and the husband is the head of the wife and the home.  I'm not one to argue with God's design because it is perfect and it works.  Like Leah said, Ephesians 5:22*-33 is our marriage and it's beautiful. *in my NASB and ESV Bibles, vs 21 is the end of the sentence in vs 20.  It's talking about relationships within the Church, not marriage.
Posted by fpaemp2011[/QUOTE]

I find this very interesting! My parents rarely discussed anything and just did what they wanted. I also don't consider them good role models. It's hard to get passed it and discuss everything, but it's worth fighting for.

fpaemp2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_lets-talk-about-submission?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:141de9c6-60bc-4f3f-82ac-511b9fdfbf9cPost:2fc0dda0-38ef-4c91-b69b-d2ebfc5a2648">Re: Let's talk about "submission."</a>:
[QUOTE]i'm curous about the unveiled wife thread...i can't see it so can someone enlighten me as to what that is?
Posted by christinavy[/QUOTE]
Unveiled Wife is a completely different website:  <a href="http://unveiledwife.com/christian-forum-community-for-wives/#/1507967/forum" rel="nofollow">http://unveiledwife.com/christian-forum-community-for-wives/#/1507967/forum</a>

naomikb

Peachy & Christina:
http://unveiledwife.com/christian-forum-community-for-wives/#/1507967/forum/161279/are-you-an-ephesians-5-wife.html

DeannaCW

I think Christians tend to debate the word "submission" without recognising what it meant in the ancient world and the word in Greek. I don't know the word, so can't bring it up, but know that it didn't necessarily refer to "obedience" specifically, the way it does today.

I will also say, that this text was shockingly feminist for its day; my pastor compars its potential for scandal to the Civil Rights movement of the 60s.  Every other ancient author writes letters of household advice to the men, telling them how to control their wives, children, etc. When this addresses husband/wife relationships, he orders men to respect them, rather than control them thru any means necessary.

But the shocking part? The fact that he addressed women. Like people. He recognised women as human beings with thoughts, feelings, and control of their own actions.  This, right here is why I get uppity about misuse of this passage. It's about each sacrificing to the other, not one controlling another. Obedience does come with that at times, but it is not the key feature that we seem to think it is today.

ravenray

 

H and I have talked about this a lot but since we are newly married we are still figuring it all out.  We talk about every major decision together and he gets the final say.  But we believe that it is his job to consider the wife's interests above his own so that should factor into his decision. 

I won't lie it's really hard for me to let him make the decision most of the time, I'm very strong willed.  But it is something I am working on at becoming a better and a more godly wife. 

2012FutureMrsB

I agree with PP's.

People who misinterpret the Bible have gotten a lot of attention and so there is a negative side that fights against the "submission" thing. It doesn't mean letting the man boss the woman around and be a dictator. That is so far from what the Bible says! Most people stop at the wife's role and don't bother to read what it says about the husband's role.

The wife is to "submit" which means she is to support her husband and stand by his side. However, the husband also has the responsibility of being the head as Christ is the head of the church and gave Himself up for the church. If BOTH the husband and wife are following their God-given roles, then there would never be an issue with the "submissive" wording.

In fact, the sentence that precedes this popular scripture passage says that christians (all christians) should submit to each other. Then the author continues using the example of a husband and wife. Even though he doesn't use the word "submit" for the man, that is exactly what he is implying. The whole passage is about mutual submission and if the husband is supposed to give himself up for his wife, as Christ gave Himself up for the church . . . well, if that's not submission on the husband's part, then I don't know what is!

Conclusion: The Bible teaches that husband and wife are to be mutually submissive, but this might "look" differently for each. The wife should support her husband and let him have the final say-so, but at the same time, the husband should be consulting his wife on every issue (not necessarily petty issues) and love her and respect her as a helpmate that God has placed in his life to help him make these important decisions.

That's how my H and I run our relationship. We are both equals, but he is the "head" - these are not mutually exclusive things.

Instructions for Christian Households (Ephesians 5:21-23) 

²¹ Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

²² Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. ²³ For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. ²⁴ Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

²⁵ Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her ²⁶ to make her holy, cleansing^[b] her by the washing with water through the word, ²⁷ and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. ²⁸ In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. ²⁹ After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— ³⁰ for we are members of his body. ³¹ “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”^{[c] 32} This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. ³³ However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.



(Edited for clarification and grammar)