'Gay Marriage'

DramaGeek

Regardless of choice vs not, I disagree with the state dictating morals.  If both people are legally able to consent, they should be able to be legally seen as a unit.

Interesting point from history, today is the 45th anniversary of the Supreme Court ruling that interracial marriage was not illegal.

naomikb

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:c1fa9d18-2a06-4c5c-86b3-5241a1ea0ab2">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm not saying that people aren't born with a "sin nature". No one is perfect. But I don't beleive that people are born gay. <strong> I was born a virgin but I made the CHOICE to fornicate. My neighbor was born sober but made the CHOICE to become an alcoholic. Murderer's aren't born that way. They make the CHOICE to kill. "Gay" people aren't born that way either. They make a CHOICE to live that lifestyle.</strong> I feel like a lot of people blame God for things he didn't do. <strong>It's not God's fault I had sex before marriage.</strong> It's not God's fault that people sin.
Posted by SugarFoote[/QUOTE]
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

I think we need to break this down.  Yes, you were born a virgin.  Yes, you were born white (from your picture?).  Yes, you were born female.  None of those were choices, none of those are sins.

Things we are born with: sex, race, risk of various genetic/hereditary disorders.

Things we can choose: whether or not to drink, whether or not to abstain from sex before marriage, whether to run a marathon or not, how to cut our hair, how much food to eat, how much to exercise.

It depends whether you put "sexual orientation" in the "born with" or "can choose" category.  You are saying that you aren't just "born gay" but that you choose to have gay actions?  Is it "better" in God's eyes to be gay and then live a celibate life?  Who are you to judge that?

Personally I think sexual orientation is definitely in the "born with" category.

(There are definitely things (obesity, alcoholism, cancer) that have overlaps between born with/choose to).

"It's not God's fault that I had sex before marriage..." -- exactly right.  But would you like the government to tell you that you aren't allowed to have sex before marriage and bring in legislation that prevents you from doing so?  No, that's silly.  You're both consenting adults and what you do is between you and your partner and God.  Consenting adults should be able to do as they please and it should be none of the government's business.

GunzNRoses213

I'm morally not ok with gay marriage ... BUT I think the states should legalize it but not have it be a Church matter /involvment .

naomikb

Here is one article, although I have this feeling that science doesn't really affect your opinion anyways.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/253/5023/1034.short

ETA: And another.
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/30/10273.full
 

ochemjenn

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:944b878c-5b61-458f-b82d-f2be3f29226c">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: 'Gay Marriage' :   It depends whether you put "sexual orientation" in the "born with" or "can choose" category.  You are saying that you aren't just "born gay" but that you choose to have gay actions?  Is it "better" in God's eyes to be gay and then live a celibate life?  Who are you to judge that? Posted by naomikb[/QUOTE]

Very good point.  Anyway, isn't God concerned with what we feel in our hearts, not just our actions?  Thinking about the "if you lust after your neighbor you have sinned" verse.  Lust is something we have control over.  Sexual orientation...I think that's probably how God made some people.  My guess is He cares more about how a person treats others, not who a person wants to sleep with.

GunzNRoses213

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals.

I dont think he stutterd there....

GunzNRoses213

Leviticus 18:22 (NET)

18:22 You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act.

Also 20:13 ....

GunzNRoses213

This is all from Bible.org...... 
Are there other Scriptures in the New Testament which deal with homosexuality?

Yes. Romans 1:24-27; I Timothy 1:10 and Jude 7. If one takes these Scriptures seriously, homosexuality will be recognized as an evil. The Romans passage is unmistakably clear. Paul attributes the moral depravity of men and women to their rejection of "the truth of God" (1:25). They refused "to retain God in their knowledge" (1:28), thereby dethroning God and deifying themselves. The Old Testament had clearly condemned homosexuality but in Paul's day there were those persons who rejected its teaching. Because of their rejection of God's commands He punished their sin by delivering them over to it.

The philosophy of substituting God's Word with one's own reasoning commenced with Satan. He introduced it at the outset of the human race by suggesting to Eve that she ignore God's orders, assuring her that in so doing she would become like God with the power to discern good and evil (Genesis 3:1-5). That was Satan's big lie. Paul said that when any person rejects God's truth, his mind becomes "reprobate," meaning void of sound judgment.¹ The reprobate mind, having rejected God's truth, is not capable of discerning good and evil.

In Romans 1:26-31 twenty-three punishable sins are listed with homosexuality leading the list. Paul wrote, "For this cause God gave them up into vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" (Romans 1:26, 27). These verses are telling us that homosexuals suffer in their body and personality the inevitable consequences of their wrong doing. Notice that the behaviour of the homosexual is described as a "vile affection" (1:26). The Greek word translated "vile" (atimia) means filthy, dirty, evil, dishonourable. The word "affection" in Greek is pathos, used by the Greeks of either a good or bad desire. Here in the context of Romans it is used in a bad sense. The "vile affection" is a degrading passion, a shameful lust. Both the desire (lusting after) and the act of homosexuality are condemned in the Bible as sin.

GunzNRoses213

http://bible.org/article/homosexuality-christian-perspective

That's the whole link/scripture stated verses.......

Jasmine&Rajah

runpipparun,

It's not as simple as "Christians choosing to disregard" many of the Mosaic precepts found in the Old Testament.  What we know is that these laws were either moral, ceremonial, or judicial (civil).  The moral law did not change with the coming and resurrection of our Savior.  The ceremonial and judicial laws did. 

Obviously, it's more complex than what I've stated, but that's the long and short of it.

God bless you all.  :-)

GunzNRoses213

What she said ....

fpaemp2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:347e33c9-b2fa-4f8a-ad42-dbb1d0802304">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]runpipparun, It's not as simple as "Christians choosing to disregard" many of the Mosaic precepts found in the Old Testament.  What we know is that these laws were either moral, ceremonial, or judicial (civil).  The moral law did not change with the coming and resurrection of our Savior.  The ceremonial and judicial laws did.  Obviously, it's more complex than what I've stated, but that's the long and short of it. God bless you all.  :-)
Posted by Jasmine&Rajah[/QUOTE]<div>Exactly.

</div>

cwill6212

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:279b2816-5ed0-475b-81dd-be3639c4fb5e">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]Disagree wholeheartedly. There are plenty of things re: marriage and other things in the Bible that we Christians choose to disregard entirely (please do go back and read the Old Testament; it will shock you what men are allowed to do and what women are to submit to). Why do we cling to this one so strongly when the Bible was clearly written in another time for another audience. (If you want proof, look at another culture who clings to their ancient text literally --- radical Islam.) God gave us reason, and He intends us to use it. He does not want us to employ slavery, or want women to have to marry their dead husband's brothers because some guy who lived thousands of years ago wrote it down once. When Christ came, he took the 10 Commandments, which are a "Thou Shalt Not" format and changed things. The first three/four refer to how we interact with God, right? Thou Shalt Not Have Any Gods Before Me, etc. The next six/seven refer to how we interact with one another. Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, etc. Christ simplified things and told us what TO DO in TWO commandments. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with your whole heart, and thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. We are to treat everyone equally. Does this mean we let people sleep with children? Or dogs? No, children and dogs are not able to give consent. But consenting adults are consenting adults. We are to love them and treat them equally, give them the same rights, because Christ would have done the same with them as he did with lepers, prostitutes, women, Samaritans, etc.
Posted by runpipparun[/QUOTE]

I respect all of the opinions posted, but this is the one I most agree with. I believe we are to love and treat one another equally because that's what Jesus did. We all have our own sins to tackle as we strive to be more Christ-like, but God doesn't measure one sin any higher than another. (Matthew 12:31; James 2:10-11)

In terms of laws and whether the gay community should be given equal rights, I think they should. My now-husband is black and there was a time when society and our government said that blacks and whites should not mix. What an injustice that was and look how many were persecuted just for loving someone with a different skin color. Who you or I choose to love (black, white, purple or green or man/woman, woman/woman, man/man) should frankly be no business of the government...

GunzNRoses213

Equal rights by all means ... but did you miss the memo from 1 Corithians ?

ochemjenn

I don't think anyone's trying to say that homosexuality isn't a sin.  The point I'm trying to make is that we all are born with a sinful nature, and it's not our place to judge.  I really struggle with the whole honor mother and father thing, but that doesn't mean I'm not (or shouldn't be) welcome in a church.  Others struggle with using inappropriate language, or modesty, or pride etc.  It seems that those struggles are acceptable, but osexuality automatically means rejection.

1 Corinth. tells us that it's wrong, but it doesn't tell us to turn our backs.  Just stating facts, not telling us what others who don't sin that way what they should do about it.  What we ARE told to do by the Bible is to love God and our neighbor.

SugarFoote

I'm not saying that everyone shouldn't have a right to get married. I'm not saying people aren't born with a sinful nature. I DO feel like everyone should have a right to get married. All I'm saying is that gay people are not born gay. Sure, they might have a hormonal imbalance. But they aren't born gay. That's my whole point here.

I'm not ok with homosexuality but I have homosexual friends.

SugarFoote

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:c69c036e-5d49-422c-b669-cea512967fa4">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: 'Gay Marriage' : Doing something because of mental illness is no more her fault or decision than someone puking because of a GI bug. 
Posted by ochemjenn[/QUOTE]

Completely misunderstood that. I'm saying its not God's fault she suffers from a mental illness. Its not anyones. And when I said "She made her choice" I meant it as when she didn't pull over she made her choice.

naomikb

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:626af638-09e9-40ed-b7c0-b70ad469d9a4">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm not saying that everyone shouldn't have a right to get married. I'm not saying people aren't born with a sinful nature. I DO feel like everyone should have a right to get married. All I'm saying is that gay people are not born gay. <strong>Sure, they might have a hormonal imbalance. But they aren't born gay. That's my whole point here.</strong> I'm not ok with homosexuality but I have homosexual friends.
Posted by SugarFoote[/QUOTE]
I don't think you quite understand the biology behind it.  Well, for that matter it is still obviously being investigated in depth.  But it isn't a "hormonal imbalance" that leads to being gay.  It is much much more than that.  Hormonal imbalances causes things like excess facial hair, breast tissue development in men, PCOS, anovulation, and precocious puberty.  Homosexuality is not caused by a hormonal imbalance.

DramaGeek

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:99f28b9f-b30b-4fdc-bb71-09663240b469">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: 'Gay Marriage' : Completely misunderstood that. I'm saying its not God's fault she suffers from a mental illness. Its not anyones. And when I said "She made her choice" I meant it as when she didn't pull over she made her choice.
Posted by SugarFoote[/QUOTE]

There's no choice to be made when you're under the influence of a mental illness.  There can come a time when you have no control over your actions.  According to her, the archangel Michael was driving the car and she wasn't doing anything wrong.

Sorry, hot button issue.

mrandmrsbrist

So, SugarFoote, if you don't believe they are born gay, do you believe they just decide one day to like men? Or women if they're a woman?

SugarFoote

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:2096d668-6043-4484-92b9-bee5697a9927">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: 'Gay Marriage' : I don't think you quite understand the biology behind it.  Well, for that matter it is still obviously being investigated in depth.  But it isn't a "hormonal imbalance" that leads to being gay.  It is much much more than that.  Hormonal imbalances causes things like excess facial hair, breast tissue development in men, PCOS, anovulation, and precocious puberty.  Homosexuality is not caused by a hormonal imbalance.
Posted by naomikb[/QUOTE]

I'm just saying what a PP said. She said that gay people had chemical differences.

SugarFoote

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:e58ce242-5106-4208-9b83-370960abf9d9">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]So, SugarFoote, if you don't believe they are born gay, do you believe they just decide one day to like men? Or women if they're a woman?
Posted by mrandmrsbrist[/QUOTE]

Maybe not all of a sudden. Maybe they just decide that they aren't attracted to the opposite sex.

God created us in his image. Do you think God is gay? I believe that he created a pure being that remains pure until that person reaches the age the accountability and understands right and wrong. Why would homosexuality be an abomination in the eyes of God if he created people that way? People choose to be gay.

SugarFoote

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_gay-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:4ecaee0f-373a-4133-8b57-0e8dc6579b65Post:3306b426-1e1c-4975-bf4b-3d3d4285bff3">Re: 'Gay Marriage'</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: 'Gay Marriage' : There's no choice to be made when you're under the influence of a mental illness.  There can come a time when you have no control over your actions.  According to her, the archangel Michael was driving the car and she wasn't doing anything wrong. Sorry, hot button issue.
Posted by DramaGeek[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry. I don't know the details of this story and my comment was based on knowing that she had went on a high speed chase.

DramaGeek

No worries, my point was simply that people can act out of compulsion, which really isn't a choice, you know?

Can gay people choose not to act on their impulses?  of course, the same way a heterosexual person can choose to remain celibate.  So if they abstain, does that make them not a sinner?  Is it the homosexual acts or the being attracted to the same sex that makes it a sin, and if it's the attraction, then do you believe that's a conscious decision that they make, or is it something that happens to them, perhaps from a traumatic experience?

Also, you mention the age of accountability.  I'm curious what age that is.

If we really want to make this an interesting discussion, we could throw the transgender population into the mix :-P

mrandmrsbrist

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: 'Gay Marriage' : Maybe not all of a sudden. Maybe they just decide that they aren't attracted to the opposite sex.
Posted by SugarFoote[/QUOTE]

<div>I'm going to ignore the rest of your post because that wasn't part of my question, at all.</div><div>
</div><div>So if you can just decide that you aren't attracted to the opposite sex that means any one of us could do that at any time? Is that what you're saying? That I could just decide tomorrow that I like women? </div>

GunzNRoses213

::head hitting desk ::

azdancer8

I think that yes, there are chemicals in our brains that can make us more naturally attracted toward males/females. But I do believe that it is a choice whether to act on those impulses.

My college roommate was engaged (to a guy) in 2001. They broke up, and she is getting married (to a female) this month. So which is she? Straight? Lesbian? Did her chemicals change? Or did her choice change? I'm not sure any of us can know completely what makes someone gay or straight.

jenningz

I love how, people of the same Faith have such vastly differing opinions on stuff - it's really interesting... but anyway.

I think, in this day and age... especially in recent years and among younger people it's 'cool' to experiment with the same sex, I know plenty of my straight friends who've kissed girls just for the fun of it and to get attention from guys - they're not gay, they're just 'experimenting', so yes. That's a choice, to sleep with the same sex etc. because it's 'cool' now is a CHOICE.

On the other hand, to be subject to constant ridicule, abuse; to be abandoned by your own family (not saying this happens in all cases, I'm talking extreme here) and to also, feel like what you feel is natural is wrong? How is that choice. Who would CHOOSE to be like that? Who would choose to be abused because of the gender they're attracted to. So no, I don't think it's a choice. I do believe people are born gay, and I do believe it's to do with genes, chemicals etc. I don't for one second think that, a person who is genuinly gay (not just trying it out for laughs) would choose their 'lifestyle'

Jesus wants us to love everyone, we're not entitled to judge anyone on their 'choices', 'sins', in fact I just don't bother because in Gods eyes, I'm really just as bad.

I think, Church and State should be seperate - and if Homosexuals want to 'marry' they can have a legal ceremony, but I don't believe the church should be expected to conduct ceremonies for same sex couples when it says quite clearly in the Bible that it's wrong - whether it's their choice, or not.

SugarFoote

When I say the "age of accountability" I'm not meaning a specific age. Every person is different. It's not really an age. Its more of a time in a persons life when they understand right and wrong and realize that they need Christ. They become accountable for their sins.

I think my whole point in this entire thread has been completely misunderstood. I don't really care if homosexuality is a sin or not. That's between God and that person just like my sins are between me and God.

The only point I have is that I do not believe that people are born gay. The bible talks about homosexuality being wrong. Why would it be wrong if that person was born that way? If they were born that way then they can't help it. But if they couldn't help it, then why would the bible say it was wrong?

I think everyone on here has said that they don't condone homosexuality. Well if you believe that the person was born that way, why wouldn't you agree with that lifestyle? I mean, you claim they can't help being that way. Why not agree with it?

People are not born that way.

jenningz

Just because someone's born a certain way doesn't mean I have to agree with it - that's just silly and completely irrelevant actually.