Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP

fpaemp2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:d5836982-119c-4310-8f75-a29d23e056ef">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP : It's not about money though, it's about life.
Posted by xstarx05x[/QUOTE]
Exactly.  And NFP/FAM doesn't mean barefoot and pregnant all the time.  We're still planning to space our children so we can love and raise them properly, but without risking the death of others.

agape1cor813

The original poll said "Only have a family size that you can afford and can emotionally handle." For me right now that is 0. Hubby and I need to focus on our careers so our future children can have a good life.

xstarx05x

Please don't get defensive. Remember OP asked us to explain our reason and that is what I did. 

Just wondering, do you believe life begins at conception?

agape1cor813

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:8dfe1e3a-ff68-4519-8238-d0d39e4099ab">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE] Just wondering, do you believe life begins at conception?
Posted by xstarx05x[/QUOTE]

Funny, I felt pretty sure that I did until I started participating in this thread.

xstarx05x

What do you mean?

DramaGeek

Monkeysip, I have a curious question, and I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just genuinely curious.

You said that "By sterilizing the woman, it renders the sexual act non-creative and it puts a barrier between the man and woman, making the act less unitive."

Do you believe that sex without the possibility of procreation is less unitive, and if so, what do you think of those who are barren without voluntary sterilization having sex?

agape1cor813

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:61c4e530-33ce-4caf-ad4e-c8382b4ef2c9">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE]You said that " By sterilizing the woman, it renders the sexual act non-creative and it puts a barrier between the man and woman, making the act less unitive." Do you believe that sex without the possibility of procreation is less unitive, and if so, what do you think of those who are barren without voluntary sterilization having sex?
Posted by DramaGeek[/QUOTE]

I think this exchange totally illustrates the point why this discussion should not be had on an online forum. Seemingly innocent comments from one poster leads to a confrontation of sorts, statements get misunderstood, there's not the focus as their would be in a real conversation, and worst of all we aren't even friends on here. Perhaps it would be best to keep things like this saved for personal conversations between friends/acquaintances.

Once again reminding me why I can't interact with Christian women ... I regret ever partaking in this thread.

xstarx05x

<div style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;background-color:initial;background-image:none;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;color:#1f1f1f;font:normal normal normal 11px/14px Arial, sans-serif;text-align:left;line-height:normal;">In Response to <a style="text-decoration:none;font-weight:normal;color:#1f1f1f;" href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:276a3fda-9fa7-42e8-9e17-1bcda0537029">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE]Once again reminding me why I can't interact with Christian women ...
Posted by agape1cor813[/QUOTE]

<div>I don't think it's fair for you to generalize like that. </div><div>
</div><div>Nobody is confronting you. I don't feel any disrespect or dislike towards you, and I'm sure PPs feel the same. You stated what you believe and someone asked you a question because they didn't understand something, that is all. If you interpret that as offensive, perhaps that's conviction speaking?</div></div>

agape1cor813

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:f2e83d60-3ed6-42c6-b833-c247774b0d22">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to  Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP :<strong> I don't think it's fair for you to generalize like that.</strong> Nobody is confronting you. You stated what you believe and someone asked you a question because they didn't understand something.<strong> If you interpret that as offensive, perhaps that's conviction speaking?</strong>
Posted by xstarx05x[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I can say the same for you.

Now, because I've expressed desire to keep this ridiculous conversation from being so public, if you wish you speak with me further you may send me a private message.

DramaGeek

agape, I'm pretty sure we're on the same side of this conversation, so I'm not sure why you have issues with me, or maybe you don't and I just misunderstood your post.  Either way, this online conversation is going the same way every real life conversation I've had on this subject has gone:  multiple people speaking at once, going in different directions, and eventually realizing we're not going to convince each other to change our minds so we end up agreeing to disagree.

xstarx05x

ok you have a PM

agape1cor813

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:04339438-b294-4c43-9c76-e2b37c6dbe55">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE]agape, I'm pretty sure we're on the same side of this conversation, so I'm not sure why you have issues with me, or maybe you don't and I just misunderstood your post.  Either way, this online conversation is going the same way every real life conversation I've had on this subject has gone:  multiple people speaking at once, going in different directions, and eventually realizing we're not going to convince each other to change our minds so we end up agreeing to disagree.
Posted by DramaGeek[/QUOTE]

I have no issue with you, I just thought your reply perfectly pointed out the dangers of having conversations like this.

I'm increasingly convinced that mum's the word...

DramaGeek

I think this is one of those agree to disagree situations ;-)  These kinds of conversations are always a little awkward and uncomfortable, but I appreciate them because it causes me to stop and think about what I believe and why.  As iron sharpens iron and all that.

monkeysip

Whoa, this thread just keeps going!  I'ma try and briefly catch up.

@ Dramageek-- obviously I'm not very good at wording my posts to try and differentiate between persons/actions.  Again, I'm sorry that I worded things in an offensive way.  Although honestly I think some people might be offended by any words I choose to express my beliefs because people are always offended when you express that you don't agree with something that they have chosen to do.  I'm not sure that it was possible to completely avoid offending people, but I should've tried harder.

"Do you believe that sex without the possibility of procreation is less unitive, and if so, what do you think of those who are barren without voluntary sterilization having sex?"

Good question.  And the answer is no.  A woman who is barren is the same as a woman in the infertile period of her cycle, but she is so indefinitely.  Both of these women have not altered their fertility, it is just in God's hands.  It is not by the choice of either woman that she is infertile, but it is God's choice.  When she makes love, she is giving her spouse all of her, even her fertility.  She is not holding anything back from him.

@ untherapy

"I think people can feel judged or attacked because of words like "wrong", "harmful to women and society", etc. You equated judging HBC with "discerning right from wrong" which is a very wide brush stroke to make. Birth control is not a universal right or wrong issue - God has different plans for everyone. It's important for you to decide what God wants for your BC method, and no one should impugn your conviction about that, but I don't think it's wise or called for to criticize or judge other methods in a general way"

Again, I feel like maybe I should just keep my virtual mouth shut because I do believe that using contraception (while having sex) is always wrong no matter what.  It's intrinsically wrong, not extrinsically.  I'm sure that sounds totally crazy to most on here, but that is what I believe.  Just like I think premarital sex is always wrong, or lying is always wrong (they're not all necessarily "equal" sins, I'm just saying that they're all intrinsically wrong to me).  So it would be a lie for me to say what you suggested I say.  This is probably why I just shouldn't have spoken at all because I don't think there is a way for me to word my beliefs that wouldn't offend some people on here.  And offending people was not my intention.  

And agape is probably right.  These conversations are much better in person.  We'd probably both be able to understand and relate to each other better in person, and on the internet, it is so difficult to read each other's tone.  Tone can make all the difference sometimes.

xstarx05x

<p class="p1">In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:b68f7b82-eda3-4bdc-b8b3-6715ec986463">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:</p> <p class="p1">[QUOTE] they're not all necessarily "equal" sins</p> <p class="p1">Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]</p> <p class="p2"> </p> <p class="p1">I just wanted to point out that the Bible does not have a hierarchy of sins. All sin is on the same level. What makes the difference is your journey in faith </p> <p class="p2"> </p> <p class="p1">1 Corinthians chapter 9 says:</p> <p class="p1"><em><strong>9</strong> Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, <strong>10</strong> or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. <strong>11</strong> Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.</em></p> <p class="p2"> </p> <p class="p1">Basically, I am a sinner like all people (Rom 3:23) and my sins are no better nor worse than another person's. If I let anything keep me from glorifying God, I will not enter His Kingdom. BUT (here comes Jesus’ gift of salvation) as long as we *continue to lift God above everything* we’re on the right track. </p> <p class="p2"> </p> <p class="p1">Nevertheless, nobody but God can judge another person. Only He knows who's in the book of life and whether we have a relationship with Him.</p><p> </p>

drama1308

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:1c418ffd-0ced-4a96-b545-96ac30d06b62">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>i believe that sex is made for babies ... but also that sex is to be enjoyed. (</strong>;
Posted by amongthelilies25[/QUOTE]

This.

We don't need to have a full out war becaues people think differently.

DramaGeek

monkey, thank you for replying.  I know many people who believe the way you do (Catholic school and all that), but they vary on whether or not those who are  barren should have sex, so I was curious about your stance.  Thank you for sharing your beliefs :-)

mrandmrsbrist

Those of us that have been around longer aren't even fighting...This is getting ridiculous. Can we just agree to disagree and be done with it?

sessionswedding

After reading through everything, I am still offended.  I'm not married because I'm not trying to get pregnant?  I'm a baby murderer because on the very very off chance that I ovulate, and at that moment a sperm even makes it past my cervix (pretty much impossible when on the pill) and survives to even meet the egg, there might not be implantation?  Ooooh, that's the kind of thing that takes strength from God not come at people about.  As PP mentioned, I regret participating in this thread.

xstarx05x

sessionswedding, if that's how you feel there's nothing I can change about that. I wasn't trying to change anyone's beliefs in my responses, just explaining how I felt and sharing some information that others may not have known.

sessionswedding

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:e8224d74-e035-4460-bbe0-2bdd4c222d77">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE]sessionswedding, if that's how you feel there's nothing I can change about that. I wasn't trying to change anyone's beliefs in my responses, just explaining how I felt and sharing some information that others may not have known.
Posted by xstarx05x[/QUOTE]
It wasn't just you that upset me.  I'm just shocked at the overall negative perception of HBC.  I have to take it to treat PCOS.  I actually may not be able to have children because the only way my reproductive system isn't running haywire is on HBC, but you have to come off HBC (which would make PCOS symptoms return) to get pregnant, but PCOS symptoms include infertility.  The only permanent treatment for PCOS is a full hysterectomy, which quite obviously means permanent sterilization.  See my catch-22 here?

ETA:  Basically, bashing HBC users is like throwing salt in the wound.  I don't have the choice to use NFP.  Those who do should consider themselves lucky, but please don't assume that I'm some bad person for putting a pill in my mouth everyday instead of a thermometer.

amongthelilies25

everyone has their own opinions on BC methods. lets all agree to disagree.

we can all agree that sex is good, sex is fun, sex is enjoyable. (: hooray that God created sex for all of us to enjoy in a covenant marriage! (:

amen and amen!

(;

ochemjenn

For now, birth control AND condoms (besides the fact that we don't want children, I am taking a medication that can cause VERY serious birth defects).  DH will have a vasectomy as soon as he's 30.  If I'd be able to get my tubes tied before then, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

He was surprised when I said at premarital couseling that I was only 98% sure I don't want kids.  That meant I'd keep it instead of giving it up for adoption.  I'm at 100% certain now. 

Just because sex CAN result in pregnancy doesn't mean it HAS to.  I'm a big believer in modern medicine/technology.  Are wanting to travel and not wanting to loose my tiny waist "wrong" reasons?  Maybe.  Do I care? No.  Would putting in ear plugs so a baby wouldn't bother me be wrong?  Probably.  Would I do that?  Absolutely. 

sessionswedding

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:1e3fe459-a563-488d-a885-77be597ef74a">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE]Would putting in ear plugs so a baby wouldn't bother me be wrong?  Probably.  Would I do that?  Absolutely. 
Posted by ochemjenn[/QUOTE]
LOL

xstarx05x

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_quiverfullor-birth-controlor-nfp?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:87c56c51-380c-4075-8c22-6e222e294ce8Post:90b9fa2d-0507-4163-9dd6-f96dde007010">Re: Quiverfull......or Birth Control.....or NFP</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm just shocked at the overall negative perception of HBC.  I have to take it to treat PCOS.  I actually may not be able to have children because the only way my reproductive system isn't running haywire is on HBC, but you have to come off HBC (which would make PCOS symptoms return) to get pregnant, but PCOS symptoms include infertility.  The only permanent treatment for PCOS is a full hysterectomy, which quite obviously means permanent sterilization.  See my catch-22 here? ETA:  Basically, bashing HBC users is like throwing salt in the wound.  I don't have the choice to use NFP.  Those who do should consider themselves lucky, but please don't assume that I'm some bad person for putting a pill in my mouth everyday instead of a thermometer.
Posted by sessionswedding[/QUOTE]

<div>So sorry to hear about your condition and how you feel. I don't want you or anyone to feel mistreated. </div><div>
</div><div>I'm pretty sure someone differentiated taking HBC for medical purposes (can't find the post) as a separate scenario. But regardless, as PP said, none of us can actually judge another's personal situation (i.e. I don't know nor shouldn't judge whether anybody but myself "should be" using HBC or not).</div><div>
</div><div><strong>One thing I'm confident saying is there *are* a lot of couples who use HBC without considering any consequences, so I think this discussion should really be for them: to share information and urge them to pray about whether they really should be using HBC. </strong></div><div>
</div><div>If whoever reads this is already aware of everything that's been shared and prayed about their situation, then don't worry about what everyone else thinks. It's between you and God now. But we should always continue to keep ourselves updated in research and prayers regarding the choices we make.</div><div>
</div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#999999"><em>[I hope I've clarified some things without offending anyone. Even while trying being sensitive to others, this is such a personal topic that we can easily say hurtful things when we're not specific enough.]</em></font></div>

lulubella2011

I'm a FAM girl.  I can't take HBC b/c of circulatory issues; i'm at risk for blood clots.  And I'm pretty grossed out by the other methods of BC out there.  So FAM it is!  And TCOYF is an awesome book!  There are also other forums out there to help you with charting and all the rules involved.