S/O Scriptures - Ephesians 5

iamjoesgurl

Some of the comments in today's post about scriptures caused me to wonder, what do you think it means for a wife to submit to her husband?  We read this scripture in our devotions last night and I love that the scripture goes on to say, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word...husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies.  He who loves his wife loves himself..."

What more perfect picture is there for how a man should love his wife than how Christ loved us and gave His life for us.

Is it just the mis-interpretation of this scripture that people don't like?  I mean, some people misinterpret this scripture to mean that whatever a husband says goes and he should dominate his home.  I don't think that was what Paul meant at all.  Thoughts?

heyimbren

I agree with you, Lisa. I think there's a huge difference between the old meaning of "submit" and what we think of submission now. Submission to us sounds like being a doormat, but I don't believe that's what Paul meant at all, which is also suggested by the other part of the verse that you already referenced to. Everything I've heard about it and read suggests that we are simply misinterpreting the translation. Apparently the Greek sentence of this verse doesn't even include a verb. But it can be inferred from the context, which was common in ancient Greek. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no expert). As well, it doesn't seem to be a command as much as it is a fact- that that is simply the way a marriage functions, according to Paul.

But I think a lot of that also depends on what people see the woman's role as wife in the marriage as being.

kellya01

I tend to agree with your interpretation of Ephesians 5 as well - I will submit to my then-husband's Christian leadership when the time comes.  For the same token, he will treasure me and love me as if I were his own self.  For example, just because a woman submits to her husband does not mean that he has permission to treat her badly -- that is the same as treating himself badly, and likewise treating the church badly in that context.  I think that many people see the word "submit" and think of the webster's dictionary -

Submit –verb (used without object)

5. to yield oneself to the power or authority of another: to submit to a conqueror.

6. to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment: to submit to chemotherapy.

7. to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.: I submit to your superior judgment.

The way I think of "submit" is more like this statement (the rest of this is all from the Maranatha website, not my own words): Although the Bible commands women to submit to their husbands, there isn't one place that it tells men to lord over, command, rule, or govern their wives.
What the Bible does command men to do is love their wives. Actually, the word used is the Greek "agape" love. The same type of love our God displays towards us. However, somewhere along the way, we've lost the meaning of this word.
Agape is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "haceed." Although they had the word in their language, the Greeks didn't use it, as they didn't know what it meant. It actually came from OT covenant. In that context, haceed means "To have an overwhelming desire to give of yourself to the other person, for their benefit, no matter what it costs you." That's what men are supposed to do to their wives!
One other thing, men are to haceed/agape their wives using Christ as our example. In this context, there isn't one place in the Bible where God has commanded us to do anything for His benefit. So, men should only "command" their wives to do those things that are for her benefit. 

Source: http://maranathalife.com/marriage/mar-rel3.htm

rachelea

We kind of had a discussion about this in our premarital counseling intro last weekend. My belief is that God has appointed the husband as the head of the household. In the end all be all, he is the one that makes the decisions that have to made. However that being said, the literal translation of the word used for Eve to Adam was "helpmate". The wife was created to be AT THE SIDE (hence coming form his rib rather than another area of the body), not behind, not below, not under. We work together alongside.

That being said, I know I am very emotional and I tend to let my emotions take the best of me and interfere with my good decision making. My FH is much more rational and is able to see a situation for what it is and make a great decision. We were talking with our pastor and he said that when it comes down to it, it is not the husband's role to make all the decisions, but when a decision needs to be made where the wife can't (such as me wanting the puppy a few weeks ago and FH making the decision that us having a puppy right now is not the best choice for us), the husband needs to make a decision that is best for the wife.

In my submission to Nate (even now before we actually are married) I trust him to make the best decision for our family. We discuss all the decisions to be made together, and trust that we both want what is best for us.

In our household, submissive will not mean not being heard...I make SURE Nate hears me lol

amongthelilies25

you all have great points!

on my pastor did an amazing series on woman a few months ago. the series was called "God's Most Beautiful Creation: women."

He talked about Adam and Eve and how each were made. How God went out to find a "helpmate" that was suitable for Adam and how God made Adam but fashioned Eve. He said that God formed woman and brought her to Adam and Adam spoke life into her and he prophesized her significance into her future. (Genesis 2: 23-24 This is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh.....therefor the man shall leave his mother and father and they shall become one flesh). The man should be the pursuer and "leave his mother and father"......Adam was prophesying over all woman...cuz Adam and Eve didn't have a "mother and father".....they had God. make sense?

ANYWAYS....lol The original design was for womand and man to co-reign. 1 peter 3:7 says that husbands should honor their wives, as heirs together...so that your prayers will not be hindered! wow!!! big statement! 

So..back to Ephesians...it says that husbands should treat their wives as Christ treats the church. Jesus has authority over the bride...but he doesn't use it to rule and control but to uplift and exalt. Man DOES have authority over woman....but what does he do with it? dominate or empower? Christ died for us..to empower us! The same goes with husbands and wives. 

fpaemp2011

Kelley and Rachel- eye2eye

lil_miss_latinist

Lurker popping in--  Sorry for the wall of text, but I'm really passionate about this!

I read Ancient Greek, so I think I'm qualified to at least give a literal translation. I strongly feel that the current available translations of the Greek do not give justice to the words as they were written. Any translator inserts his or her own ideas int the text; however, we rely on translations by or taken from an anti-marriage, ascetic monk named Jerome who would have been condemned by the Church had he not been the only one willing to translate the Bible to Latin! I acknowledge that I have inserted by own ideas into my translation, and my notes are in brackets. However, having worked with Ancient Greek a good deal and having prayed about what I think passages like these men, I think mine is a little closer to Paul's intent.

Ephesians 5

21-- Submitting to each other in fear/reverence of God.

22-- Women, place yourself beneath your husbands as you place yourself beneath the Lord.

23-- So that the man is the head/origin/completion/crown of his wife as Christ is the head/origin/completion of the church even as He is the savior of the body [in this sense, the body of Christ]. [I choose to read it as "completion," therefore making a husband and a wife two halves of one whole.]

24-- But just as the church places itself beneath Christ so also women should place themselves beneath their husbands in all things.

25-- Men, love/cherish/prize your wives just as Christ loves/cherishes/prizes the church and surrendered himself on its [i.e., the church's] behalf [The focus of this sentence in the Greek is on how Christ surrendered himself for the church. This doesn't come out in the English.]

26-- in order that having cleansed it [the church] with a bath of water in the word He might sanctify it,

27-- in order that He might present His own church to himself, not having either a blemish or wrinkle, but that it might be holy and unblemished.

28-- Thus men ought to love/cherish/prize their wives so that he loves his wife as his own body.

My interpretation:

The verbs here that so many versions of the Bible translate as "submit" is in what is called the middle voice. Verbs like this mean that the subject is completing the action for his/her own benefit. If Paul had simply wished to command women to submit to their husbands in every situation, no matter what, he would have used an active verb-- but he didn't!

The Greek has a much greater focus on the actions of Christ, not the actions of the men and women. Paul commands us to willingly put ours wants, needs, and plans beneath the wants, needs, and plans of ourselves, just as Christ willingly gave up His freedom and life for us, even though He was afraid ("Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done"-- Luke 22:42).  

Although the verses for men and women are not the same, the message is. The way we are called to love Christ is the same way as Christ loved us: a voluntary, sacrificial, unconditional love, doing things that we do not wish to do out of love. So, love as you are called to love Christ = love as Christ loved you. 

What Paul was telling husbands and wives is quite radical for the time. The idea of either spouse sacrificing for the other, gender aside, was incredible, because that concept didn't exist at the time.  Marriage was for procreation and for political alliance. It's quite incredible what Paul was calling for, and it's quite disheartening to me, as a scholar of Ancient Greek, to see how translators have twisted his words. 

Going back into lurkerdom now.

iamjoesgurl

lil miss - thanks for given us the insights.  Why do you lurk?  You should make yourself known more often!

BrideToBeBecauseHeLovesMe

Ok I read most so sorry if I repeat but I can't type correctly tonight (my sister's cat sliced my index finger) and I don't feel like reading ALL.

However - from skimming and of most of the reading I'd agree.

My personal thoughts:  Submit now isn't submit then.  Submit as in love, honor, cherish, obey, trust, work together.  NO WAY is it "You do what I say no matter what."  And as we listen to our hubby, they should love us, take care of us, and as we follow them (in a sense) they shouldn't lead us astray.  Not lead like sheep following the shepherd but hopefully you get my point.  I'm kind of being vague - sorry!!