Redshirting Kindergarten?

zsazsa-stl

Is anyone else elderly and watched 60 Minutes last night?  There was a story on people holding their kids out of Kindergarten for a year (so they enter as a 6 year old) and then have a leg up on the other kids (in theory) and can stomp them all in academics and sports.  They made it sound like this is a completely normal practice in affluent white communities.  Although if everyone does it, the purpose is defeated. 

WDWWT?  Nothing wrong with a little strategy?  Or crazy cakes?

GBCK

I missed it, but I've been reading some of today's discussions on it

Doing it for sports is assenine to the nth degree.

Doing it for social maturity is stupid if you don't make an effort to 'make up' social maturity (like, good preschool, etc)

Doing it for school rediness makes *some* sense--because I do believe that if a kid's brain isn't developmentally 'ready' for a concept, it doesn't matter how hard you try to teach it, it won't be ready for that concept.  (although wouldn't that mean a year in good preschool or doing Kindy 2x would be a good thing?)

But all of this, from pushign your 4 YO into a program for 5 YOs to holding back your 5 YO so he's a 6 YO has the same long term crappy result, a 2+ year span of ages instead of a 1+ year span of ages--which makes teaching to the appropraite level that much harder (6 YOs get bored w/ 4 YO concepts.  4 YOs get bored with 6 YO concepts--if they can even get them.)--it's not social maturity or the like, it's just...brain development.

AuntFlo

I've heard of people doing this for boys.  Due to current teaching pratices being biased towards girls, boys mature slower/can't sit still in class/etc.  
And, actually, I've known *several* boys that were held back to repeat kindergarten because they just weren't ready - and this was back in the early 80's, so it's not a new thing.
Although I have never heard it referred to as "redshirting."

baconsmom

They did this in my hometown, only it wasn't redshirting - parents just sent all the kids to "transition", which was a "grade" between kinder and 1st. It was intended for kids who needed a little more time to adjust to school, but Madison was a hyper-competitive, super-rich bedroom community, and everyone wanted their kid to go Ivy League. 

Of course, all those kids were then on an equal footing. This is also the reason I don't really look askance at 17-y-olds dating 14-y-olds; that was only a grade level difference between a transition kid and one like me, who entered school early. There was almost two years between me and most of my classmates. 

I think people who are this invested in their kids are always going to find a way to get an "advantage". I just feel sorry for the kids, having to live out their parents' dreams instead of getting to be the cool little people they really are. 

AuntFlo

Also - quite a few parents and teachers have mentioned to me that DD will have an advantage on her classmates because of her November birthday AND because she's a girl.

6fsn

Yes it happens and I try not to care what other people do with their kids.  Technically 6let with his Sept 18 bday could start next year.  That would mean he would start college at 17 and a career at 21 (assuming a 4 yr college).  We don't want that for him.  I just found an article that only 4.7% of Sept. bdays will start their kids at 4 going on 5 for this school system.  It also said there are 12.5% between 6 and 6.5 and 0.9% over 6.5 (i'm not sure how special needs factors).

*Barbie*

this would really only work if they were prepping their kid at home prior to starting K.

(although would be pretty pointless if all of the parents were doing it..)

I do agree with GBCK that this could backfire if the kid is too advanced for the curriculum. I could see the kid getting bored really easily, because that was me. I started Kindergarten at 5. I could read and do some writing. Even though I was in the "gifted program" from first grade on, and pulled out of class to work on IEP projects, I was still bored a lot of time in class.

If I had a teacher who wasn't supportive, like 7th grade (advanced) pre-algebra, i ended up goofing off and getting in trouble. The teacher was too busy drooling over the couple of cheerleaders in the class and completely dumbed stuff down. I actually learned the first 8 chapters of Algebra in a weekend (the class was up to 6) to try and transfer in to the advanced 8th grade class, but the school wouldn't let me. I could have tested in, so i don't know why it was a problem. I ended up getting the teacher to let me go to the computer lab on a daily basis to play educational games rather than sit in his class.

zsazsa-stl

Redshirting isn't holding kids back because they aren't ready for Kindergarten.  It refers to holding kids back who are completely ready, but their parents just want them to be the biggest, baddest kids in their class rather than just (oh, the horror!) average.

mrsconn23

I saw this when it originally aired.

My opinion?  I'm not paying for full-time daycare for longer than I have to.  And I think it all evens out in the end.  I also think that there's really not enough 'evidence' showing this does wonders for kids.  To each their own.

My sister went to kindergarten at 4 (her b-day is late Sept). She's incredibly smart and was always in honors classes.  She's one of those people that doesn't ever have to study (I kind of hate her for this because I'd study my ass off (especially math) and end up with a C).

baconsmom

Zsa, I meant that transition was supposed to be for kids who were behind, but *everyone* sent their kids to it so they'd be bigger and smarter. I don't think I knew anyone who actually needed it who went. 

(I went to kinder in a different city. It would never have occurred to my parents to deliberately make me more bored than I already was in school by holding me back on purpose.) 

dharmabunny

Yeah, all fabulous. Until you spend an entire year of your majority with the kiddies getting sent to the principal's office. And senior prank vandalism or drug peddling to froshies? Adult charges.

DG1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_redshirting-kindergarten?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:e380b07f-d9f9-417e-92e8-158ea8f30041Post:ea2b6872-9436-4cbe-b583-8d2661862d35">Redshirting Kindergarten?</a>:
[QUOTE]Is anyone else elderly and watched 60 Minutes last night?  There was a story on people holding their kids out of Kindergarten for a year (so they enter as a 6 year old) and then have a leg up on the other kids (in theory) and can stomp them all in academics and sports.  They made it sound like this is a completely normal practice in affluent white communities.  Although if everyone does it, the purpose is defeated.  WDWWT?  Nothing wrong with a little strategy?  Or crazy cakes?
Posted by zsazsa-stl[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>I haven't read the replies yet, but I have very strong opinions on this issue. Not the least of which is the fact that age-based education of any kind (vs. achievement-based or aptitude-based or readiness-based or whatever you want to call it) is royally screwed up.  </div><div>
</div><div>Dex's early October birthday basically redshirts him by default, which is total BS, because he's almost ready for kindergarten now - why should he have to wait 2.5 more years? OTOH, there are plenty of kids with August 31 birthdays who won't be ready for Kindergarten the day after they turn 5. </div><div>
</div><div>My 9/11 birthday would have been a huge issue. I was totally and completely ready for kindergarten and had been writing phoenetic sentences for over a year. Making me wait another year would have made me bored and probably act out (that's what I'm afraid of for Dex). My parents got around it by sending me to a completely private school that didn't have to follow the state's rules to the letter. I am looking into similar options for my kid, with an open mind that while he is intellectually ready, he may or may not be emotionally mature enough for the whole classroom experience until he is "officially" allowed to start.</div><div>
</div><div>Also, I think the primary goal of redshirting is athletic advancement, which makes me SMH at all that is wrong with America, that parents are so willing to take away a full year of their kid's earning power just so they can play better football. If they are NFL material, they will still be NFL material if you don't redshirt them. If they're not, then redshirting isn't going to make any difference.</div><div>
</div><div>
</div><div>Strong feelings, I say.</div>

DG1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_redshirting-kindergarten?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:e380b07f-d9f9-417e-92e8-158ea8f30041Post:6bd26f99-4d15-4d68-b001-4ec3f821cdc5">Re: Redshirting Kindergarten?</a>:
[QUOTE] That would mean he would start college at 17 and a career at 21 (assuming a 4 yr college).  We don't want that for him.  
Posted by 6fsn[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>?? I did this. Turned 18 about 3 weeks into college and started working in June at age 21 and turned 22 in September. That's another whole year toward my social security, and, while it was sometimes tough to be the almost-youngest (there were one or two grade-skippers younger than I by the time we graduated), I wouldn't say it was a horrible thing that must be avoided. If he's academically and emotionally ready, please don't hold him back just because he'll start college a few weeks shy of 18.

</div>

GBCK

if we could truly test (and I don't think we can--I don't think such a test exists, nor would it be 'properly' given if it did) the myrid things that determine readiness (emotional maturity, physical maturity, spatial mechanical skills, intellectual maturity, etc) for kids, then we could do away with age...

but I do think, for now, age is the best 'starting point' we have to figure out readiness.

Heffalump

I did not see this, but I've heard of it around here.  A former boss did this when her kid was kindergarten-age and acted like she invented the idea, but that was way before the Woozle so I hardly listened to her scheming and plotting.

Readiness, yes.  Being the "biggest, baddest" kindergartener, who TF cares?  I just don't feel like that's a measure of success.  Especially not at the expense of potentially stunting your child's development and creating the attitude that school is boring at such a young age.  They have years to learn on their own that school is boring.

DG1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_redshirting-kindergarten?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:47Discussion:e380b07f-d9f9-417e-92e8-158ea8f30041Post:d2638f10-6802-4ec4-8c3e-64b13dd13168">Re: Redshirting Kindergarten?</a>:
[QUOTE]if we could truly test (and I don't think we can--I don't think such a test exists, nor would it be 'properly' given if it did) the myrid things that determine readiness (emotional maturity, physical maturity, spatial mechanical skills, intellectual maturity, etc) for kids, then we could do away with age... but I do think, for now, age is the best 'starting point' we have to figure out readiness.
Posted by GBCK[/QUOTE]

<div>Well, I contend that the imperfect testing available now (IQ testing, testing for certain academic skills like colors, shapes, letters, sounds, counting, etc) are probably better than age-based classifications, since age-based is woefully imperfect as well. I did have to test into that private kindergarten 30 years ago, and things have to have improved dramatically by then. And you can IQ test a 4 or 5 year old. </div><div>
</div><div>Physical maturity is also easily testable. Standing on one foot, jumping with two feet, hopping on one foot, other balance and strength things - definitely testable. The same things used by pediatricians and child development specialists to see if your preschooler is on track or not.</div><div>
</div><div>Emotional maturity is tougher, but observing the kid in a classroom setting for a day is probably going to give you a pretty good clue. </div><div>
</div><div>
</div><div>I mean, *some* parents don't teach their kids anything - either because they don't have the time or don't know that they should or don't know how to if they do know. So there's probably a maximum age - you must start kindergarten by X. (I'd probably make this 6, but still.) And maybe there's some kind of transitional option for parents who want to send their kids at 5 even if the kid hasn't been taught any of the letters/numbers/shapes/colors/whatever. </div><div>
</div><div>
</div><div>My mom has a degree in child development & a phd in education. I will have to ask her how these things are evaluated.</div>

6fsn

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_wedding-woes_redshirting-kindergarten?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:47Discussion:e380b07f-d9f9-417e-92e8-158ea8f30041Post:ce081571-5d56-4650-80aa-b5947339b61b">Re: Redshirting Kindergarten?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Redshirting Kindergarten? : ?? I did this. Turned 18 about 3 weeks into college and started working in June at age 21 and turned 22 in September. That's another whole year toward my social security, and, while it was sometimes tough to be the almost-youngest (there were one or two grade-skippers younger than I by the time we graduated), I wouldn't say it was a horrible thing that must be avoided. If he's academically and emotionally ready, please don't hold him back just because he'll start college a few weeks shy of 18.
Posted by DG1[/QUOTE]

A year of earning potential and social security is hardly a reason to send him either.  We are entering preschool with an open mind that if he IS ready he can go from one year of preschool to kindergarten.  One reason I picked the school I did is because they work very closely with the local school system on child preparedness.  Twenty years of working together and advancing and holding kids as needed was a big selling point. 

Seeing that only 4% of kids enter when they are 4 going on 5 makes me think we are headed in the right direction.

*Barbie*

Wolverine's birthday is in early Nov, so i'm sure the districts here will make sure she's 5 going on 6 before she starts Kindergarten. If her behavior/attitude/intelligence at 20 months is any indication, she could probably be ready to start school at 4 going on 5. One of the reasons we chose the daycare that we did is because it is an accredited school. They have a curriculum for all of the classes (including infants) so she is already used to a clasroom envionment. Since she likely won't be able to start kindergarten in the public system until 5, we'll likely send her to the private kindergarten at her daycare at 4.

NOLABridesmaid

DG, I was 17 in college too, and I don't think it was the end of the world either. Most of the kids that I see that had to wait are year are royally po'ed about it around 8th grade.