"cafeteria catholic"

lindsaynewbride10

Is there anything constructive to say to someone who proudly claims to be a "cafeteria catholic"? So frustrated.

shawna127

If you don't agree with what the church teaches then why would you want to be a catholic?

But I don't know if that would even do any good or get a point across. I understand, it's so frustrating to me!

Riss91

Are they willing to discuss faith? If so, you can always ask questions about what they believe (or don't believe) and why. Then offer your point of view in a non-accusatory way. Show them why you would struggle connecting the dots under their methodology.

If they aren't very open-minded or willing to engage in friendly debate, then it might not get you anywhere to try and talk to them.

In both cases, keep them in your prayers!

Resa77

Ditto the prayers!

I don't think there's any way to say something to them, in one conversation, that will be effective in changing their minds.  Sometimes you just have to plant a seed and let it grow, you know?  But I agree, it's very frustrating!  When a Catholic starts saying they don't believe in a particular Catholic teaching, I typically try to make it a point to mention that I DO believe that BC is wrong, that women can't be priests, etc etc.  That can often lead to questions, which gives a great opportunity for me to spread the truth without seeming overbearing.  I also try to be a positive example of a practicing Catholic by being kind, friendly and respectful of others, and not putting down the Church and her teachings.    Sometimes you teach more by example than with words.  Slow and steady usually wins the conversion/reversion race!

shawna127

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cafeteria-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:1e1aab10-3b53-4a3d-a9a6-4ceeb1fcfabcPost:6cce1913-c3c6-4a02-8d9c-9a4d8048b182">Re: "cafeteria catholic"</a>:
[QUOTE]Ditto the prayers! I don't think there's any way to say something to them, in one conversation, that will be effective in changing their minds.  Sometimes you just have to plant a seed and let it grow, you know?  But I agree, it's very frustrating!  When a Catholic starts saying they don't believe in a particular Catholic teaching, I typically try to make it a point to mention that I DO believe that BC is wrong, that women can't be priests, etc etc.  That can often lead to questions, which gives a great opportunity for me to spread the truth without seeming overbearing.  I also try to be a positive example of a practicing Catholic by being kind, friendly and respectful of others, and not putting down the Church and her teachings.    Sometimes you teach more by example than with words.  Slow and steady usually wins the conversion/reversion race!
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

I love this! Great advice! :o)

femme55

This reminds me of a discussion I had once, "what is the minimum you must believe to be christian?"  I just did a google search replacing "catholic" for "christian," and it seems the answer here is much more than to just be "christian," but I found this response interesting:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=544997

Originally Posted by thistle  Catholics must accept ALL the teachings of the Church. There is not a minimum you can believe in and not believe in others.

Well, sort-of.

First, there is a hierarchy of truth. There are statements which are de fide and others which are designated by other, lessor degrees of certitude. This doesn't mean we can pick-and-choose what we will believe, but it does recognize that some truths are more certain, and more essential, than others.

Next, we are a people of faith, not an intellectual debate club, and we are saved by grace through faith, not by passing a test on essential beliefs.

In addition, we are "those who are BEING saved," as St. Paul writes - we are all works in progress. And it is not God's "will that anyone should perish" - he is patiently calling us to accept the gift of grace and to grow in the faith. 

One becomes a Catholic by being baptized or received into the Church. One lives out ones catholic faith, nurturing and growing it or ignoring and starving it. And for the most part, one is judged by God at death, not by the Church in life (public declarations of excommunication are rare, and even that declaration, according to Scripture, is made in the hope that the person will ultimately return to grace).

It is possible to be a poorly catechised catholic, an ignorant catholic, even a rebellious catholic - one is, in fact, still catholic.

Our obligation is to reach out, always, to encourage and even to correct - not to condemn. (Spiritual works of mercy . . .)

professorscience

Femme,

Isn't part of belonging to any faith the acceptance of the teachings of that faith?  It comes up a lot that it's not necessarily "bad" to disagree with a particular teaching of the church, but there has to be a willingness to at the very least obey with the faith that God knows best and wouldn't ask anything of us that was wrong or bad for us.  And to study and hopefully through a deeper understanding maybe accept and agree with that particular teaching.

I don't think anyone was suggesting condemnation, but it's also not great to just let a person continue being wrong.

monkeysip

I think it comes down to being authentic and humble.

If someone says, "this teaching doesn't make sense to me, but I trust God's church and will submit to its teachings"... that's one thing. 

It's another for people to be inauthentic and arrogant in thinking that THEY must know better because THEY understand everything perfectly.  Basically, it requires no submission of will on their part, and in reality, who are they really worshipping?  Themselves.  If you make up your own religion... you are your own god. 

Being Catholic is about submitting to the truth, and ultimately, to a person (Jesus Christ).

lindsaynewbride10

So sorry I haven't responded until now. Unfortunately the person I'm talking about doesn't just disagree with a few things, she basically claimed to disagree with all of the Church's positions on things such as gay marriage, abortion, BC, etc. It was really quite stunning to hear her talk about it, and then she goes on to proudly proclaim her cafeteria-catholic-ness. I just. Yes. I will pray for her and her family, as I'm sure she is raising her kids to have the same beliefs. Thanks for all of the feedback!

Riss91

Just be kind and patient. You can be clear about your agreement with the Church without "show-ponying" around. If she's not in a receptive state, don't escalate any arguments. Just be a good example of the faith. And PRAY!

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cafeteria-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1e1aab10-3b53-4a3d-a9a6-4ceeb1fcfabcPost:09ab2746-6bb9-45f2-8d8d-6050877727d6">Re: "cafeteria catholic"</a>:
[QUOTE]As Resa says, just because I don't believe in some teachings doesn't mean I don't believe Catholicism is the true Church of Jesus Christ. And it's not just that, I love the feeling of attending Mass, I have never been to the Mass of another Christian denomonation, but I know the spiritual connection that I feel when I attend. There is also a sense of community that comes with a parish, especially a small one that I attend; I have attended (albeit, not close to regularly) the same church from the time I was 6 years old. I've been a "member" of the congregation for about 17 years - that's not something I'm ready to just "give up" on because I have a disagreement or am questioning things. You won't divorce your husband because you have  a post-commitment doubt. You will most likely discuss it and pray on it. That's how I feel most people should go about their relationship with their church. I am more "spiritual" than "religious" but there are some fundamental things about religion that are very important to me.
Posted by sydaries[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I have a question for you then, and I promise its not meant to be snarky, it really is an honest question, because I'm not following the logic. </div><div>
</div><div>Since you believe that Catholicism is the true church of Jesus Christ, do you think he would allow it to teach wrong things? He promised the Holy Spirit in Matthew 16 to prevent the Church from teaching error.  I believe Him when He said that.</div><div>
</div><div>
</div>

femme55

He promised the Holy Spirit in Matthew 16 to prevent the Church from teaching error.  I believe Him when He said that.

Which particular verse are you referring to?  I can't find the specific reference in Matthew.  I Did find this in John:

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." 22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" 23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. 25 "All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.


Question: how does the RC church solely lay claim to this? Martin Luther was previously a Catholic before he started the Reformation. How do we know Martin Luther wasn't receiving the Truth?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther

agapecarrie

Matthew 16: 13-20

Keys given to Peter, the first pope. The papacy has direct succession, as well as all of the priests, can draw their lineage through the bishops, through back to Peter.

Gates of hell will not prevail against it. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.

Jesus didn't give the keys to Luther. Luther started his own faith. Jesus didn't build the church upon Luther. He built upon Peter.

agapecarrie

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/how-do-we-know-it%E2%80%99s-the-true-church

http://www.catholic.com/browse/Papacy/all/all/all

femme55

thanks for the info.  so would the claim to divine authority by the church only relate to things pronounced "ex cathedra"?  It just seems like a lot of wrongs throughout history have been committed by religious authority figures (catholics and others), and to give divine authority to a particular set of human beings seems uncomfortable to me.  If this set of figures (popes) can be protected from error for things pronounced ex cathedra, then why such different outcomes otherwise (I am thinking of decidedly "un-Christ-like" things in history like torture of purported heretics, execution of galileo, etc.)

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cafeteria-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1e1aab10-3b53-4a3d-a9a6-4ceeb1fcfabcPost:237d2c05-9e10-4d34-b353-15d5bbaf51cb">Re: "cafeteria catholic"</a>:
[QUOTE]thanks for the info.  so would the claim to divine authority by the church only relate to things pronounced "ex cathedra"?  It just seems like a lot of wrongs throughout history have been committed by religious authority figures (catholics and others), and to give divine authority to a particular set of human beings seems uncomfortable to me.  If this set of figures (popes) can be protected from error for things pronounced ex cathedra, then why such different outcomes otherwise (I am thinking of decidedly "un-Christ-like" things in history like torture of purported heretics, execution of galileo, etc.)
Posted by femme55@hotmail.com[/QUOTE]

You are mixing 2 different things. actions of people, verses teaching in faith and morals. Completely separate. The pope can't infallibly predict a game score. He goes to confession when he sins. This is not the same thing as being united with the church in teachings of faith and morals. <div>
</div><div>Ex cathedra refers to specific statements made by a pope with that title. this is considered infallible. However, the bishops united with the magisterium, with the pope, can also be infallible. The church has never ever changed her teachings in faith and morals. ever. 
<div><div>
</div><div>some more to the story with Galileo:</div></div><div><a href="http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy" rel="nofollow">http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-controversy</a></div></div>

s-aries8990

Carrie, to be honest, I'm not sure. I know it's not a good answer, but it's the only answer I have

I'm not at all well read in the scripture by any means and am still working through this all. I'm finding out now that my CCD classes growing up were more focused on "crossing the finish line" (fufillment of the sacraments) than reading the scripture and discussing it. It was more about regurgitating information for blow-pops and hershey bars than gaining a solid understanding and foundation.

Now that you've asked that question, I'm asking myself even more questions. No offence to anyone on this board (I came here to learn more about the applied teachings of the church I was raised in!!!!) but now I'm questioning what is right and wrong and if what the Church teaches is wrong is REALLY wrong. For a long time I've been unsure of the infallibility of the pope and the sin of not attending mass.

I guess I have some homework to do.

Lindsay - I think that it's awful to go around proudly saying you disagree with u,v,w,x,y, & z but still give full allegiance to that church you disagree with. I know I have some disagreements and questions but I'm not pretending that I'm above the teachings of the church I belong to.

Riss91

syd - it sounds like we had similar backgrounds. I definitely had a lot of thinking, re-thinking and investigating to do for myself. Please don't ever apologize for trying to understand the faith. Challenging these ideas is the exact right thing to do. Please feel free to ask as many questions and challenge as many ideas as you'd like on this board. Or PM one of us if you'd rather discuss more privately. I applaud anyone who seeks to find the truth with an open mind and heart.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cafeteria-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1e1aab10-3b53-4a3d-a9a6-4ceeb1fcfabcPost:30144fe3-fc49-4abc-b09a-0de5656f8a35">Re: "cafeteria catholic"</a>:
[QUOTE]Carrie, to be honest, I'm not sure. I know it's not a good answer, but it's the only answer I have I'm not at all well read in the scripture by any means and am still working through this all. I'm finding out now that my CCD classes growing up were more focused on "crossing the finish line" (fufillment of the sacraments) than reading the scripture and discussing it. It was more about regurgitating information for blow-pops and hershey bars than gaining a solid understanding and foundation. Now that you've asked that question, I'm asking myself even more questions. No offence to anyone on this board (I came here to learn more about the applied teachings of the church I was raised in!!!!) but now I'm questioning what is right and wrong and if what the Church teaches is wrong is REALLY wrong. For a long time I've been unsure of the infallibility of the pope and the sin of not attending mass. I guess I have some homework to do. Lindsay - I think that it's awful to go around proudly saying you disagree with u,v,w,x,y, & z but still give full allegiance to that church you disagree with. I know I have some disagreements and questions but I'm not pretending that I'm above the teachings of the church I belong to.
Posted by sydaries[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Thanks for your honesty, and thank you for looking into it. </div><div>
</div><div>For what its worth, I use to question and doubt a lot about church teachings. Then I started studying the things I doubted... and realize that each time, every teaching I looked into made complete sense, and after that happened over and over and over, I realized that maybe 2000 years of unchanged church teaching, explained to us by 2000 years of cardinals and bishops, using checks and balances and people of deep prayer with concern for their own souls if they were to mislead the flock, just might know a thing or two more than I do. </div><div>
</div><div>I learned that all of my doubts and questions had been asked over and over too. It was really humbling to remind myself that I wasn't the first person to bring it up, and they have it covered. When I learned the why behind the teachings, I started to embrace the actual law, because I saw how loving and good it is.</div><div>
</div><div>I think a good thing to remember is that sin is not sin just for its own sake, or some arbitrary rule. God is only offended when we do things that harm ourselves. The church has defined more explicitly as needed what those things are as we need them. (IVF wasn't an issue hundreds of years ago), but they are always based on deeper basic truths of natural and divine law. When I learned TOB more deeply, and then especially regarding the wounds that people have due to these sins, it becomes so clear that there is a reason that things are labled sins-- because its bringing harm on ourselves. 

</div>

Calypso1977

i think most catholics have questioned their faith at some point - i know i have.

Resa77

In Response to Re::[QUOTE]i think most catholics have questioned their faith at some point i know i have. Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

I agree! Questioning, even if it doesn't begin with much faith at all, can often lead to great spiritual growth.

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cafeteria-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1e1aab10-3b53-4a3d-a9a6-4ceeb1fcfabcPost:30144fe3-fc49-4abc-b09a-0de5656f8a35">Re: "cafeteria catholic"</a>:
[QUOTE]Carrie, to be honest, I'm not sure. I know it's not a good answer, but it's the only answer I have I'm not at all well read in the scripture by any means and am still working through this all. I'm finding out now that my CCD classes growing up were more focused on "crossing the finish line" (fufillment of the sacraments) than reading the scripture and discussing it. It was more about regurgitating information for blow-pops and hershey bars than gaining a solid understanding and foundation. Now that you've asked that question, I'm asking myself even more questions. No offence to anyone on this board (I came here to learn more about the applied teachings of the church I was raised in!!!!) but now I'm questioning what is right and wrong and if what the Church teaches is wrong is REALLY wrong. For a long time I've been unsure of the infallibility of the pope and the sin of not attending mass. I guess I have some homework to do. Lindsay - I think that it's awful to go around proudly saying you disagree with u,v,w,x,y, & z but still give full allegiance to that church you disagree with.<strong> I know I have some disagreements and questions but I'm not pretending that I'm above the teachings of the church I belong to.</strong>
Posted by sydaries[/QUOTE]

The bolded is such an amazing statement and an extremely wise one.  I agree, esepcially when first coming into the faith, I questioned it.  But the more I researched it and questioned it, the more I understood it and was confident in its teachings.

bibliophile2010

I think most of us on here have had times of doubt, even serious doubt. I know I rejected most of the unpopular teachings of the Church at one point, but through prayer and learning, came to a better, deeper understanding. I don't think any faith is mature without having been tested. I applaud anyone who seeks Truth.

Ajuliana

Real Catholics believe in the core teachings of the church, aka the Creeds we recite in Church.  Everything else is interpretations of ancient scriptures applied to modern day technologies and situations.  Different priests preach different things, and different popes preach different things!  (Anyone remember condoms being ok'd to decrease the passing of AIDS?)

The point is that God gave us each a mind to delve into our faith and beliefs and the scriptures, and as long as we believe in the core teachings of the Church, and honestly follow our faith where it leads us, someone is a Catholic.  I say this as someone who was told by my family I was going to go to hell for being a Democrat, which is such an uninformed, unChristlike statement.  

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cafeteria-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1e1aab10-3b53-4a3d-a9a6-4ceeb1fcfabcPost:95136261-2bc8-4fc5-9809-e6a3d0a6c6e4">Re: "cafeteria catholic"</a>:
[QUOTE]Real Catholics believe in the core teachings of the church, aka the Creeds we recite in Church.  Everything else is interpretations of ancient scriptures applied to modern day technologies and situations.  Different priests preach different things, and different popes preach different things!  (Anyone remember condoms being ok'd to decrease the passing of AIDS?) The point is that God gave us each a mind to delve into our faith and beliefs and the scriptures, and as long as we believe in the core teachings of the Church, and honestly follow our faith where it leads us, someone is a Catholic.  I say this as someone who was told by my family I was going to go to hell for being a Democrat, which is such an uninformed, unChristlike statement.  
Posted by Alaynajuliana[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>This is very incorrect.</div><div>
</div><div>First off, condoms were NOT okd. </div><div>
</div><div>2nd, The teaching of the church, all of them are guarded by the Magisterium and the the Holy Spirit through the vicar of Christ, the pope. Pope's have never taught "different things". Church teachings have never changed, and they will not change.</div><div>
</div><div>Some priests, either out of ignorance, misguided sympathy, or malicious disobedience have taught improper and incorrect things, that does not in any way change what teachings are true.</div><div>
</div><div>You can find the teachings of the Catechism.

</div>

lalaith50

[QUOTE]Real Catholics believe in the core teachings of the church, aka the Creeds we recite in Church.  Everything else is interpretations of ancient scriptures applied to modern day technologies and situations.  Different priests preach different things, and different popes preach different things!  (Anyone remember condoms being ok'd to decrease the passing of AIDS?) The point is that God gave us each a mind to delve into our faith and beliefs and the scriptures, and as long as we believe in the core teachings of the Church, and honestly follow our faith where it leads us, someone is a Catholic.  I say this as someone who was told by my family I was going to go to hell for being a Democrat, which is such an uninformed, unChristlike statement.  
Posted by Alaynajuliana[/QUOTE]
OMF-ingGosh!!!!!<div>At least get your facts straight if you're going to try and argue that teachings change. </div><div><a href="http://pop.org/content/pope-benedict-misquoted-condoms-again" rel="nofollow">http://pop.org/content/pope-benedict-misquoted-condoms-again</a></div><div>(which, btw, doctrine and dogma DO NOT and CANNOT, NEVER HAVE, and NEVER WILL change. That includes condoms...)</div><div>Stupid individual priests can make their own stupid interpretations, but the official teaching of the Church CAN NEVER change.</div><div>
</div><div>Next time you read some controversy about the Church, try actually researching it, instead of just believing the little snippet that HuffPost gives you, k?</div>

s-aries8990

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cafeteria-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:1e1aab10-3b53-4a3d-a9a6-4ceeb1fcfabcPost:95136261-2bc8-4fc5-9809-e6a3d0a6c6e4">Re: "cafeteria catholic"</a>:
[QUOTE]Real Catholics believe in the core teachings of the church, aka the Creeds we recite in Church.  Everything else is interpretations of ancient scriptures applied to modern day technologies and situations.  Different priests preach different things, and different popes preach different things!  (Anyone remember condoms being ok'd to decrease the passing of AIDS?) <strong>The point is that God gave us each a mind to delve into our faith and beliefs and the scriptures, and as long as we believe in the core teachings of the Church, and honestly follow our faith where it leads us, someone is a Catholic.</strong>  I say this as someone who was told by my family I was going to go to hell for being a Democrat, which is such an uninformed, unChristlike statement.  
Posted by Alaynajuliana[/QUOTE]

I defer to others for the accuracy of your claims.  I do agree that we each have our own minds to delve into our faith, but I DON'T agree that agreeing with the core beliefs makes us Catholic (it does make us Christian though). This is what I'm dealing with where I am finding myself asking questions. If at the end of my journey I find that I fundementally can't agree with the catechism, I can no longer claim to be Catholic because it just won't be true.  Your political beliefs don't mean your going to hell, but they are very telling of your values - I believe that science and religion can go hand in hand, but sometimes personal beliefs cannot be separated from religious beliefs (and if you say they are separte, than you can't really call yourself a true Catholic --- AGAIN, another probelm I'm going through)