NWR: Question about Baptisms

Eliz77

So, after reading this board the past couple of months, the common statement has been how marriage outside the Church puts people at odds with the Church and invalids them from receiveing sacraments. There was a thread a month or so ago where a poster implied all children are born perfect and innocent and that their parents' "sins" make them imperfect or something along that line, which got me thinking...
...If a couple get married outside the Church, how are they allowed to baptize their children in the Church?
I have a family member who had a baby out of wedlock and was not permitted to have the baby baptized until she forgave herself of her sin, which I found alarming. But I have other family/friends who were married outside the Church, even with one parent being baptized Catholic, and yet have been freely allowed to baptize their children. 
Just wondering how it works!

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-question-about-baptisms?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:22772958-a71e-4bde-af8a-eadfb4c95e92Post:fb5a83c6-7c13-47b1-8e2d-819064575025">Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms</a>:
[QUOTE]OK, but it doesn't really have to do with the topic on this particular thread. I sent you a PM out of respect for my fellow posters to not keep the argumentative tone of this thread and getting further off topic.
Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]


Feel sorry for Father A.  He's the one that I C&P all agapes posts for so that he can reassure me that neither the Church, nor I, have lost their marbles

ellen73

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-question-about-baptisms?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:22772958-a71e-4bde-af8a-eadfb4c95e92Post:2d7d1e18-023b-4922-91cd-deb58f78fd6f">Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms : Maybe, yes, no and possibly both. This isn't straight out math we are dealing with. Addictions are often a result of hole... we try to fill.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Or addictions are the result of having a genetic predisposition- it's well known that there are a cluster of genes in Chromosome 11 that are altered in people with a predisposition to alcoholism.  Interestingly,  alterations of these same genes are prevelant in children with eating disorders (children meaning under 13).  

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-question-about-baptisms?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:22772958-a71e-4bde-af8a-eadfb4c95e92Post:85b62d31-e3f7-4e1e-99e2-79802d072542">Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms : Or addictions are the result of having a genetic predisposition- it's well known that there are a cluster of genes in Chromosome 11 that are altered in people with a predisposition to alcoholism.  Interestingly,  alterations of these same genes are prevelant in children with eating disorders (children meaning under 13).  
Posted by ellen73[/QUOTE]


hey, Ellen,I'm an Elin. 

Wanna make something out of it, talk to my dad!

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-question-about-baptisms?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:22772958-a71e-4bde-af8a-eadfb4c95e92Post:85b62d31-e3f7-4e1e-99e2-79802d072542">Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms : Or addictions are the result of having a genetic predisposition- it's well known that there are a cluster of genes in Chromosome 11 that are altered in people with a predisposition to alcoholism.  Interestingly,  alterations of these same genes are prevelant in children with eating disorders (children meaning under 13).  
Posted by ellen73[/QUOTE]

<div>Yes, the physical disposition is a result of wounds...that make that hole all the more apparent. </div><div>
</div><div>And OOT, stop it. All I do is say what church teaching is. </div>

monkeysip

I'm slightly confused by the way Agape has chosen to word some of these things, but overall, she is correct.

Read the catechism 400-408.

Some of the key points:

400--"The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul's spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject 'to its bondage to decay'."

403--"Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam's sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the 'death of the soul'"

407--"The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free."

Any genetic or biological defects that man are a result of the fall of man--which is connected to the general fall of creation and the loss of paradise.  In Genesis, man was not meant to work for his labor, suffer death, or even eat animals.  After the fall, man's body is corrupted and prone to sin and disease.

The connection between sin and disease is made even more clear through the gospels.  Before Jesus ever heals someone, he always forgives their sins.  Whenever a priest gives someone the sacrament of the annointing of the sick, he forgives the person's sins first.

Like Agape clarified, disease/injuries/etc. are NOT punishments from God for sin.  But they are connected to the overall corruption of our bodies through the fall of creation.  

Eliz77

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-question-about-baptisms?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:22772958-a71e-4bde-af8a-eadfb4c95e92Post:85b62d31-e3f7-4e1e-99e2-79802d072542">Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms : Or addictions are the result of having a genetic predisposition- it's well known that there are a cluster of genes in Chromosome 11 that are altered in people with a predisposition to alcoholism.  Interestingly,  alterations of these same genes are prevelant in children with eating disorders (children meaning under 13).  
Posted by ellen73[/QUOTE]
<div style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10px;background-color:initial;background-image:none;background-attachment:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial;color:#1f1f1f;font:normal normal normal 11px/14px Arial, sans-serif;text-align:left;line-height:normal;"><div>One of my best friends grew up with alcoholics and an abusive father. She herself has struggled with anxiety and eating disorders as a teenager (not an alcoholic) and her adopted daugter had shown some similar tendencies when she went through puberty. Luckily, the signs were recognized, they got her help and is now thriving in college, nicest, smartest kid. So some traits are also nuture Vs nature. </div><div>
</div><div>I understand we are all predisposed to certain actions and behaviors and some mental illness and addictions are definitely inherited. My parents are animal lovers, and what do you know-I have various animals and devote hobbies and careers to them. I don't have any mental illnesses in my family and don't seem to have any myself. My hearing loss was the result of an accident, not something inherited, not sure what "original sin" a 2 year old commits to result in a life altering accident, so I presume it implies it's a belief that was passed down by my folks, since I was baptized at that point. Regardless, still unclear why this thread unfolded as it did. As a kid, my mom was told to take me to one of those wound cleansing masses, and I was more in shock of the rest of the crowd crying and at loss for why they weren't "fixed" then I was about being cleansed for sins myself. But I was only 4 years old so what did I know. </div><div>
</div><div>That all makes sense to me...this was not the intent of my thread and I'm sorry it's gone so far to become something entirely else. I was asking if the actions of parents, which should keep them out of the Church, would affect the children from being baptized, and how said parents could be Godparents. Really unsure what one has to do with the other, but thanks for the responses and PMs! I'll be speaking with my Priest Tuesday so will get a few things cleared up for myself.</div></div>

Riss91

This is not a discussion of nature/nurture. The point is that everything in this world that is imperfect (whether it was imperfect from day one, or became imperfect over time) is a result of the collective "us". God created man (collective "man") perfectly. We (collectivlely since the Creation of man) corrupted that perfection through sin and disobedience. This is where original sin stems from. If we hadn't corrupted this, everything would always be perfect.

So, yes, there can be imperfections brought about biologically or through life experience, but the root of all of it is the faults of mankind.

OOT - you absolutely need to stop making those comments about carrie. I am done with it and I will not tolerate it any further. Please block her or refrain from making offensive comments about her.

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-question-about-baptisms?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:22772958-a71e-4bde-af8a-eadfb4c95e92Post:d0419a22-0296-4ce6-9841-60ea863f0578">Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms : That makes sense to me. Is there ever an incident where a Priest would request a marriage license in such situation or could a couple be lying?<strong> I have no idea if they lied. All I know if the wife got a note from the Parish she is registered at in her town, event hough I know the only times she set foot in there was for her kids' baptisms. I guess we'll know her intentions once it is time for the oldest to start CCD.  I just feel if there are such strigent rules for marriage inside the Church, choosing the proper people to be Godparents has to also have tighter rules. </strong>I was just sharing this topic with a (Catholic) friend and she told me her sister just took part in a Baptism and had to go through some sort of course. So, I guess the whole some parishes have more hoops to go through and some are more lenient takes a major role in picking  Godparents. Now that I think about it...I can understand why the woman with the baby out of wedlock may need forgiveness before she could receive the sacrament again, but I didn't feel the baby should be prevented from being baptized because of his mother's sins. But because she is also a very religious person, I think it was more about her punishing herself than the Church punishing her child. It all turned out well for her and her child. And I think both "situations" I mentioned above will turn out well for all involved as well. Just was curious! 
Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I think, as Riss said, it's going to vary from parish to parish.  Also, I know many pretty areligious people who name "godparents," without any real knowledge of what that means.  H and I were even asked by some Lutheran friends of ours about being godparents for their daughter.  The mother actually said, "Well, I don't think it means the same thing in the Lutheran church as it does in the Catholic church."  Why, then, would you want a non-Lutheran godparent who doesn't understand the meaning? </div><div>
</div><div>As for the marriage question, I know H's cousin named two unmarried (and not dating) people as godparents for her baby, so I can see where one wouldn't need to prove a sacramental marriage in order to be godparents.

</div>

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-question-about-baptisms?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:22772958-a71e-4bde-af8a-eadfb4c95e92Post:4f5712a7-db6a-49fb-a8de-ce26610701b5">Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms</a>:
[QUOTE]This is not a discussion of nature/nurture. The point is that everything in this world that is imperfect (whether it was imperfect from day one, or became imperfect over time) is a result of the collective "us". God created man (collective "man") perfectly. We (collectivlely since the Creation of man) corrupted that perfection through sin and disobedience. This is where original sin stems from. If we hadn't corrupted this, everything would always be perfect. So, yes, there can be imperfections brought about biologically or through life experience, but the root of all of it is the faults of mankind. OOT - you absolutely need to stop making those comments about carrie. I am done with it and I will not tolerate it any further. Please block her or refrain from making offensive comments about her.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

riss, PM

Eliz77

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-question-about-baptisms?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:22772958-a71e-4bde-af8a-eadfb4c95e92Post:b42ea0a2-2b02-4e1a-9213-a1c0b3e85090">Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Question about Baptisms : I think, as Riss said, it's going to vary from parish to parish.  Also, I know many pretty areligious people who name "godparents," without any real knowledge of what that means.  H and I were even asked by some Lutheran friends of ours about being godparents for their daughter.  The mother actually said, "Well, I don't think it means the same thing in the Lutheran church as it does in the Catholic church."  Why, then, would you want a non-Lutheran godparent who doesn't understand the meaning?  As for the marriage question, I know H's cousin named two unmarried (and not dating) people as godparents for her baby, so I can see where one wouldn't need to prove a sacramental marriage in order to be godparents.
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]
I really wasn't questioning the validity of their marriage per say-since both of my godparents are not married or even together-just if they were out of favor of the church due to marriage outside the Church, I was surprised the Chruch would allow them to be Godparents since you have to provide a note stating you are in good standing with the Church. My guess is some things are overlooked, maybe not intenionally.