Catholic marrying a non-Catholic

agapecarrie

First of all, it isn't my "opinion". My opinion means nothing. What matters is the truth. Truth cannot change, otherwise it isn't truth. God doesn't change, He is constant.

The church has never ever ever changed any doctrine in faith and morals. Ever. Certain disciplines have changed, but not doctrines.

Your first statement there is uncalled for and absolutely incorrect. I can't tell you how many people have converted that have told me that one thing or another I've talked about has helped them (I'm not claiming any kind of sole reasons for their conversion, just an aid). People want to hear the TRUTH. By the way, there isn't a "decline" in the church. It is growing. Our seminary is overflowing and we are expanding. The ones that stand for truth and hold to the church's teachings are the ones that more people flock to.

Another comment you made about scripture written 2000 years ago: Do you not believe the canons of scripture hold true? Do the 10 commandments not count anymore because they given to Moses? The church follows Scipture and tradition, and follows natural law. 

What I have said here IS indeed what the church teaches, even today. These are the current practices. If one marries outside the church, they cannot receive communion. Why is it so hard for people to understand this? If they are fine following the laws of the state with marriage, how come the church (which is Christ's bride and has the authority to make certain requirements) can't have laws? 

I work for the church, I know what the church teaches and the current disciplines, practices, etc. 

Christ gave peter, the first pope the keys to heaven, and said the gates of hell will not prevail against it. The church has the authority here, and what I've stated here you can look up in the catehchism, canon law, or the GIRM. I have not swayed one bit from what the church teaches. It is most certainly not my opinion. I'm merely restating what is already there. 

agapecarrie

Regarding "shunning"...

The church doesn't shun anyone....and I never stated it did. Do NOT put words in my mouth or twist them.

If someone chooses to commit serious sin, they pull themselves out of communion. It is the person's choice, NOT the church's. The church is looking out for souls and calls people to pursue holiness. 

There are scriptures written about receiving the body and blood unworthily. It is in the catechism and scripture about how we all must make a good examiniation of conscience before receiving the Eucharist. God saw to it that Mary was sinless in order to Host Jesus in her body, why should we be any less.

And one more thing...I've not made ONE judgmental comment. ever. I have never presumed to know the state of a person's soul, or said they were going to hell. Ever.

We are called, however, to judge actions. Saying the murder is wrong is NOT judging a person, it is stating what is natural moral law given to us by design by God. 

princessbride1981

Yet again, I'm glad you took the time to reinforce your own personal opinion.  There are many like you who still hold on to what the church used to be like, instead of embracing the current position of the church, good for you.

Your comments so far have been highly judgemental.  If you think otherwise, re-read for the eyes of an onlooker (trying to put aside your religious bias). 

Leave the preaching to the clergy, that's not your responsibility nor your duty.  This thread was started to help someone out in their journey into marriage.  Somehow you've turned it into a personal vendetta to convert or coerce their FI into catholocism.  That's not our job.  We're all here to help, not discourage or hurt as you have been.  

OP, You are absolutely fine.  Either getting married in the church, or outside of the church, as long as the correct permission is given, you're ok.  You're not going to be looked down upon, that would be hypocritical and unchristian (sor of like agapecarrie).  We should all be very happy that you have found a nice, contemporary priest that will allow your belled union.  

I come from a family of good catholics, includind menbers of the clergy.  None of them would have ever spoken as you have.  A good catholic helps, provides and nurtures.  A bible beater such as yourself, that takes everything literally, and excludes the fact that we are all human is where this religion suffers.  Catholocism is not perfect, no religion is, and you  must treat it as such. I'm not even going to get into how our religion, that  I believe in, is not perfect, please don't force me to as I do not want to ruin this joyus thread.  

Get with the times, grow as our religion has, and be helpful to any and all who need it.  

agapecarrie

Please show me documentation of what you think the church teaches currently...the "current position" of the church as you put it.

You can't. It's not there. 

Yet I can quote the catechism about receiving the Eucharist in the state of grace. I can quote the canon law about and the GIRM regarding rules for the mass and marriages, and all sacraments. THIS is what the church teaches. This is NOT my opinion. It's in black and white.

It most certainly IS my dute to do the corporal and spiritual works of mercy, and to proclaim the Gospel. That is everyone's job, not just the ordained. 

For you to call me "unchristian" in such a snide and sarcastic manner is really telling. THAT is what is judgemental. I have made no such claim about anyone here. Ever. I have NEVER commented on the state of someone's soul. If you are accusing me of judgement, you prove it. You can't.

Using the terms " bible beater" and "literally" do not make much sense. The church doesn't take scripture literally. 

If you are going to assert such accusations, back it up. You can't.

lalaith50

princessbride, we're waiting for it... 

how about instead of throwing around unfounded (and judgemental in themselves!) accusations, you give some concrete examples of exactly WHAT agapecarrie said that was "judgemental" or "hypocritical," and not just plain fact of what the Catholic Church teaches.

Eliz77

Well, I'm not princess but can say I personally found agape to be criticizing and judging me for my decisions. I started this thread for advice on what I was stressed over and wanted to figure out how to make things work for me, not to be told my marriage or stance in the Church would not be accepted. As for "hypocritical":

"a Catholic is not considered married when married outside the church."

"we are trying to tell you that you will not "be married" if you marry outside the church. The state does not have the authority to marry you. Only God does. This is one of the reasons I question the fact that there are civil marriages. People don't seem to understand that just because the law says you are married doesn't mean you are."

And when I stated I respect other marriages regardless whether a couple has been married in the church I got this:

"The catholic church believes that non-Catholics are validly married wherever they choose to do so. We "respect" their marriages."

Sounds conflicting to me.

I think we can all agree there are things that was once preached to be OK that is no longer considered legal or moral-slavery, selling your daughter, altar sacrifices, etc. And just like this priest is not refusing to marry me and my FI for living together, that to me shows the Church has evolved as customs have changed. Who knows, one day things that are frowned upon today may be accepted in the future.

Since my biggest concern has been resolved and I was granted to proceed with my upcoming wedding, I don't need to debate whether living together should prevent marriage or a baptized Catholic is wrong for not being confirmed. Can't predict the future, all I know is I'm at peace with my decisions. Thanks again to those that offered support and advised to seek out another priest. 

Riss91

princessbride - your comments are completely inappropriate and you need to take it down a notch. Name calling and insults are NOT allowed in this forum. You can respectfully disagree - but that must be RESPECTFUL.

I completely disagree with you. An organization that is based on TRUTH would NEVER change the TRUTH simply because society has determined that some of its "rules" are not convenient for people living in "modern" times. If it did, then it would be obvious that it is not an organization based on the truth, because Truth does not change.

I find that attitudes like YOURS are the reason that people THINK the Church is on the decline. It's simply not true. Attitudes like YOURS make people that follow these "outdated" rules feel like that must do so secretly, or be harrassed and teased by those around them. How is that "nice and Christian"?

I get that it's easier to say "the Church is wrong and needs to change" than to say (and follow through with) "the Church is RIGHT and WE need to change". But nothing worth having comes easy.

I encourage you to stick around and challenge us and our ideas. It's good for everyone. But you need to do so from a perspective of learning and growing and NOT from a perspective of insulting and scoffing. You can offer your opinion in a non-judmental way, which, yes, YOU were doing yourself.

Please think more carefully before responding. Make sure your motives are right. I won't tolerate harassment.

princessbride1981

Here's a few examples of the hypocracy going on.  I myself did not come up with this, but it's a perfect example of how things change with time.  You need to realize that things are different now, and your extremely orthodox beliefs are not shared by all, and do not help the OP in her time of need.  The OP is here for help and guidance for a way TO GET MARRIED IN THE CHURCH, not for your opinions on why she can not.

Again, I did not come up with this (wish I did)  it is an excerpt from: http://www.cafemom.com/journals/read/1560067/Letter_to_Dr_Laura_about_the_Bible_homosexuality_and_other_laws

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbours. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. Clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16.Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Now, try to think in modern fashion, where things are not as clear cut and strict as they used to be.  

I myself was involved in a similar situation as the OP.  One priest would frown upon my behavior and another would embrace it.  You have your strict and leniant.  Either way, in the eyes of GOD, you are still his child.  Will her groom go to hell if he does not convert, I think not.. and if you can factually prove otherwise, please do.  

Just a few more.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (rape's ok as long as your pay her father and marry her)

Judges 11:29-40 (human sacrifice)

agapecarrie

I don't know how to explain it any clearer.

A CATHOLIC is bound by canonical form. They must be married in the church. NON-CATHOLICS are NOT bound by this form and do not have to be married according to the laws of the church. How exactly is this hypocritical or conflicting for the church to honor marriages of those that are not catholic?

Just as people in New York are bound to follow those laws and are not bound to follow the laws of Michigan. People in the US are not bound to follow the laws of England.

If you are going to assert that I was "judging" ...quote it. Where did I ever say you were going to hell? Where did I ever say I knew your heart? I did not. It's not there.

I never said someone who isn't confirmed is wrong.

The church never approved of selling daughters or altar sacrifices.. Where in the world are you getting your information from? The church has always upheld human dignity.

The church has not evolved into approving immorality. The approach to people who approach marriage while living together may change...but not in condoning sinful behavior. The reason you started this thread may be different than some answers you got, but if I didn't tell you the stuff, a priest could. I explained what the church teaches. It's that simple.

agapecarrie

Princess you are out of line.

I NEVER said anyone was going to hell. DO NOT assert that I say such things.

Every line you have quoted is simply explained by Christian ethos. Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. It's simple new testement Christian understanding of old and new covenant, as well as disciplines and practices.

Morality cannot change. Truth cannot change, otherwise its not truth.

Riss91

princess and Eliz -

agape is telling you the rules and doctrine of the Church. She did not make them up. Simply because you disagree, or wish they were different to suit your purposes does NOT make HER the bad guy.

Princess, you will be banned if you continue to harass the ladies on this board.

agapecarrie

the DEUT reading does not say rape is ok. In fact, it says he violates her. 

To assert such things from these readings really does not lead to fruitful discussion. It's quite ludicrous.

princessbride1981

So let me get this straight, coming on and voicing my opinion is considered harassment, yet when someone else voices their opinion it is not?

The whole reason for this thread has been overlooked.  Instead of helping Eliz, perhaps by giving information about a priest who may be helpful and understanding to her situation, she's being told that it can not happen, and her marriage is NULL AND VOID if not performed in a church.  

God may be forgiving, but some in this thread certainly are not.  

I am sorry if I went off the hook with comments such as "bible beater', and I do apologise for that.  I do not however apologise for trying to HELP the op, and let her know that THERE IS HOPE, and she's not going to be struck by lightening and banished from the church forever, it just DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY anymore.

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-marrying-non-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2adb2e77-c170-4c23-a228-83799e770352Post:a8157179-73a3-4831-88dd-9b6f4e23cfd4">Re: Catholic marrying a non-Catholic</a>:
[QUOTE]So let me get this straight, coming on and voicing my opinion is considered harassment, yet when someone else voices their opinion it is not? The whole reason for this thread has been overlooked.  Instead of helping Eliz, perhaps by giving information about a priest who may be helpful and understanding to her situation, she's being told that it can not happen, and her marriage is NULL AND VOID if not performed in a church.   God may be forgiving, but some in this thread certainly are not.   I am sorry if I went off the hook with comments such as "bible beater', and I do apologise for that.  I do not however apologise for trying to HELP the op, and let her know that THERE IS HOPE, and she's not going to be struck by lightening and banished from the church forever, it just DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY anymore.
Posted by princessbride1981[/QUOTE]

What you are missing here is that those of us that responded to the OP, telling her that her marriage may not be valid in the eyes of the Church are doing so to HELP her.

This is NOT an opinion. When you are on a Catholic board, asking about a Catholic marriage - you MUSt expect to be instructed as to the PROPER CATHOLIC method.

If someone that was going to do something harmful to themselves, but might not realize it, comes to you and asks for advice - you would HAVE to tell them not to do it. Or you would be doing wrong by THEM.

And, whether you agree or not. We DO NOT believe our Church needs to change her rules. You can disagree - no one says you HAVE to be Catholic. But DO NOT come to a Catholic board and insult our faith.

princessbride1981

I am catholic by the way....Not trying to change the church, it does a great job of doing that by itself.  You can go to 10 different churches, and get 10 different answers to the op's question.  
And no, getting married outside the church, as long as proper permission has been granted, does not make the marriage void in the eyes of the church.


If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, ²⁹ he shall pay her father fifty shekels^[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Got it, so if a lonely man wants to get married, he should just save up and rape the first virgin he sees.  

This is what I'm talking about.  We're not dealing with issues like this anymore, it's outdated.  

I am done debating about the hypocritical aspect of the faith, I feel I made my point on that.  

LETS HELP THE OP.  Please post something constuctive.  

She was able to find a church and priest that would marry her, it's a blessing for her to be able to have done this.  

Eliz, did they mention the cost of the church for the ceremony?

Riss91

princess - the passages you are quoting are from the Old Testament. From DAY 1 the Church has taught consistently that these aspects of ancient Jewish Law were abbrogated and superceded by the New Testament. THerefore, the Churches doctrine is not outdated in these cases.

The Church helped to abolish slavery in the Middle Ages and it opposed the reintroduction of slavery. But, people argued then that the Church's teaching AGAINST slavery was outdated for the age of discovery.

Not everything that is NEW in our culture is PROGRESS.

agapecarrie

I already covered the proper permission part for getting married outside the church....its getting a dispensation from form. You aren't arguing against anything I said there. I never said a marriage outside the church with proper dispensation would be invalid.

Regarding the DEUT reading...here is a very simple explanation...

The current law states that someone who commits a crime...let's say, robbing a bank. The proper amount of time in jail is let's say 10 years. (making the number up). So by your logic, because the law assigns a punishment to the crime, then its saying the crime is ok. 

Nope. This is what Im' talking about ludicrous. Your logic does not add up.

The scripture calls rape a violation, plain and simple. Then it assigns a punishment to the violation. This is not saying its ok. 

I have no idea how one could actually logically come to that conclusion. You haven't made any point on "hypocritical" aspect of the faith, because its not there.

princessbride1981

Wether progress or digress, it's still change and needs to be embraced.  The evolution of our society has moved towards the liberal side of things, instead of the highly conservative that most of us over 30 are used to growing up.

Is the change good, yes, no maybe?  Either way, it's change, and sometimes it can be helpful, sometimes it may not.  

In Eliz's case, the movement towards the liberal end is helpful.  Faith is faith no matter how you look at it, however how you choose to interperet it is influenced by how you were brought up, how your priest conveys it to you, and how you personally take it.  

Because much of it is open to interperetation, there is no black and white on certain topics.

About DEUT:

It does assign a punishment to the violator, but also the one who was violated... how's that not hypocritical??????  According to you... we are not going by what the law says here, we're going by Catholic law, correct (where you said the marriage would have been void).  If we were going by our state/federal laws, the marriage would be valid no matter how she got married as long as a license was obtained.  Also, a PUNISHMENT is associated to a crime because it is not accepted as ok, it is accepted as a CRIME, that deserves a punishment.  The punishment is served by the violator of the law, not the victim.

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-marrying-non-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2adb2e77-c170-4c23-a228-83799e770352Post:c75931b4-ef97-4ebb-b3fb-e5b282fdab20">Re: Catholic marrying a non-Catholic</a>:
[QUOTE]Wether progress or digress, it's still change and needs to be embraced.
Posted by princessbride1981[/QUOTE]

No, it really doesn't.

Eliz77

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-marrying-non-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2adb2e77-c170-4c23-a228-83799e770352Post:c97a140f-3f5c-434c-ba06-99984ac26dd1">Re: Catholic marrying a non-Catholic</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Catholic marrying a non-Catholic : What you are missing here is that those of us that responded to the OP, telling her that her marriage may not be valid in the eyes of the Church are doing so to HELP her. This is NOT an opinion. When you are on a Catholic board, asking about a Catholic marriage - you MUSt expect to be instructed as to the PROPER CATHOLIC method. [quote] <div>
Um, I'm confused...why would my marriage NOT be valid and how is being told that helpful? If a priest agrees to marry me, then my marriage is valid as far as the church is concerned. It was never a question if I was or was not going to be married by a priest. The question was HOW I needed to go about accomplishing this since priest #1 was not very helpful or encouraging. Some posters took it upon themselves to let me know that I would not be considered married if I didn't get married by a Catholic priest, yet that was never a question I raised. I realize this is a forum and sometimes tones are taken wrong, but I really did feel attacked and that some advice was not at all what I was asking. <div>
</div><div>[quote]We DO NOT believe our Church needs to change her rules. You can disagree - no one says you HAVE to be Catholic. But DO NOT come to a Catholic board and insult our faith.</div>Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]<div>I think it's normal to have questions. There are things I was told to believe that I'm not so sure I agree with. Isn't that what forums are for, to debate?</div></div>

princessbride1981

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-marrying-non-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2adb2e77-c170-4c23-a228-83799e770352Post:8bd4433a-c248-4bd6-bd70-863e7f350357">Re: Catholic marrying a non-Catholic</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Catholic marrying a non-Catholic : No, it really doesn't.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]  Change will happen wether you like it or not, and it's not in any of our control to stop it.  If we don't adapt and embrace it, we're left behind the times.  

Riss91

1) Yes - IF the priest allows it OF COURSE it's fine. But people informing you that there are other rules to consider, even if you didn't ask is NOT a bad thing! Giving you all the information you might need is HELPFUL!

2) Debating is fine. I encourage and welcome it. I debate would be

Q: "why does the Church believe this?"
A: "well, it's based on yadda yadda"
Q: "can I do x, y, z"
A: "well, you can do x or y, but z is a problem bc of a, b ,c. And by the way, there is also r, s and t"

it is NOT

"the Church is OUTDATED and needs to change - and YOU all are the reason the Church is 'horrible'"

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-marrying-non-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2adb2e77-c170-4c23-a228-83799e770352Post:3c2724a3-eccf-40a3-bb42-591aaf1c66ab">Re: Catholic marrying a non-Catholic</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Catholic marrying a non-Catholic :   Change will happen wether you like it or not, and it's not in any of our control to stop it.  If we don't adapt and embrace it, we're left behind the times.  
Posted by princessbride1981[/QUOTE]

I'm not concerned with being left behind in the times. I'm concerned with the state of my soul and those around me. I really couldn't care less if the rest of society thinks what I believe isn't "cool".

ETA: It IS in our control to stop it. All we have to do is speak up, and set an example.

princessbride1981

No one said it needs to change, it has changed, and continues to change all the time.  I  am stating that with the changing of the church, comes much  more compassion and understanding that lets say 50 years ago.  

A DEBATE is not a question and answer session... it's people voicing their opposing opiions.  

If you're more interested in running this as a Q+A, who do you have that's qualified enough to provide the correct answers to lifechanging questions?

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_catholic-marrying-non-catholic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2adb2e77-c170-4c23-a228-83799e770352Post:d8b5db80-85b0-460d-863e-1f006cac1191">Re: Catholic marrying a non-Catholic</a>:
[QUOTE]No one said it needs to change, it has changed, and continues to change all the time.  I  am stating that with the changing of the church, comes much  more compassion and understanding that lets say 50 years ago.   A DEBATE is not a question and answer session... it's people voicing their opposing opiions.   If you're more interested in running this as a Q+A, who do you have that's qualified enough to provide the correct answers to lifechanging questions?
Posted by princessbride1981[/QUOTE]

seriously - I was just giving an example of polite conversation/discussion.

This thread will be closed, but if you would like to talk about doctrine, feel free start a new thread. As for those qualified - you can always speak to your priest. The ladies on this board have a wealth of knowledge and experience, so it is often helpful to get their input. No one here claims to be the expert on how you should live your life. They just try really hard to understand their faith, live it to the best of their ability, and help others do the same.