Catholic Weddings

Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?

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Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?

  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited September 2012
    I believe that the request to see your confidential therapy records is an invasion of your privacy.  Not that you have a whole lot left after going through a divorce and applying for the annulment, to say the least.

    Your exH refused to have children, something he promised on your wedding day.  That alone is grounds.   Let them go to his shrink to get the dirty laundry.

    I was never asked anything of the sort when I got my annulment and when they had to ask a too personal question, they apologized in advance for prying but it was necessary for them to ask.  It took a little less than 6 months and wasn't an awful experience but it certainly was a learning one!

    btw, I was divorced before my annulment but not for long.  I wasn't really dating anyone that I would be serious about and had a young child and an insane job that took most of my energy.

    I wanted the annulment as a way of wiping a clean slate for myself, if you can understand that.
  • [QUOTE] My savior, Jesus Christ, doesn't slam the door in the face of sinners, he forgives and welcomes with open arms anyone into his kingdom who believes and repents. That's part of the reason why I'm Christian and not Catholic
    Posted by maggieandrey[/QUOTE]

    maggie, you already stated that you didn't mean to come across as disrespectful, which I appreciate - but I have to point out that Catholics are Christians (at the very least, I presume you do know this because of the devout men and women who are in your FI's life.)

    And Catholics <em>certainly </em>believe that our Redeemer "welcomes with open arms anyone into His kingdom who believes and repents" - indeed, we profess that at our Mass!  So that cannot be the reason you choose to be a Protestant and not a Catholic.  (I'm not asking for an explanation of your choice of denomination, by the way - just had to clarify that important point.)  :-)

    Anyhow . . .

    I read this thread yesterday, and so I prayed for you and your FI at our vigil Mass last night.  I hope with all my heart that the annullment comes through before your date, and that your wedding day is beautiful and joyful!  God bless you.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:da05262e-9d76-41af-bc1f-71a9dc06c5e8">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]Carrie, I think a little pastoral compassion would be appropriate here.  Maggie & her FI talked to their priest and he (mistakenly) said that an annulment wouldn't be necessary.  Maggie, hang in there - prayers for God's peace during this time of stress.
    Posted by TXKristan[/QUOTE]

    <div> Yes indeed. Its' unfortunate. Exactly where I have not been "pastoraly compassionate"? I've explained very thoroughly why the church teaches what she does, Presuming, out of charity, that the problems of the whole situation were not understood. </div><div>
    </div><div>That doesn't change the nature of what she is admitting to willingly entering into an adulterous relationship in December. It is NOT "pastorally compassionate" to encourage, or in any way "ok" this. Putting the language on the behavior (NOT the person, NOT condemning the soul, but the behavior) in such accurate language conveys the seriousness of the decision being made. THIS is "pastorally compassionate". This is fear for the souls involved. </div><div>
    </div><div>
    </div><div>
    </div>
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited September 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:069dcbf2-c5de-4664-b95a-33e61861c343">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? :  Yes indeed. Its' unfortunate. Exactly where I have not been "pastorally compassionate"? I've explained very thoroughly why the church teaches what she does, Presuming, out of charity, that the problems of the whole situation were not understood.  That doesn't change the nature of what she is admitting to willingly entering into an adulterous relationship in December. It is NOT "pastorally compassionate" to encourage, or in any way "ok" this. Putting the language on the behavior (NOT the person, NOT condemning the soul, but the behavior) in such accurate language conveys the seriousness of the decision being made. THIS is "pastorally compassionate". This is fear for the souls involved. 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    No Carrie, you have NOT been "pastorally compassionate" or compassionate in any way, shape or form since since you started posting on this board. You have been a totally superior know it all and heaven forbid anyone has a different opinion. I can't count the number of knotties who have come from this board complaining of negative feedback, particularly from you.

    The mods can ban me but I doubt they can get it enforced before I have a morning conference at the Knot offices and a follow up meeting (with copies of posts) with my pastor.  Perhaps you know of him, he transferred here with Dolan.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:ca1ae5ee-d087-4151-a4f7-8f7e8a404d99">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : No Carrie, you have NOT been "pastorally compassionate" or compassionate in any since since you started posting on this board. You have been a totally superior know it all and heaven forbid anyone has a different opinion. I can't count the number of knotties who have come from this board complaining of negative feedback, particularly from you. The mods can ban me but I doubt they can get it enforced before I have a morning conference at the Knot offices and a follow up meeting (with copies of posts) with my pastor.  Perhaps you know of him, he transferred here with Dolan.
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

    <div>As I said before, pastorally compassionate does not mean encouraging or in any way "oking" sin.</div><div>
    </div><div>Quoting church teaching is not "know it all" it is simply knowledgable about church teaching, and able to back it up.</div><div>
    </div><div>Sometimes, when people don't hear things they want to hear, they say they have "negative feedback". That's not necessarily a bad thing. </div><div>
    </div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:ca1ae5ee-d087-4151-a4f7-8f7e8a404d99">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : No Carrie, you have NOT been "pastorally compassionate" or compassionate in any since since you started posting on this board. You have been a totally superior know it all and heaven forbid anyone has a different opinion. I can't count the number of knotties who have come from this board complaining of negative feedback, particularly from you. The mods can ban me but I doubt they can get it enforced before I have a morning conference at the Knot offices and a follow up meeting (with copies of posts) with my pastor.  Perhaps you know of him, he transferred here with Dolan.
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]



    Save for mica because I know you wanted to say it first
  • I'd really appreciate it if we could keep the personal attacks out of threads where girls are just asking for advice (and off the board in general).

    And I'd definitely appreciate not being threatened kthx.  This is the Internet.  It's serious.
    Anniversary

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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:f9770ef7-7a6f-4de9-b08f-72eb3de993cd">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]I'd really appreciate it if we could keep the personal attacks out of threads where girls are just asking for advice (and off the board in general). And I'd definitely  appreciate not being threatened kthx.  This is the Internet.  It's serious.
    Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]

    Agreed
  • Wow.

    OP, good luck.  My cousin is a Catholic who is still going through the annulment process; her husband left her and their kids over three years ago and now that the divorce is finalized, she's trying to go through all the steps.  It's really hard, but it'll be worth it in the end.

    And to everyone who thinks that the OP never should have started dating her FI, I don't know how realistic your word view is.  Most non-Catholics would never THINK of going to the Catholic Church and petitioning for an annulment.  How would they even know that they were allowed?  The Catholic Church doesn't exactly advertize their annulment services to Catholics or anyone else.  Who would get an annulment just so that they could go on a single date with a Catholic "in case" it turned into something more?

    In any case, it was unhelpful to the OP to tell her she and her FUTURE HUSBAND should never have gotten together in the first place.  I'm not saying that false information should be given or that we should say that it's all right to do things that aren't all right, but stating something like that is not going to make her want to listen to the rest of our answers.  It would make me really sad if we alienated someone who came for help--especially since she said that she "feels very judged."
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited September 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:4c66e73b-362d-40b1-9c67-1516b5cf3564">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : Carrie, I personally am offended by the tone in which you point out that Maggie's FI shouldn't have even dated her in the first place. She is in this situation and is doing her best. As a non-Catholic, it must be hard to go through all this (especially when the well-intended priest gave inaccurate guidance). Nobody is advocating that they proceed with the wedding in December without an annulment. I'm just not a fan of "get married in our church or go to hell." (Which is what I read into your statements. Please correct me if I am mistaken)
    Posted by TXKristan[/QUOTE]

    <div>Yes, you are quite mistaken.</div><div>
    </div><div>For several times, the reason I brought up what "ought" to have happened was not for shaming. It was because of the rationalization the OP was using in order to continue with their plans, and placing blame where it did not belong. It was encouragement to trust the church and the steps they should be taking, because, if it is spelled out, it is NOT the church's fault they are in this situation.</div><div>
    </div><div>NO ONE SAID ANYONE IS GOING TO HELL. I am so tired of that "judgemental" card being thrown around it has no business in this discussion, and to imply anyone said it is awful. I'm offended anyone implies I stated this. There was no tone in my op where I pointed this out. </div><div>
    </div><div>The government has laws that people have to follow in order to get married. Catholics have rules they have to follow in order to be considered married. Non-Catholics are NOT bound by these rules, but Catholics are, in regard to form.</div><div>
    </div><div>However, all people are bound by natural law---which includes marriage lasting for life, and a civil government has no right to undo a marriage. What the OP is planning on doing, "marrying" outside the church, is a proclaiming a public state of adultery.  Adultery is a serious in.  </div><div>
    </div><div>
    </div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:81c2ee0d-0a93-4d7f-b977-29d1253ee06c">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : Carrie, when I read statements that imply that the state of a person's soul is in danger, I see that as an implication that someone is in danger of eternity of hell.
    Posted by TXKristan[/QUOTE]

    Which is a warning of a possibility, is it not? 

    <div>And yet that is not the same thing as saying someone is going to hell. This is a judgement on their accountability with God, how much they understand and know the consequences of their actions, etc. No one has made any such comment here. </div><div>
    </div><div>The original comment on<strong> behavior</strong> being dangerous, sinful, and puts their souls at risk. This is vital information to know. To any way sugar coat adulterous behavior as being anything than what it is is serious itself.</div><div>
    </div><div>
    </div>
  • maggieandreymaggieandrey member
    100 Comments First Anniversary
    edited September 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:a3c53730-b130-49aa-a447-d2c5cd9f3419">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : Yes, you are quite mistaken. For several times, the reason I brought up what "ought" to have happened was not for shaming. It was because of the rationalization the OP was using in order to continue with their plans, and placing blame where it did not belong. It was encouragement to trust the church and the steps they should be taking, because, if it is spelled out, it is NOT the church's fault they are in this situation. NO ONE SAID ANYONE IS GOING TO HELL. I am so tired of that "judgemental" card being thrown around it has no business in this discussion, and to imply anyone said it is awful. I'm offended anyone implies I stated this. There was no tone in my op where I pointed this out.  The government has laws that people have to follow in order to get married. Catholics have rules they have to follow in order to be considered married. Non-Catholics are NOT bound by these rules, but Catholics are, in regard to form. However, all people are bound by natural law---which includes marriage lasting for life, and a civil government has no right to undo a marriage. What the OP is planning on doing, "marrying" outside the church, is a proclaiming a public state of adultery.  Adultery is a serious in.  
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    So I guess the solution if my annulment doesn't go through is to convert my FI to a form of christianity closer to my own. That way, he is no longer bound by the Catholic Church's rules, and we can get married at a different church. Then our souls are no longer at risk.

    Clarification: I'm not planning on that. The Church is FAR to important to him and his family. It's a hypothetical question.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:e2cd8eca-c194-4f7f-9e54-224055f209f6">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : So I guess the solution if my annulment doesn't go through is to convert my FI to a form of christianity closer to my own. That way, he is no longer bound by the Catholic Church's rules, and we can get married at a different church. Then our souls are no longer at risk. Clarification: I'm not planning on that. The Church is FAR to important to him and his family. It's a hypothetical question.
    Posted by maggieandrey[/QUOTE]

    <div>Actually, it doesn't work this way, for several reasons.</div><div>
    </div><div>First, I was speaking about FORM only when speaking about following catholic rules. The second part of what I said is that everyone has to obey natural law, which includes one marriage until death. I don't understand what "branch of Christianity" doesn't believe that marriage is for life. Jesus was pretty clear about it. </div><div>
    </div><div>Once a Catholic, always a catholic. Catholics cannot "convert" or formally defect from the faith to not be bound by canonical form. </div>
  • maggieandreymaggieandrey member
    100 Comments First Anniversary
    edited September 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:c0198d50-2d9a-47d0-8d19-cee8734ded28">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : Actually, it doesn't work this way, for several reasons. First, I was speaking about FORM only when speaking about following catholic rules. The second part of what I said is that everyone has to obey natural law, which includes one marriage until death. I don't understand what "branch of Christianity" doesn't believe that marriage is for life. Jesus was pretty clear about it.  Once a Catholic, always a catholic. Catholics cannot "convert" or formally defect from the faith to not be bound by canonical form. 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    I was actually pretty clear about the fact that one marriage was for life, too. Even my ex-H agreed on that, and he's an athiest. But the thing is - and this is why I made the comment that everyone took the wrong way - I feel that Jesus forgives me. Whatever mistakes I've made are between me and Him. And there ARE branches of Christianity which recognize that.

    Whether or not the catholic church annuls it or not, I don't have anything on my conscience or soul regarding the failure of my marriage because I did everything I could. In my heart, I feel that Jesus would much prefer me in a marriage where He plays an important part. Not to mention one where I am loved, respected, and open to children (I'm not saying that's all marriage takes - just a few things that were missing from my first marriage.)
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:b0d2b5f7-35c6-4acd-81d4-0a09aa1a49ce">Re:Annulment process am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]Maggie, have you discussed your circumstances with the priest / deacon preparing you for marriage? What guidance did you get there?
    Posted by TXKristan[/QUOTE]

    you'll have to be more specific as to what guidance you're curious about since this discussion spiralled into a completely different one from my initial question :)

    The only thing they told me in regards to the request I was struggling with on Friday in my OP was that the priest wouldn't have asked for it if he didn't need it to make a decision.
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  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited September 2012
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:0e708e15-5570-45b9-b190-e31820c290b8">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : As I said before, pastorally compassionate does not mean encouraging or in any way "oking" sin. Quoting church teaching is not "know it all" it is simply knowledgable about church teaching, and able to back it up. Sometimes, when people don't hear things they want to hear, they say they have "negative feedback". That's not necessarily a bad thing. 
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    Riss actually told me that she has had to ask you several times to tone down your posts.  Yep, even she agrees that you come across as non compassionate.

    The way you have been piling crap on OP does sound know it all (and you don't) and uncooperative.  Ant THAT alone is a bad thing.

    Maggie,  I would strongly suggest that you find a Franciscan or Jesuit church and schedule an appointment with a priest there. 

    1) There is less of a chance of language misinterpretations

    2) These priests are the most intelligent and educated in the Catholic Church

    Please don't let an internet message board turn you away!  Someone said that the internet is serious. But in most cases, it really isn't. And it certainly isn't worth upsetting you or your relationship with your FI and your religious beliefs!

    Please PM me if you want any further info.  And best of luck to you!  You deserve better than arguing on the interne
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:e930c363-912c-4c0d-a45e-ac9c0c484dae">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative? : I was actually pretty clear about the fact that one marriage was for life, too. Even my ex-H agreed on that, and he's an athiest. But the thing is - and this is why I made the comment that everyone took the wrong way - I feel that Jesus forgives me. Whatever mistakes I've made are between me and Him. And there ARE branches of Christianity which recognize that. Whether or not the catholic church annuls it or not, I don't have anything on my conscience or soul regarding the failure of my marriage because I did everything I could. In my heart, I feel that Jesus would much prefer me in a marriage where He plays an important part. Not to mention one where I am loved, respected, and open to children (I'm not saying that's all marriage takes - just a few things that were missing from my first marriage.)
    Posted by maggieandrey[/QUOTE]

    <div>What do you need forgiveness for? I don't think you are defining forgiveness accurately.</div><div>
    </div><div>Forgiveness is needed when we do something to offend someone. Forgiveness is NOT releasing someone from vows they made. These are two completely separate things. The failure of your first marriage, as you say, was his doing. That does not mean you need forgiveness for that. The marriage doesn't just "end" because we regret the decision to enter into it. For better or for worse means even during his worse. (To be clear, this is NOT in any way suggesting you stay even legally married. It just means you cannot marry someone else, because you're still married). </div><div>
    </div><div>I think its a pretty serious claim to "know" that Jesus would want you with someone else besides the person you vowed to. Especially when the scriptural stories state something completely opposite that. </div><div>
    </div><div>Also, to be clear, from what you say, many aspects of your first marriage sound like it would be invalid. But the church cannot just "take someone's word for it" because they say its so. </div><div>
    </div>
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-process-am-i-being-uncooperative?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:32794217-0e2a-4aa1-9be2-2ce2df6f12e2Post:82da8713-3f94-434a-a53d-9b38ba807e23">Re: Annulment process - am I being uncooperative?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The way you have been piling crap on OP does sound know it all (and you don't) and uncooperative.  Ant THAT alone is a bad thing.
    Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>No. I have not been "piling on crap". I've been stating church and Christ's teaching about marriage, and explaining thoroughly why the church holds to what she does. THIS is the loving thing to do, to be concerned with someone's spiritual welfare. </div><div>
    </div><div>Again, quoting church teaching is not "know it all".  </div><div>
    </div><div>And there is nothing to "cooperate" with. 

    </div>
  • I would tell them no to the mental health information. I don't know why you have to get an annulment when the catholic church would not recognize a JP marriage and your not catholic?  My brother was told it would need a (short form for lack of better term) he was not a practicing catholic when he married his wife out of the church.  He wanted kids, she was not only cheating but on birth control. She up and left one night and did not come back.   Have you paid the church for your annulment?  Sorry a donation.
  • FYI, the "Internet is serious" comment was intended as sarcasm.

    Ladies, I don't feel like this thread is going in a direction that is helpful to the OP, so I'm closing it.

    OP, I hope you continue to post here.  You've received some good advice in this thread. 
    Anniversary

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