Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer

monkeysip

Agreed with Agape.

God isn't human, so he is not sexed or gendered like humans are.  However, if we reject the terms that God uses for himself (and yes, the Bible does use gendered language), then we are essentially saying that ALL of the terms God uses for himself are subject to change.  We can rewrite the Scriptures anyway we want.

We would have no right to call God ANYTHING if it weren't for the fact that he gave us things to call him.  We are restricted to the names and pronouns that he gives us.  

Calling God "He" or "Father" doesn't mean that we're calling God a man.  The alternative is to use "it"... which not only takes away God's existence as a person, but is calling God something we have no authority to call him.

Back to the Creed issue... "men" has always been a placeholder for "humanity."  To attribute the use of the word "men" to nothing but patriarchy is to deny the Holy Spirit's role within liturgical formulas and doctrinal creeds.

lalaith50

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but it is uneducated people who take offense at the use of "man" or "men" when it refers to "all of humankind." 

Feel free to argue, but go read a dictionary first.

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:8234317b-a599-475e-bf47-cc36c9f7ea3a">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]Sorry to beat a dead horse, but it is uneducated people who take offense at the use of "man" or "men" when it refers to "all of humankind."  Feel free to argue, but go read a dictionary first.
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

thumbs up

doctabroccoli

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:8234317b-a599-475e-bf47-cc36c9f7ea3a">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]Sorry to beat a dead horse, but it is uneducated people who take offense at the use of "man" or "men" when it refers to "all of humankind."  Feel free to argue, but go read a dictionary first.
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

Excuse me?  A lot of vocabulary in this world is open to interpretation, and I don't think you calling me uneducated is called for at all.  I have a bachelors degree, a masters degree, and I'm two months away from my Ph.D.  THAT insult is completely uncalled for.

As for those of you who take the bible word for word - the entire bible is already an interpretation.  I never said that I didn't believe in God the Father, because I do.  But using God instead of the male pronoun reflects the fact that God is everything and is in all things.  And we as humans have NO RIGHT to judge other people for their opinions.  I cannot change your view on Catholicism, and you cannot change mine.  So really the insults are not necessary and certainly don't make you a better Catholic than me. 

There is such a thing as healthy debate, but the reason I don't post much on this board is because it often turns into unhealthy debate however "religious" the people on here claim to be.

Riss91

I'm confused - do you disagree that the term "man" or "men" in some cases is used to reference all of human kind?

Everything is up for interpretation, as you stated. The pp was stating that the use of the word "man" or "men" can be interpreted as a reference to men, women and children. It's an acceptable term. So, the point is that if you are refuting that it can be used in that sense, then you should research it further (i.e. further educate yourself) on the term.

I do not think the point was that you aren't educated AT ALL, be perhaps just when it comes to the definition of that term and its acceptable usages throughout history.

doctabroccoli

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:6f5b4835-68d6-46b0-aef9-3de67a065d9f">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm confused - do you disagree that the term "man" or "men" in some cases is used to reference all of human kind? Everything is up for interpretation, as you stated. The pp was stating that the use of the word "man" or "men" can be interpreted as a reference to men, women and children. It's an acceptable term. So, the point is that if you are refuting that it can be used in that sense, then you should research it further (i.e. further educate yourself) on the term. I do not think the point was that you aren't educated AT ALL, be perhaps just when it comes to the definition of that term and its acceptable usages throughout history.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

Acceptable usage throughout history and modern usage are two different things.  I understand that the word "men" was used to imply humankind in the past; however, I feel that use is outdated since women are much more equal to men in our current society than in centuries past.

My other argument relating to the previous page was about not referring to God as "he or him or his" but rather just as "God" as God is in all things.

morganbyrne

agapecarrie-

I know where you're coming from with your post, and I completely agree that when churches take it upon themselves to "gussy up" the mass it drives me up a wall.  I can't wait for the new translation to set us all back on track and I wish churches who were in non-compliance would be brought back to the faith. But I think you left out a little bit and it can bring readers to a conclusion I don't necessarily agree with.

The beginning truths are these:

1. God is neither male nor female.  That's doctrine
2. God is three persons, and the love between them is manifested through the marriage covenant and the subsequent martial union
3. Jesus taught us to call God "Our Father"

Here is how I would distill them:

1 and 3 are not in contrast with each other, but rather deal with different aspects of God.  As mysterious as 2 is, all aspects of God are mysterious.  What we know is that we have been given the privledge of calling God "Father." He asked us too.  I would say it would take some serious audacity to change what we call Him, but it doesn't have to refer to gender as much as the kind of relationship we have with Him.  This is best seen through 2.

From the catechism, humanity mirrors the trinity through the life-giving union of man and woman.  I would say that it isn't a stretch to then extrapolate that into saying that humanity is closest to God when male and female are joined together in perfect love.

I hate calling God "She" or "Mother" because it's directly contrary to what Jesus asked us to do and Church Tradition, not because I ascribe to God a gender.

And finally, while men and women may have different relationships with God, that's more likely due to the fall than anything else!  God can certainly transcend our puny differences.

-to doctabroccoli

I wouldn't say that it is uneducated to wish for gender-neutral or "updated" language in the slightest!  I would probably say that it is a mark of your education - I'm getting my MA and find it so very hard to stay grounded in my faith in the current educational environment. I would say that it is "misguided" and does reflect a current cultural movement and so very rarely are cultural movements led by Truth and faith.  I think Catholics are often called to be counter-cultural, and it's always time to worry when your stance on the faith puts you in the majority!

lalaith50

(The original question actually had to do with removing "men" from the Creed, which seems to me a slightly different discussion than whether "God" should be aligned with a male pronoun.)

So who determines if "modern usage" changes the definition of a word, if not a dictionary? 

I'm not claiming to be a better Catholic than anyone, but at least I know not to take offense at a possibly exclusive word when every single common, accepted, modern dictionary gives an inclusive definition of that word!

I am a member of the race of men. I hate to break it to you, but so are you! :-)

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:206868e3-0e5e-475c-9d55-8c18bd2a8f72">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]agapecarrie- r. And finally, while men and women may have different relationships with God, that's more likely due to the fall than anything else!  God can certainly transcend our puny differences.
Posted by morganbyrne[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you said, except this. If you read Theology of the body, you can see this explained way better, but I'll give it a shot.

 We are not generic souls trapped in a body. We are created man and woman, our bodies make visible that invisible reality.

Before the fall, we were still created male and female. These are not puny differences, but complementary and purposeful and very good. Before the fall, men and women still had a unique relationship with God, as a man or woman. This is not a bad thing. God made "man" in his image, and the initiator of the gift, and woman as the receiver. This in itself shows a different aspect of how one would be in relationship with a father.

agapecarrie

Does anybody remember in learning grammar the "masculine preferred" when using pronouns? I think that was the official grammar rule that has been changed...but I'm not sure.

The masculine preferred rule was When writing the sentence about a generic someone whose gender you don't know, the correct pronoun for "them" would be "he" rather than "them"

EX:   "Each person should pick up his own stuff"

I thought I heard that the official rule changed to:

EX: "Each person should pick up his or her own stuff"

While English is a living language, the Mass in Latin uses the term "man" in much more of a symbolic way than simply the "masculine preferred"... but referring to all of humanity, adopted children of God. Calling us  "For us MEN and for our salvation" is actually raising our dignity to the quality of the dignity of humanity... body and soul...as to be distinguished from all other creation, not only animals but angels as well.

morganbyrne

I am sorry, I gave the wrong impression!  When I was referring to the puny differences, it was in the way that the fall has alienated us and altered our relationship with God not the differences in gender! By questioning your original statement that men and women approach God differently, I was attempting to simply strip away the part of that which comes from our fall.  Before the fall we would still have approached Him with differences because we are complimentary and not identical, but they would not be the "differences" that we think of in modern terms.

Sorry!  I phrased that completely wrong!

GulfCoaster

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:0a1b5585-5f55-4c77-a591-8cdc42de99da">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer : Acceptable usage throughout history and modern usage are two different things.  I understand that the word "men" was used to imply humankind in the past; however, I feel that use is outdated since women are much more equal to men in our current society than in centuries past. My other argument relating to the previous page was about not referring to God as "he or him or his" but rather just as "God" as God is in all things.
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

Hm, if you're a grad student in NE Ohio, I'm going to take a guess that you're at Youngstown State, because I know that the YSU Newman Center used to have the same policy about not using "him" or "his."  There might be other university parishes that do this, but I sure hope the practice isn't too widespread. 

I attended Mass at YSU once and the language was incredibly distracting.  All theological arguments aside (I will leave those to others who can make them more competently), it is an awkward use of the English language to make statements like "May the Lord accept this sacrifice at your hands for the praise and glory of <em>God's</em> name, for our good, and the good of all <em>God's</em> Church."  Normal English language usage calls for pronouns in the italicized spots, and the lack of pronouns is incredibly distracting to this editor and linguist.

doctabroccoli

I am not at Youngstown State, nor do I live in Youngstown.  I also do not attend a Newman center; I belong to a local Parish.

Everything in this world must and does evolve.  We as humans have evolved, businesses must evolve, and religion must evolve.  The Catholic Church is at a crossroads right now.  It is losing people right and left not because they don't believe in God, but because it's increasingly difficult for modern people to identify with old interpretations of ancient doctrine.  These same people feel shunned by those members of the Church who refuse to believe anything but what is written word for word in the laws of the Church and judge others for not agreeing with their beliefs. 

I am a Catholic and you all are Catholics.  None of us is better than the other because of how we practice our faith.  A large part of being a Catholic is treating all things with dignity and respect, and I hope that some of you can keep that in mind when participating in discussions on this board.  There is a lot of hostility here towards people who are viewed as not confining to every single piece of Church doctrine, and that is certainly not what I expected when I first started occasionally lurking here.  It's actually very disappointing for me as a lifelong practicing Catholic.

AwayWeGo08

We say us not men, doesn't bother me one way or the other.

Jasmine&Rajah

doctabroccoli, I truly believe that no one here intends to come across as hostile. ( If only we were all sitting together over coffee, having real conversations in "real time.")   :-)

This issue comes up quite frequently on this board.  Myself, I certainly am one of those people who "confines to every piece of Church doctrine" and follows the interpretations of the Magisterium.  I choose to do so, because I believe that is what choosing to be Catholic means.  Sharing this opinion doesn't equal passing judgement.

There are certain aspects of our faith, and of Church teachings, that will never change (thank God.)  After all, Christ reassured us that His Word would never pass away and that the very gates of Hell would not prevail against His Church.

On topic . . . I dislike the presumption that I, as a woman, would feel excluded by the term "men."  I understand perfectly well that it covers all humanity.  Consider the beautiful Scripture verse, “Glory to God in the highest and, on earth, peace to men of good will.”  We know, absolutely, that the angel was speaking about all of the Lord's children. 

On a lighter note, I was mildly surprised when I opened a missal recently, and saw a song title rewritten as, "Jesu, Joy Of Our Desiring."  I sang the original words - "man's desiring" - as loudly as possible.  My husband tried valiantly not to snicker.

God bless you all.

agapecarrie

Jesus promised the Holy SPirit would prevent the church from teaching error. I believe him.

Truth cannot change. Truth cannot evolve. 2+2=4, always has and always will. God is truth, and won't change because truth can't change

By the way, people are converting left and right to come into the church. Jesus allowed people to leave over teaching they couldn't accept. The church will not compromise truth and stop guarding the sacraments because people disagree with it.

My belief in the church in NO WAY "shuns" people, nor judges people.

THe thing is, some people would like to make the church like a cafeteria- where you can pick and choose what you want to believe in. But if you actually study it, look into why the church teaches the way she does, you'll see everything is interconnected, and you can't have one without the other, because it doesn't make sense.

"I'd be a vegeterian if only I can eat meat". It doesn't work...because, by its very definition, being Catholic means believing in catholicism. While it has ritulas, its not merely cultural practices.

lalaith50

"The Catholic Church is at a crossroads right now.  It is losing people right and left not because they don't believe in God, but because it's increasingly difficult for modern people to identify with old interpretations of ancient doctrine."

hm...the only time I've seen people leaving the church left and right is in already wishy-washy churches (the kind that won't preach things like absolute truth/morality.)

The traditionalist-leaning churches that I regularly attend are *packed* with young people, and loads of families and little kids!

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:26f5b368-d799-4a8f-a687-94aee3aa3843">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]"The Catholic Church is at a crossroads right now.  It is losing people right and left not because they don't believe in God, but because it's increasingly difficult for modern people to identify with old interpretations of ancient doctrine." hm...the only time I've seen people leaving the church left and right is in already wishy-washy churches (the kind that won't preach things like absolute truth/morality.) The traditionalist-leaning churches that I regularly attend are *packed* with young people, and loads of families and little kids!
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]


Absolutely! Our seminary is over crowded and is expanding right now. There are several religious communities...the orthodox ones that wear habits, that are overcrowded as well. In Nigeria, there is a waiting list of 4000 to get into the seminary.

doctabroccoli

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:00829334-8cba-4caa-abda-62539453e7da">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer : Absolutely! Our seminary is over crowded and is expanding right now. There are several religious communities...the orthodox ones that wear habits, that are overcrowded as well. In Nigeria, there is a waiting list of 4000 to get into the seminary.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I'm going to use the St. Louis Archdiocese as an example since I was born and raised in St. Louis, and my parents are still there.  It is ignorant to not acknowledge how many people and parishes as a whole felt alienated by former Archbishop Burke.  You had to have been buried under a rock to not see the strife he caused within the Archdiocese.  I can tell you 100% that Catholics like me DO feel "judged" by Catholics like you.  We respect your conservative views yet you continue to try to force your views on us more progressive Catholics.  It is weakening the Church.  This article is a good read regarding our differences:  <a href="http://www.we-are-church.org/forum/forum6engl.htm">http://www.we-are-church.org/forum/forum6engl.htm</a>.  Now, geographically moving closer to my current home and regarding the Church shedding members, Northeast Ohio saw the closing of a large fraction of our Parishes within the past couple of years, much like Boston saw (with the same Bishop) in the years before <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/03/in_ohio_echoes.html">http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/03/in_ohio_echoes.html</a>.

There is trouble in the Church, and you refusing to acknowledge the fact that this strife exists only drives the wedge deeper.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:4ee0d0c1-7bc8-4aee-9a4b-6f12ca821277">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer : I'm going to use the St. Louis Archdiocese as an example since I was born and raised in St. Louis, and my parents are still there.  It is ignorant to not acknowledge how many people and parishes as a whole felt alienated by former Archbishop Burke.  You had to have been buried under a rock to not see the strife he caused within the Archdiocese.  I can tell you 100% that Catholics like me DO feel "judged" by Catholics like you.  We respect your conservative views yet you continue to try to force your views on us more progressive Catholics.  It is weakening the Church.  This article is a good read regarding our differences:  <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.we-are-church.org/forum/forum6engl.htm">http://www.we-are-church.org/forum/forum6engl.htm</a> .  Now, geographically moving closer to my current home and regarding the Church shedding members, Northeast Ohio saw the closing of a large fraction of our Parishes within the past couple of years, much like Boston saw (with the same Bishop) in the years before <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/03/in_ohio_echoes.html">http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/03/in_ohio_echoes.html</a> . There is trouble in the Church, and you refusing to acknowledge the fact that this strife exists only drives the wedge deeper.
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

Actually, I was talking about the St. Louis Archdiocese-- the one with the expanding seminary and religious communities.  and Archsbishop Burke was dead on in what he had to do. He stood up for the truth.There are no parishes "as a whole" that felt alienated. And if people felt alienated, then they should actually know what happened, not trusted liberal media to tell them the story. I know the whole story because I work for the church, and know what actually happened, not how the media reported it.  He is a catholic bishop keeping the Catholic church the catholic church. The recent rite of election at the cathedral with all those converting this year, .well, they had to have 3 of them in order to fit everybody in... in the cathedral basilica. This cathedral seats 2500. St. Louis is doing just fine.

The fact that you feel judged is on you. I have never ever made a comment about the state of your soul. Ever. I simply state what the church teaches. And truth can't change. It doesn't evolve, otherwise its not truth.

The division does not exist between "liberal" catholics and "conservative" catholics. (except for the discipline issues which there is freedom to have preferences and evolve) There is only one catholic (doctrine wise--- you know the creed that says One, holy, catholic, and apostolic-- thats what that means...believing that the church is in succession of the apostles and the teaching is true)  and those that dissent. I use to think I knew more than 2000 years of unchanged truth guided by the Holy Spirit prevented from being in error. Than I actually read up on it, and learned why the church teaches what she does, and all of it made sense. I dare you to read up on theology of the body and not at least be challenged in some way...it completely challenged me, and I already agreed with the basics of it. It is so beautiful and life giving and freeing to understand it.

ootmother2

geez, I left this post three days ago and you're still blabbering.

Perhaps you could find another post to argue on because I don't want to be know as the one who took the drugs away from Agapecarrie.

lalaith50

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:d933763c-6f91-47a6-a86d-e546dd2f6b1c">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]geez, I left this post three days ago and you're still blabbering. Perhaps you could find another post to argue on because I don't want to be know as the one who took the drugs away from Agapecarrie.
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>not sure what that means (drugs?) or even if you're trying to be funny...

<div>btw, I love how when people say something like "I'm outta here" in a thread they always come back...hehehe...</div><div>
</div><div>Actually, this is quite interesting because now that I re-read it, the actual original question wasn't explicitly "do you say 'men' in your church?" it was </div><div>"<span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;" class="Apple-style-span">Can priests just make a little change for the good without telling anyone. or do they get instructions from the higher ups?"</span></div><div>
</div><div>interestingly, this discussion has become a perfect example of that actual question...the difference between people who think that it's ok to think/do/change anything that they want to fit their own religious beliefs (like priests who change the words and/or tell their congregation to do the same,) and people who are Catholic because they believe what the Catholic Church teaches. (Not sure if people realize it, but there is a whole bunch of other churches out there that were started by people who didn't agree with the Catholic Church, and in fact most of them would be considered "more welcoming" because of it...but I don't think that's necessarily a good thing!)</div></div><div>A wise priest that I know who has a pretty good vantage point of different things in the church says that in the (relatively near?) future, the Church will be smaller but stronger. </div><div>I do believe that lots of people will leave the church, but also that those who are more committed to it and obviously agree with the teachings of the Church will remain, and it will therefore become stronger. </div><div>Feel free to call me judgemental for believing that it will be stronger as a result of that, but I'm not sure how an organization can be stable at all if people within it dissent from it's core teachings. </div><div>The Church is NOT going to change it's teaching on unchageable truths (eg, the wrongfullness of birth control--sorry to bring that into this discussion, but it is a perfect example of something that people think the Church needs to change to "get with the times,") which relates to this discussion as people bringing up the appropriateness of changing our grammer to "get with the times," so, no, that's why priests are not permitted to make "just a little change for the good." </div>

GulfCoaster

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:6b51099b-41b2-4728-97f9-653bc62721fd">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]I am not at Youngstown State, nor do I live in Youngstown.  I also do not attend a Newman center; I belong to a local Parish. Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

OK.  Well, YSU does that too. 

Anyway, you didn't address my question on grammar.  I am not talking about any of the theology here, just grammar.  "May the Lord accept this sacrifice at your hands, for the praise and glory of <em>God's</em> name and the good of all <em>God's</em> church."  Can you explain why the use of God's in the italicized locations is preferable to using a pronoun, which normal English usage would call for?  I'm honestly curious.  To me, it's improper grammar that becomes incredibly distracting, similar to a sentence like "Joe went to the store to buy milk for Joe's son and food for Joe's cat."

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:d933763c-6f91-47a6-a86d-e546dd2f6b1c">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]geez, I left this post three days ago and you're still blabbering. Perhaps you could find another post to argue on because I don't want to be know as the one who took the drugs away from Agapecarrie.
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

oot - come on, that kind of comment is really not necessary. it's upsetting to me that you can't refrain from making snide comments towards agape. whether you agree with her or not, showing her disrespect only makes you look bad and diminishes your credibility.

lots of posts go off on tangents. it's not that big of a deal.

doctabroccoli

Gulf coaster -
Sorry, I thought my reasoning for the non-use of pronouns was evident in previous posts.  God is used in place of a pronoun so as to not idenfity God as male or female.  It has nothing to do with grammar and everything to do with theology.

Agape -
I probably should've made it more clear that I used St. Louis as an example since your location says St. Louis.  I, unfortunately, have firsthand knowledge of what Burke did to three parishes in the Archdiocese.  The parish that I grew up in as well as the parish that my parents attended after we moved when I was in high school were completely torn apart by, in one case a former student of Burke's, and the other case a priestly companion of his.  My parents and many of their friends (as well as others) felt completely tossed aside by these two priests, and many of them have left those Parishes because of that.  As for the third parish - this was the parish I attended in high school as I was one of their piano accompanists.  This was the parish that felt shunned by Burke as a whole.

And for the record, I believe every single thing the Nicene and Apostles Creeds say.  Our differences lie in the interpretation of other Church doctrine.  Yes, there is still only one Roman Catholic Church, but we are headed away from that becaue of several extremely conservative forces in power. 

Calypso1977

my priest gave an excellent sermon on this awhile back.  he said it best when he stated that the church is not a democracy.  it does not change its rules or laws basd on what the majority wants.  this is why the church will never "get with the times" as folks like to always say, or change its teachings on the basic truths to be more "modern" and in line with what  "most people want".

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:8fd48e24-8014-4879-b17b-9fc16c2045ce">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]  Yes, there is still only one Roman Catholic Church, but we are headed away from that becaue of several extremely conservative forces in power. 
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]


This doesn't make sense. First, the church is wrong for not changing with the times, and now, because it doesn't change, its the one heading away from the one catholic church?

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church stays the same in doctrine, it has never conflicted teachings, because truth cannot change.   If we believe in Christ's words, we believe that the Church cannot teach error (Matthew 16).

doctabroccoli

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_question-change-very-common-catholic-prayer?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:37f2834a-b66d-40f0-9858-3c95b8366350Post:e4dfb069-0724-4e48-82fc-64ff9964c1d5">Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Question about a change in a very common Catholic Prayer : This doesn't make sense. First, the church is wrong for not changing with the times, and now, because it doesn't change, its the one heading away from the one catholic church? The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church stays the same in doctrine, it has never conflicted teachings, because truth cannot change.   If we believe in Christ's words, we believe that the Church cannot teach error (Matthew 16).
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I am not arguing for the change in basic beliefs (i.e. what's stated in the Creed) but rather the interpretation of wording and other Church doctrine.  Look at what I wrote in response to Riss in a callout thread she just started.  And I never said that Church leadership was for sure "wrong", I'm just trying to get you to acknolwedge the fact that it's not all puppies and rainbows (excuse the cliche knot terminology) within the body of the Church right now, and you seem to be closed off to that fact.

Jasmine&Rajah

agapecarrie said:

Jesus allowed people to leave over teaching they couldn't accept. The church will not compromise truth and stop guarding the sacraments because people disagree with it.

YES, exactly! 

This is most evident in John 6, when many disciples left Christ after hearing Him explain, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.  Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them."

I'm going "up" to the other thread titled "docta" that Riss91 started, where this conversation is ongoing . . .

kgrunow

I had no idea that some churches said " for us men and for our salvation" every church I have ever been to says "for us and for our salvation". I would be really confused if I ever heard the word men in the Creed.