Catholic Weddings

convalidation questions

Hey everyone. :) 

Recently FI talked to his priest about getting his annulment and got the go ahead to get married civilly (as long as we both understand we can't receive communion and as long as his annulment paperwork is turned in before the civil ceremony) and still get to be married in the church after his annulment has gone through (I assume it would be a convalidation ceremony).

I was trying to explain a convalidation to my grandmother who is a very strict Catholic raised in Germany. When she got married it was required to be married civilly first then have a church wedding afterwards. She doesn't fully understand the convalidation and how some parishes do not allow it when couples choose to have a civil ceremony out of convienence and have a church ceremony later and be denied. She is requesting me to find paperwork or some sort of evidence proving why a couple would be denied marriage in the church. Does anyone know or have links that would show that? Another question she had was how can it be different from one parish to the other? 

Also has anyone heard of a convalidation when only one member of the couple wants to have the marriage recognized by the church? My brother married outside of the church and explained to me this weekend about having a convalidation ceremony without his wife being there or needing to be a part of it. 

Thanks :)

Re: convalidation questions

  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    Well, there isn't anything written because your priest gave you really bad advice. Annulments are never guaranteed. (Unless we are talking about lack of form). A priest should never tell you to get married civilly in USA---(I'm using strong language here because what he did should be reported to the Bishop...its that serious).  What happens if the first marriage is declared valid? Remember the church cannot make a valid marriage null, it can only investigate the circumstances to see if it was invalid in the first place. He is still presumed to be a married man.

    I guess I don't understand why one would want to remove themselves from receiving communion...the infinate graces and divine life of Christ.

    In other countries, the religious do not have the legal authority to marry people so the civil ceremony has to be done separately. This is not considered the real spiritual marriage, but simply for legal purposes. The catholic ceremony is supposed to be very soon after, and I don't think its called a convalidation in this instance.

    For the 2nd question, its a process called radical sanation. This is not the first route to be taken, but if there is an unwilling spouse, and no other impediments exist, the marriage can be "sanated" (state that its valid from the original date of the civil marriage). This is an overly simplistic basic explanation.
  • monkeysipmonkeysip member
    2500 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    Hi Sanine,

    Is there a reason for the rush?  I'm just wondering why it's important to hurry and do a civil ceremony?  Is FI in the military, are you moving, or something like that?  

    Ok, so I'm not sure I understand Grandma's concern.  Are you saying that she doesn't think that a couple would ever be denied marriage in the church?  Fill us in with more details, and I think we can better find what you're looking for.

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  • lalaith50lalaith50 member
    1000 Comments Third Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    ("non-consumato" is also pretty easy to get...but not very many people go for that one... ) 
    ;-)
    Anniversary
  • edited December 2011
    My parents did this. My mom was married to a man in an episcopal church and started divorce proceedings 4 months after the wedding. My parents met, fell in love and wanted to get married. My moms parish preist told them to have a civil ceremony and they could get "married" in the church when the annulment went through. They got married in May in the side yard of my moms house then had their church ceremony in November of that year. I think the priest told my parents to do it that was because it was farley certain that my moms first marriage would be deemed not valid. Be careful with your plans. Its not guaranteed that his Annulment will be accepted. If getting married in the church is important to you, I would wait.
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  • edited December 2011
    The reason why I don't want to wait another year to year and a half is because of the distance we have. We live 1600 miles apart and I am planning on moving out there anyway in October to be together. I have the option to either just live with him or to marry him legally and live with him that way. I do not feel safe moving to him and getting a place of my own nor do I believe for the sake of his son it is appropriate to just live together. At least his son would know we are married legally. 

    As far as removing myself from communion, I've done that on my own in the past. I'm very big on confession and unfortunately there have been times where I have skipped church while on vacation or I felt like it had been too long since my last confession (about 6 months or longer) that I felt like I was not worthy to receive communion. Because of my past jobs I've had, I wasn't always able to make it to confession as often as I would have liked and have gone about 10 months before without receiving communion because of that.  

    The priest did give us the go ahead based on his experiences with the annulments he's had in his parish and on based on what FI wrote in his annulment survey. Pretty much his ex was unfaithful in the marriage and kept him from attending church because she stopped believing and had many issues with the Church. 

    My Grandmother cannot believe why someone would be denied the blessing of having a marriage in the church even if the couple was married before civilly. I'm assuming for her that comes from her own experience and growing up where the Church service wasn't seen as legal. I found out however, that she did get married JOP in the U.S. and a year later was able to get married in the Church in a very small ceremony of her, my grandpa, and his two siblings. 

    Thanks Agape for answering my second question :)
  • afortunada818afortunada818 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011

    Hello,
    I guess it really depends on your parish. I got married in 2005, just a civil wedding. We wanted to have our catholic ceremony in our country, but for safety reasons we have now decided to have our ceremony here. when I contacted our former parish, they did not allow us to have a wedding, they wanted us to do just a convalidation and this had to be done in english since they do not have a hispanic officiant. I had so many questions, and many different answers. I googled my case so much, only to find discouragement. I found out many people were judgemental about the fact that we got married by the law 5yrs ago and our upcoming ceremony is not a real wedding. Finally I found this beautiful Church, and the parish and cordinators are super sweet. We went to a convalidation class... where they enouraged us to have a wedding. We were given 3 options, one was to have a convalidation ceremony, that takes no longer than 30 min. and it can be done only with the Priest, us and maybe our parents. another option was to have a massive wedding, which is a wedding ceremony with many other couples that are in our same situation, afterwards they have a little reception with cake and refreshments at the Church's cafeteria. And the last option (the one we chose) and they strongly encouraged us to do was to have a wedding. A one hour mass, with a white dress, veil... everything!   The convalidation class lasted a whole day, then we took the Pre-marital classes, we went to those classes for a month. It has been a wonderful process. Our wedding is in April, and we are very excited.
    It is going to be a wedding and not a convalidation of marriage! 
    ;)

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  • Calypso1977Calypso1977 member
    Knottie Warrior 2500 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    The reason why I don't want to wait another year to year and a half is because of the distance we have. We live 1600 miles apart and I am planning on moving out there anyway in October to be together. I have the option to either just live with him or to marry him legally and live with him that way. I do not feel safe moving to him and getting a place of my own nor do I believe for the sake of his son it is appropriate to just live together. At least his son would know we are married legally. 

    is he raising his son in the catholic church?  because if he is, what you are doing is not really setting a good example for the son.

    why do you not feel safe living on your own?  i personally would wait until i'm fully free to marry in the church before uprooting my life and moving 1600 miles to be with someone.  what if the annulment doesnt go through?  are you going to stay with this person, live in sin (according to teh church) and remove yourself from communion for eternity?  also, if you dont plan to stay with this person if things dont work out, that will have a huge impact on his son as well.  this kid has already seen his parents divorce, are you prepared to possibly put him through another divorce-type situation?  i would really think long and hard about this before you make any big decisions. 
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_convalidation-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:412db37b-20c7-4f7a-a802-bc8f1f05d5efPost:0864b3dd-e60e-4c15-a086-d1a63023d22a">Re: convalidation questions</a>:
    [QUOTE] is he raising his son in the catholic church?  because if he is, what you are doing is not really setting a good example for the son. why do you not feel safe living on your own?  i personally would wait until i'm fully free to marry in the church before uprooting my life and moving 1600 miles to be with someone.  what if the annulment doesnt go through?  are you going to stay with this person, live in sin (according to teh church) and remove yourself from communion for eternity?  also, if you dont plan to stay with this person if things dont work out, that will have a huge impact on his son as well.  this kid has already seen his parents divorce, are you prepared to possibly put him through another divorce-type situation?  i would really think long and hard about this before you make any big decisions. 
    Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

    <div>I'd be moving to Detroit. I don't see it as a safe place to live by myself. I'll admit it. I'm too trusting and I know that can get me taken advantage of, hurt or worse killed which I don't want to risk living on my own and trusting the wrong person in the apartment. I'd rather live with him right away. What I'd be teaching his son by marrying right way and not waiting and just living together, is that living together before marriage is wrong, something his own mother isn't teaching him. He is being brought up Catholic, and I know being married JOP isn't valid in the Church's eyes, and I'd definitely encourage his son to get married in the church when he is ready. I do not believe marriage is disposable. It's meant to last and I'll do everything I can to make mine last. I don't think I mentioned anything about leaving him or having any doubts about marrying him. We've spent enough time together both in person and over the phone talking to know we aren't rushing into things. </div><div>
    </div><div>Anyway, my original question hasn't been answered yet. Does anyone know or have a link as to why a convalidation may be denied? I'd prefer having a link or a reference to doctrine rather than just an answer that the Church just doesn't. </div><div>
    </div><div>Thanks very much :) </div>
  • Riss91Riss91 member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited December 2011
    Here are direct links to the Canon law on Convalidation:

    Simple Convalidation
    Radical Sanation

    This is like reading legal jargon, though, so you will likely need someone within the Church to clarify for you based on your specific situation.

    The basic idea is that in the eyes of the Catholic Church, a couple (with at least one Catholic party) who has married outside of the Church, has entered into an invalid marriage. To remedy the situation, the couple must present itself as a couple to the parish priest and demonstrate that it entered into the non-canonical marriage without malice or deception. Both individuals must show that they are penitent of their misunderstanding and misdeed and that they desire the bond that “by its very nature is perpetual and exclusive” and through which they are “strengthened and, as it were, consecrated for the duties and dignity of their state by a special sacrament” (Canon # 1134).

    If the priest believes the intention of the couple, he then has the right and ability to dispense the “canonical form” and validate the marriage, bringing it into proper validity and liceity (being licit) with the Roman Catholic Church.

    So, you can be denied the convalidation if the priest feels that the civil ceremony marriage was entered into with malice or deception. In countries where civil  ceremonies must be performed separately from religious ceremonies, there is no issue as to the intent of your civil ceremony. In countries where a religious ceremony is considered a legal (civil) ceremony, the acceptable reasons for forgoing the religious ceremony in the first place are slim.

    Some priests may not feel comfortable with a couple that knowingly enters into a marriage while one spouse is still considered married in the eyes of the Church. Convalidations were intended for people who unknowlingly had an "invalid" marriage. For instance, if they thought their priest had all of his faculties, but he didn't, so their ceremony was invalid. They are also meant for those who might come into the faith after marriage.

    I hope that helped! Good luck!
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_convalidation-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:412db37b-20c7-4f7a-a802-bc8f1f05d5efPost:c9e7f8a9-86ed-4572-bc37-ba6648ea00bb">Re: convalidation questions</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: convalidation questions :

     What I'd be teaching his son by marrying right way and not waiting and just living together, is that living together before marriage is wrong, something his own mother isn't teaching him. He is being brought up Catholic, and I know being married JOP isn't valid in the Church's eyes, and I'd definitely encourage his son to get married in the church when he is ready.
    Posted by Sanine[/QUOTE]

    You contradict yourself here. First you say you'd be teaching to marry right away and not living together, then you say it isn't valid in the church's eyes.

    Remember, a civil marriage for a catholic is NOT a marrigae.
  • edited December 2011
    Thank you very much Riss. 

    I am not contradicting myself. Legally I'd be married. Paperwork would show that I am married. I also know that the Church sees a JOP marriage the same as just living together. The difference to me is the legality of it. I do plan on doing what's required to get my marriage recognized after the annulment goes through. If it doesn't, which I do understand there is a chance it may not be determined invalid, it's my sin and I shall have the burden to bear it the rest of my life. I understand that and FI understands it. 

    Anyway thanks to those that have answered my questions and put in their experiences with convalidations. I did not come here to pick or start a fight and appreciate all the feedback I got. 
    Thanks
  • Calypso1977Calypso1977 member
    Knottie Warrior 2500 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011

    well, good luck.  you are planning to do what you want to do regardless, and it sounds like youd stay civilly married forever if the annulment doesnt go thru.  as long as you understand the implications and are ok with it, then that is that.

    teh biggest thing to remember is that an annulment is not a catholic divorce.  divorce and annulment are two very, very different things.  that is why an annulment is not guaranteed the way a civil divorce is.  anyone can get divorced.  not everyone can get an annulment.

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