Marriage Prep (vent, but words of wisdom also needed)

bibliophile2010

Ladies, I need some advice. So far, I have found the Marriage Prep process with my fiance to be difficult. It sort of feels like pulling teeth, or coaxing a reluctant child to do something that you know will be good in the end. I, on the other hand, have been nothing but excited for each step, so far.

He wasn't eager to go to our initial pre-marital meeting, but it ended up going just fine (we aren't having sex, nor are we living together or facing any other obvious hurdles to marriage or things that seem to concern couples before the initial meeting). He expressed less-than-enthusiasm about the FOCCUS, but we had a great talk about it both before and after we took it, and have continued to explore those conversations (and poke a little fun at it too).

Tonight, he got frustrated because our next step (weekend retreat) conflicts with something else he would like to do. I sent him an email outlining our options (he was driving home) and I haven't talked to him about it yet, but I did express to him that I don't want the rest of the process to continue with me being excited and him acting like it is a burden.

I'm having a hard time understanding why he is so hesitant with all of this stuff. He's so adamantly, firmly Catholic. One of the things I love best about him is that, not only is he a faithful and devoted Catholic, but he encourages me to deepen and strengthen my faith as well. When I talk to him about it, his response is usually something like "I want to marry you, and do Marriage Prep and live our Catholic faith."  I don't know if he's just frustrated by the process, or if he's frustrated with the scheduling or if he's just overwhelmed by his schedule right now (any or all of these could be the case).  I'm certainly going to continue to discuss it with him. I just needed to get the frustration off my chest.

I know some of you ladies have said that your FIs or DHs were reluctant to go to Engaged Encounters and other Marriage Prep classes. Do any of you, in particular, have any advice for things I can tell FI to encourage him about the classes? I love  that kind of stuff (and have heard so many great things from all of you), so it's easy for me to be excited. I just want to find words to make him feel more neutral, if not good, about it.

mica178

From what I recall, there's always one member of the couple that is less excited to attend the EE.  It takes up an entire weekend, and most of us are used to having the weekends for ourselves.  However, I have yet to meet the couple who did not find the experience very worthwhile and even enjoyable.  My FI is not a morning person.  This is a person who tried to get out of our meetings with the priest because it was "too early" (all of our meetings have started at 10 or 11am).  He loved EE!  I worried that he would sleep through the morning programs, but both mornings, he was up with everyone else and ready and happy to participate (and he's usually a grumpy!).

I think the toughest thing is getting your FI to attend.  Once he's there, I think he'll like it.  It's very non-confrontational, non-judgmental, very nuturing to young love. 

There are two ways for your to describe EE to your FI: the carrot or the stick.  The carrot: EE is the beginning of the exploration of your relationship, something that needs to develop for a healthy lifelong marriage, and it it important to you (both you the individual and you the collective) that he attend.  The stick: if you two do not do EE, your priest has the right to refuse to marry you.

I hope your FI responds to the carrot.

Calypso1977

H and i are both lifelong Catholics.  we married later in life than most (in our 30's) and we attend church regularly.  we knew what we were getting into.  fortunately for us, our pre-cana was very faith based and was just 3 meetings with the priest, plus the initial meeting.

i would have been annoyed as well to waste time on somethign like the FOCCUS.  even my priest though the FOCCUS was a waste and we didnt do it.  it was obvious we'd already had the big discussions on marriage, family, how to manage finances, etc.  i couldnt imagine taking it seriously, i think we would have approached it with "lets just hurry up and do it". 

i also would not have wanted to sit through a weekend wtih lay persons telling me about marriage, i personally believe that is a priests place to instruct me about teh sacrament.   a friend of mine did a weekend where there were divorced people and people with kids out of wedlock teaching the class.  she said it was fun and social, but i'm not sure she learned much about the sacrament or her faith. 

i feel the same way about catechism.  there are many CCD teachers that in my opinion really shouldnt be teaching catechism becuase tehy dont fully know or understand it themselves.  my sisters church also made her sit through a baptism class every time one of her kids was born and needed baptism (she has 4)  and they go to Mass every sunday, her two oldest serve, and i'm pretty sure she understands what baptism is and how to raise a child in the faith.    but the church made her do it, and again, it was all lay persons.  as a godparent, i had to attend, and the stuff tehy were teaching was stuff i learned when i was getting first communion.  IMO, it was definitely geared toward parents who hadnt set foot in a church since their wedding day, and i'm sure many of them wont be seen again until 1st communion.

so, if your FI is of similar thinking, i can see why he may be frustrated or off-put by the process.  if this is the reason why he's put off, see if you two can meet with the priest adn discuss an alternate marriage prep. 

in sum, i dont think there is "one size fits all" pre-cana, nor do i think that there is a magic age for first commuion and confirmation.  i am greatly bothered by parishes who will not administer these two sacraments until a kid is a certain age.  if they know and understand the material, why make them wait?  I received first communion at 5, and i believe i was confirmed at age 11 or 12.  around here, it seems to be 7 or 8 for first communion and anywhere from 14-16 for confirmation

[Deleted User]

I can see where your FI is coming from. Both H and I are Catholic (I went through RCIA a few years ago, so I am still learning the faith, etc). I was actually the one that wasn't thrilled with going on the EE weekend, sleeping in the same room with someone I didn't know, etc. Plus, I am the type of person who doesn't like to be told how to work through and figure things out in a marriage bc not one way works for all couples. But it actually wasn't that bad and I got a lot out of it.

I would just encourage him to have an open heart and mind - that is what my now H kept reminding me to please do as I was so reluctant to go, even though it was required to get married in the Church. I got a lot out of it and both of the couples that we had were awesome. They had a lot of practical tips and advice for marriage. It will go by fast and be over before your FI realizes it.

catarntina

The only way I could get FI into it was telling him we couldn't get married if we didn't go.  And I think I had to bribe him with dinner afterwards.

In his defense, they did schedule our marriage prep classes (we did not do the EE weekend option) on every Sunday in February.  So, we missed the Superbowl, missed Valentine's Day, and we missed a President's Day BBQ.  That just made it that much worse for FI.  They devoted two of the four classes to discussions on interfaith marriages which were completely irrelevant as we are both Catholic, and always knew we'd raise our children Catholic.

It was very frustrating for us to sit there for 4 hours on a Sunday, after already going to Mass.  I believe we went in with open hearts and open minds, but they really squashed it after the second class.

We had already met with the Deacon twice before even starting the classes.  And not once, in any of the 7 meetings I had for marriage prep, did they discuss the *sacrament*.  Just interfaith marriages, children, and managing finances, and our FOCCUS review.

The FOCCUS review was a complete waste because all of the issues that they had flagged for discussion, we talked about 4 years ago before we even started dating (issues with his past he was concerned with).

I can understand why your FI is frustrated.

If you think about it this way... after it's all said and done, you will be stronger as a couple. I mean, my FI wanted to still marry me after I forced him to miss the Superbowl   It will encourage you to talk about things even if you both didn't agree with what the teachers were saying. "Oh, I thought that was so stupid" or "Oh, I really agreed with that"  We had a lot of discussions like that afterwards.

Theresa626

I don't know anyone that I met through marriage prep or online that was excited about the weekend retreat.  Most people view it as a burden to have to give up a weekend of your time to discuss things that you've already discussed with your fiance.  A lot of people feel that the church is trying to "parent" them too much.  I don't think your fiance's feelings are out of the ordinary even for someone who is a devout Catholic.  My husband and I go to church every single week and we both were not looking forward to any step of the premarital counseling.  That said, we ended up enjoying all of it but enjoying one thing didn't mean we were looking forward to the next.  We both really dreaded the retreat because it was time out of our schedule and waking up way too early and sleeping in uncomfortable beds.  If he ends up enjoying these things after he does them, then that's what matters.  You can't expect him to love everything you love so maybe just ask him to keep the complaining to a minimum and not worry so much about his feelings beforehand.  

Theresa626

   a friend of mine did a weekend where there were divorced people and people with kids out of wedlock teaching the class. 

Calypso, I find this so bizarre.  Did they literally have practically no volunteers to do the weekend?  All the couples on our weekend were people that I really admired because they talked about serious problems they had encountered in their marriage and how they got through them and were married for a long time.  I would've been doubtful of a marriage prep course from divorced people.  

mica178

I will admit that one of FI's and my issues with EE was that half of the leaders were divorced and that one couple talked about receiving IVF.  Um, we were at Catholic marriage prep, shouldn't our leaders be practicing?  That being said, the couples were all in happy and healthy marriages (yes, the three divorced people had had their previous marriages nullified properly before re-marriage). 

I guess the point of EE is to focus on marriage rather than the Sacrament.  I don't think that's necessarily wrong (I think people with strong religious beliefs can be just as prone to poor communication skills as any other person), but I could see why it would be frustrating to many.

Calypso1977

Mica, that is my point exactly!  IVF is completely against church teaching.  what a couple does is on their own soul and is their own business, but they should NOT be discussing it at a marriage prep course and giving the impression that it is an accepted practice.  as for the divorced couples, yes, perhaps their prior marriages were annuled, but again, what impression does this give to others?  that its easy to get annulmetns and marry as often as you like?  there is already a wide misconception that "annulment" is the same as a "divorce" and its not.

practicing catholics like us understand these concepts, but again, there is a great number of folks attending these classes that dont practice their faith at all and for them to be receiving misinformation is only doing them a disservice.

im pretty radical, though, in that i also dont think Catholic schools should have non-catholics as teachers.  but, in this day and age, there simply arent enough nuns to go around to teach like there used to be.

mica178

I know, Calypso.  I doubt most of the people at my EE knew the Catholic church's stance on IVF, and I really wished that couple had not shared that with us because it is sort of an endorsement.  As for the annulled people, well, one person mentioned that when he went through the process, he was borderline suicidal because it was so tough.  The other couple (where both were divorced) didn't discuss their experience.  I'm glad that one individual shared how tough it is to end a marriage since so many in the EE were so young, I wondered about how easily they fell into engagement.

I remember attending one Catholic school where there were a bunch of monks who taught the humanities but most of the math/science teachers were non-Catholic .  We prayed before each class, and I remember on the first week of class, I led (we took turns and could choose any prayer -- formal or informal -- we wanted) with "Hail Mary."  The geometry teacher had never heard that one.  Imagine that!   I did feel that the presence of those 5 monks and the Catholic administration did give a "Catholic feel" to the school, but I'm not sure how the secular teachers changed the experience.  But what can be done?  There are so few people choosing to become nuns and priests in the US.

Calypso1977

i think there are many folks out there that genuinely want to be good Catholics, but just arent getting the info they need.  its a shame.

even if they cant find nuns or other clergy to teach, they shoudl at least have practicing catholics teaching.  can you imagine what would happen if a young girl got pregnant and approached a non-catholic teacher for advice?  i shudder to think she may be steered towards abortion withouth her parents knowledge.  but even being a catholic might not guarantee being pro-life (example, Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, and the movement "Catholics for Choice").

OP, sorry we went off on a tangent!!!!

catarntina

im pretty radical, though, in that i also dont think Catholic schools should have non-catholics as teachers.  but, in this day and age, there simply arent enough nuns to go around to teach like there used to be.

I know, completely off-topic...but I had a methodist teacher at my catholic school in the 4th grade.  They didn't allow her to teach us religion lessons.  The sister who taught 3rd grade swapped and taught us religion while the 4th grade teacher taught the 3rd graders history.

Now back to the topic... At our marriage prep, we had a divorced couple and people who got annulments also.  I really struggled with some of their stories.  For instance, they were saying birth control is bad, use your natural fertility from God. Ok, fine, I know that.  But then she was saying that she wanted 6 children, and already had 4, but kept having miscarriages when trying to conceive the other 2. So she would get shots of progesterone to prevent a miscarriage.  I really had a hard time trying to understand the difference.  It seems almost like IVF to me... maybe not as extreme?

Our priest asked us at one of our meetings, "What if you find out you can't have children?"  FI and I responded, "We would look into adoption."  It seems like getting shots of progesterone is just like taking BCP to prevent pregnancy or getting IVF.  I just really really struggled with it.  So it kind of took my confidence out of the marriage prep experience.

mica178

I asked my FI's uncle about the Catholics for Choice group, and he said that it was probably populated by a bunch of baptized but not practicing Catholics who use the title for oomph.  But I am of the opinion that Nancy Pelosi and most of the Catholic Democrats in the US government should stop describing themselves as Catholic to get the Hispanic vote if they publicly proclaim to be okay with abortion.

I know that IVF and artificial insemination are no nos, but I think the Pope Paul VI center does progesterone support to help maintain pregnancy. 

Calypso1977

its my understanding that IVF is forbidden because it allows for the destruction of embryos and "selective abortion" (when, say, 6 eggs successfully implant, and the couple only wants 2 or 3 babies).  i havent done much research on progesterone shots, although at face value i cant see how it would be wrong to help sustain a pregancy that has already occurred naturally...

mica, i agree on the politicians.   they disgust me.

mica178

I think the issue with IVF and artificial insemination is that the conception takes place outside of the woman's body and that to obtain the semen, men usually have to ... well, pleasure themselves rather than have intercourse (although apparently the Pope Paul VI clinic has found a way around this).

(The destruction of embryos and selective abortion obviously are also bad, but they are not the inherent reason why the Catholic church does not support many infertility treatments.)

agapecarrie

Just like contraception is wrong...sex without babies. So is IVF...babies without sex.

This shows how much Christ and the Church values the sexual embrace and the purpose and its power. Every child has a right to being conceived by a loving marital embrace.

The church is ok with infertile couples aiding and fixing and healing their bodies to conceive (increasing egg production=aiding what should be happening already). But tearing apart sex from making humans either way is the degrading of the meaning of the human person. (I'm not saying a child conceived by IVF is less than human, of course not).

bibliophile2010

First off, thank you all for your words of support. I really, really do appreciate it, and really needed a perspective kick in the rear about this. Of course not everyone is excited to give up a bunch of Saturdays (and another special mass FI wanted to go to) to do the huge pile of Marriage Prep that the Phoenix Diocese demands! Even though I'm excited to do it, the thought of eight more weekend Marriage Prep meetings (before we even consider things like liturgy planning) seems to be a lot. I get it. Like I say, I just needed some outside perspective.

Regarding all of the great side conversations, I will say that our diocese (in addition to extensive Marriage Prep requirements!) requires that all teachers in diocesan schools (there are a couple of schools run by the orders in the area) require that teachers be practicing Catholics, whether they are lay persons or not.

I also agree that Marriage Prep/EE should really have leaders who are living lives according to Chruch teaching. I can see one couple that has experienced divorice and nullification, but several? That seems like a lot. And certainly there should not be IVF users.

Also, I understand why IFV and artificial insemination are not ok, but I don't see why fertility enhancers (like progesterone treatments) shouldn't be within church teaching.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_marriage-prep-vent-but-words-of-wisdom-also-needed?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:4f8cfa44-9c74-47b3-af16-f5cdfa643463Post:ec46913b-4543-40be-98cb-7b5243539787">Re: Marriage Prep (vent, but words of wisdom also needed)</a>:
[QUOTE]F Also, I understand why IFV and artificial insemination are not ok, but I don't see why fertility enhancers (like progesterone treatments) shouldn't be within church teaching.
Posted by bibliophile2010[/QUOTE]


They are fine. As I already said, anything that helps heal, treat, or make the body work like its supposed to is ok with the church.

Bec20

Progesterone isn't a fertility drug.  It's a hormone that a woman's body will produce a certain level of to maintain the pregnancy.  If the level is too low, she will miscarry.   The Church supports it because it helps give the fetus a shot at life.

Tuneful_Bride

My DH felt somewhat ambivalent about the prep work, too. When he announced that he had scheduled a rehearsal and recording session over our EE retreat, I told him he would have to reschedule. He was really just overwhelmed with scheduling and tired of the wedding stuff, and he said he sort of just wanted to wake up and be married. 

I reminded him that it was a prerequisite. We couldn't get a refund on the weekend by that point, and, even if the money wasn't an issue, there were no other encounter weekends or any other way to finish our marriage prep before December. I said it wasn't an ultimatum, just a fact of life, that if we didn't do the retreat that weekend, we couldn't get married on our wedding day. We would have to wait at least another 3 months or more.

Encourage your fiance to think about the retreat as a weekend away from wedding planning. We had a little dinner date before we went to the retreat center, and from the moment that date started, we said NOTHING about the wedding, and all the talk was just relaxed. We used the drive to really gear up for the weekend, and then we had a wonderful experience.

The best encouragement my husband can suggest is to point out how much better he will feel afterwards. Everyone I've talked to has had wonderful experiences with the EE retreats. Remind him that going to confession and going to mass is sometimes a little inconvenient, but you always feel so much better afterward: more in touch with Christ, spiritually fed and rested, and better able to serve. The EE weekend will do those sort of things, too. It's important, and he will enjoy it on the other side.