Can someone tell me if this is true..

Karinabobina

I was born and raised catholic. I went through my communion and confirmation. I have basically grown up and formed my own opinions on the Catholic church. While I believe in all the morals and fundamentals of leading a Catholic life, I'm very upset with the Catholic church because of first hand experiences. My FI is not Catholic and we have opted to have our ceremony outside, in a park that we both love. Therefore, we're not having a Catholic mass.We are having a former Catholic priest who decided he wanted a family and resigned as a preist, hold our ceremony. He is still going to be leading the ceremony in the catholic tradition, minus the Eucharist. I understand that our marriage will not be recognized by the catholic church, and I've accepted this, but my grandma, who is very upset, has told me something I have never heard of. She told me since I am not having my wedding in a Catholic church that I am no longer considered a true Catholic and will not longer be able to receive communion. I'm not sure if this is her anger at me, or if this is true? Anyone know? While I love my grandma dearly and try to make her happy, this was one thing my FI decided together that would make the two of us happy.

lmatiox85

Karinabobina,

I'm certainly not an expert, but I've only heard of your grandmother's comment occuring when a person gets married (in a religious ceremony), legally divorced (no annulment), and then remarried. In that situation, according to the Church, you are still married to your former spouse and cannot participate in the Sacraments.  When you refer to the former Catholic priest, is he now Episcopalian possibly? Even though your FI is not Catholic, was he baptized in another religion?
 
Although the Catholic church won't perform ceremonies outside, they understand that sometimes the non-Catholic participant would prefer to have the ceremony at his/her church (i.e. Protestant, Baptist, etc). Since your FI is not Catholic, you have to ask for dispensation to marry a non-Catholic, whether or not you want your ceremony to take place in a Catholic church. Then, you can ask for a second dispensation for the wedding to take place outside of a Catholic ceremony. I had an uncle that went through all of the Catholic marriage prep but then got permission to get married in a non-denominational Bible church because that's what his FI wanted. Other denominations are less strict about ceremonies taking place outside, so that might be a possible solution that would make your family happy (though it would probably be more work for you and your FI). 

Check out some online resources and Catholic answer forums for more info... maybe the former priest that is performing your ceremony would know what your grandmother is specifically referring to?

http://www.catholic.com/

Sorry if that's too long, but I hope it helps somewhat... hang in there!

agapecarrie

Catholics are bound to marry by Catholic canon law form. In order to have a valid sacrament, you must have valid form and matter. (Unless receiving a dispensation from form, but one must go through the church for this)

Since you are choosing to walk away from the church in this, the Church won't be considered you to be validly married, therefore any relations is fornication, a serious sin. So there are 2 serious sins involved. One cannot receiving communion in the state of sin.

banana468

Ditto agapecarrie.

You're opting not to marry in the Catholic Church so they'll consider you to be a "fallen down" Catholic as a result.

My understanding is that as a result of opting to marry outside the Church, you should not receive any Sacraments or serve as a sponsor to someone receiving Sacraments.  That does mean that you wouldn't be able to receive Communion or serve as a Godmother or sponsor for Confirmation.

Talk to your local Priest about this.  You two may be able to have a small Convalidation ceremony, however until that time, your marriage would  not be recognized by the Catholic Church.

Theresa626

I don't know what she means by true Catholic but she is partially correct.  When you are living in a "state of sin", you aren't supposed to go get communion.  Since you'll be having sex with your husband without being married to him under the Catholic church, it's considered a state of sin.  That being said, I'm pretty sure that 70% of the people who receive communion at church are living in some sort of state of sin.  You're supposed to go to confession regularly too to receive communion but I don't know very many people who do that.  So, I think you'll need to decide how seriously you take that comment.  Technically, you shouldn't be receiving communion but just decide if that rule is something you plan on following because the only one you'll answer to is God.  

Calypso1977

ditto agape and banana.

i assume that you are aware that you could still have a catholic ceremony and receive yoru sacrament even though your FI is not Catholic?  some priests wont celebrate mass if you arent both Catholic, but you can still have the ceremony and sacrament.  just wanted to make sure you were aware.

as a PP mentioned, you could have a convalidation later - if granted.  you will have to show good reason/extenuating circumstances as to why you were not married in teh church to begin with.  you should also think about your future children - do you plan to baptize and raise them cathoilc?  if so, its a challenging thing to do if you turn your back on the church now.

is your FI a member of another faith?  have you discussed possibly converting in light of your issues with the church (although not knowing what they are, converting may be an extreme).

Karinabobina

Thanks for all your posts. That's really helped. I've thought about having our marriage convalidated by the church to make my grandma happy, but I'm not sure that's something I really want to do for myself. I guess I have a lot of thinking and soul searching to do. I really want to raise my children to be good people and have a good set of morals, but this whole process has been really tough. I've found a lot of judgement coming from the church that I had never noticed before and it's hard to deal with. But at least I know my grandma wasn't saying it out of spite.

mica178

It's great that you're thinking about this stuff now.  If you aren't into having the marriage convalidated, then you shouldn't do it just for your grandmother.  You can raise your children to have good morals without being Catholic.  Being Catholic is more than just being a good person, it's believing in the Catholic doctrine. 

Being Catholic isn't for everyone, and if your FI isn't interested in having your children raised as Catholics, you shouldn't pursue a marriage in the church or a convalidation.  This is a decision the two of you need to make, not your grandmother.

That being said, there are different Catholic parishes that have different philosophies.  Some are more open-minded and liberal.  If you love the religion, you might do some church shopping to see if there's one that fits you and your FI.

Karinabobina

I might do that, thank you.

fam6

I am a Catholic that believes my relationship with Christ and the Church is personal.  I do believe that your grandmother is right.  And that based on a strict interpretation you are not to take communion.  I however, believe that receiving communion is a personal ritual between you and Christ.  Therefore, I believe that if you feel that you are receiving communion with right intention and rememberance of Christ then, you can take communion.  Trust me that I have never seen a priest turn someone away if they choose to receive communion. 

In a strict tradition, you can not receive communion unless you have very recently gone to confession.  If we polled all participants at mass, I guarantee they have not all been to a recent confession.  So, again, if you feel right with Christ and you are participating in the Eucharist for the right reasons, then I don't see any problem with it.

apaadzzzz

When I was going through my Caticism courses I had this exact discussion with my priest. I was attending Catholic University at the time and went through the process there.  I asked about this situation, as well as taking communion if you hadn't been to confession. He explained that while all churches and priests are different, some much more strict than others, overall if you are welcome to communion as long as you are bringing good intentions to the mass.  He said simply skipping confession or marrying outside the church doesn't make you NOT Catholic, and he would actually encourage those people to come to mass and take communion to strengthen their faith.  He also said the only time he thinks someone should not participate in communion is if they are not Catholic or if they have committed a mortal sin like murder and have not repented.

agapecarrie

The church considers marrying outside the church a mortal sin.

iamapixie

yeah, agree with PP....if you get married outside of the church, in the eyes of the Catholic church, it's not a marriage so you are technically "living in sin." you can always get marriage blessed by the church after getting married outside if that's something you'd like to do.

GulfCoaster

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-someone-tell-this-true?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:597f78c7-7188-43ed-ab17-f10d9049e763Post:1154a9c5-fb2b-4cfd-bdb2-3b87d28b6626">Re: Can someone tell me if this is true..</a>:
[QUOTE]The church considers marrying outside the church a mortal sin.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Ditto...  Since you're not considered to be sacramentally married if you don't marry in the Church, any sexual relations you have with your civil-law-but-not-sacramental spouse are considered fornication, which is a mortal sin.

And just because there are a lot of people in church every Sunday who are probably in a state of mortal sin (of one kind or another), and receive the Eucharist anyway, doesn't mean it's right.  This is the Body and Blood of Christ we are talking about -- and St. Paul warns in one of his epistles that we should be very careful not to receive communion while in a state of serious sin, because doing so is a sin against the Body and Blood and brings judgment upon us.  (1 Corinthians 11:26-29.  The King James translation, which Catholics don't use, colorfully says in 11:28 that "he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself")

So yes, it is a big deal.

Karinabobina

I see your point but I guess that's one of the reasons I'm having issues with the Catholic church. I'm choosing to commit to and love my fiance forever, yet I'm living in mortal sin. I am a good person, with morals and live my life being the best person I can be, but that's still not enough. Yet, preists who have commited unforgiveable sins are allowed to continue being preists. I didn't want this to be a theology debate because there's no winning at all. Everyone is welcome to their opinion. I guess it's a good idea that i chose to have an outdoor ceremony since I"m so on the fence about my religion now.

mica178

Oh please.  If you are one of those people so easy swayed by the popular media as to question Catholicism over the (horrendous) sins of a few weak humans, then go ahead and leave.

We don't question teachers, despite the fact that some of them are found to be pedophiles who are put on academic leave during their trial, but we jump all over the priests?  There have been multple filed cases of rabbis abusing young Jewish boys training for their bar mitzah, but we never hear about that from the popular media.  Why do we ignore the sins of all other professionals who commit the same crime but jump all over the priests?  Read Bill Donohue's piece for CNN in March of this year, and then we can talk again.

I am absolutely disappointed by those few men who hid in the priesthood rather than confront their demons, who abused the innocent.  But there is so much that is good about Catholicism that I am not going to hold the entire religion accountable for the sins of the few when there has been so much good work by the many.

If you have issue with not being able to have your outdoor wedding, then go.  Stop dither dathering about convalidation to appease your grandmother and go.  Own up to your beliefs and stop half-assing it.  But don't justify leaving the church by blaming Cardinal Sean Brady.  Let's be honest.  That's not why you're leaving.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-someone-tell-this-true?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:597f78c7-7188-43ed-ab17-f10d9049e763Post:508b6a01-f005-421f-bae3-edd6d3c2f458">Re: Can someone tell me if this is true..</a>:
[QUOTE]I see your point but I guess that's one of the reasons I'm having issues with the Catholic church. I'm choosing to commit to and love my fiance forever, yet I'm living in mortal sin. I am a good person, with morals and live my life being the best person I can be, but that's still not enough. Yet, preists who have commited unforgiveable sins are allowed to continue being preists. I didn't want this to be a theology debate because there's no winning at all. Everyone is welcome to their opinion. I guess it's a good idea that i chose to have an outdoor ceremony since I"m so on the fence about my religion now.
Posted by Karinabobina[/QUOTE]

But see, through the church, you are not choosing to commit to your fiance forever, because it isn't a valid marriage. Instead, you are turning away from the church and having a public celebration of it, which is basically like thumbing your nose at her.
in order to have valid sacraments in the church, there has to be valid form and matter. I don't understand why people have a hard time understanding the church's role in stating how her sacraments are done.

I beg you to do some reading about why the church teaches what she does. I use to have all sorts of disagreements until I did some research to find out why for 2000 years the teachings have remained still and unchanged. (not disciplines, but teachings of faith and morals).

Karinabobina

It was really a simple question about whether or not what my grandma stated was true or not. And I don't really know what you're implying by stating why my real intentions are for leaving? I"m also not one to think it's ok for ANYONE to hurt anyone else no matter who or what they are.  I said I have a lot of thinking to do and research to do on this issue and what is right for me. I just realized maybe about a year ago that I only believed what I believe because it was all I knew. I've said from the begining that I am a believer in the foundation the church has set in leading a good life and having morals. I am not trying to speak poorly about  EVERYONE in the church. I was going through a tough time in my life and my mom suggested I speak with a priest. So I did. And the only thing that came from that was feeling judged. Our priest had some heavy duty accusations about innapproriate behavior with women, not little boys, and I experienced it first hand. He would say very innappropriate things that were not ok, luckily that's all I experienced. He was asked to leave our church and was sent some where else. How is that ok? I have a lot of questions as to why somethings are ok, and some are not. And I admit I know very little, that's why I had the question in the first place. I'm not going to deicde to just leave the church with out making an informed decision. I have already stated that I do have a lot of soul searching to do on this matter. And I know that not all churches are the same.....I happen to belong to a parish that is very, very old fashioned and that's probably not where I belong.

I understand how our marriage would not be recognized by the catholic church. I've always understood that. I just didn't understand that since we were not married in the church I would be committing a mortal sin. And whatever the rules may be, it's hard to accept that my getting married is still going to be considered a mortal sin. It seems harsh. I didn't mean to turn this into a debate, but I feel I should at least clarify my postion because I don't want to look like someone who is just trying to defame the church. Those are not my inentions. I'm also not going to pretend that there are things I do not agree with, and I think that's fair. Has anyone else had to decide if this is something they really believe in and how did you go about doing so? Did you actually go to the church or research things? Advice on that would be appreciated.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-someone-tell-this-true?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:597f78c7-7188-43ed-ab17-f10d9049e763Post:7a8719cf-82fe-4f44-afbf-12c16850e42c">Re: Can someone tell me if this is true..</a>:
[QUOTE]It . I understand how our marriage would not be recognized by the catholic church. I've always understood that. I just didn't understand that since we were not married in the church I would be committing a mortal sin. And whatever the rules may be, it's hard to accept that my getting married is still going to be considered a mortal sin. It seems harsh. I didn't mean to turn this into a debate, but I feel I should at least clarify my postion because I don't want to look like someone who is just trying to defame the church. Those are not my inentions. I'm also not going to pretend that there are things I do not agree with, and I think that's fair. Has anyone else had to decide if this is something they really believe in and how did you go about doing so? Did you actually go to the church or research things? Advice on that would be appreciated.
Posted by Karinabobina[/QUOTE]

It's been explained already here several times why it is a mortal sin. Because it is a public act proclaiming beliefs different from the church. Also, because it isn't a valid marriage, any sexual relations would be considered sex outside of marriage.

When I did my research I read books that had an impramatur and nahil obstat on them--- which means that they are free from doctrinal error in faith and morals, and that a bishop has declared it worthy to be written.

I can give more specific book suggestions if I knew the nature of your disagreements, so feel free to pm me if you wanted to share that (I don't think this forum is the place for that).

Theresa626

You know, when someone is questioning their faith as much as Karina is, the one thing you can do to totally turn them away from it is judge them or make them feel bad for questioning it which is exactly what you girls are doing even if you don't realize it.  Instead of feeling like she is attacking your religion, perhaps you could help her with her doubts.   

Karina, everyone doubts their faith at one point or another.  I've had the same doubting feelings that you've had as well.  Sometimes, there aren't any good answers as to why these things happen.  I've kept searching for answers myself and there really aren't any.  I guess you just have to decide if the good you get from your faith outweighs the bad.  Take the positive things you can take from it and try to avoid the negative.  There are always crappy people who don't act the way they should and they can really ruin your faith.  I guess you just have to try to believe that not everyone is that way and discern for yourself what it means to you to be Catholic and what a good Catholic should be like.  You shouldn't have to feel judged.  Even if you do, I don't think that is what Christ intended you to feel.   

agapecarrie

There hasn't been any judgemental statements here (which means to condemn someone's soul to hell). All thats been stated here is facts about what the church believes, and others by their own personal beliefs that disagree with them.

In fact, every time I've stated what the church believes, I keep my opinion out of it, I just simply state the facts about what the church believes.

yet somehow, this word "judging" gets thrown around. Catholics are obligated to judge actions (not people) according to Christ. Thats what forming a conscience is about.

It's like saying this: A vegetarian doesn't eat meat.
a meat eater says: how dare you judge me, I can be a meat eating vegetarian if I want to.

By very definition of the word, there are certain facts about groups and what they believe. Stating what those are are not judgement on someone else.

(and yes I know there are variations of vegetarianism, but thats not the point here)

Riss91

Karina, I'm sorry you had such an awful experience. It really is such a shame that a few individuals spoil things for so many. It upsets me that the "bad eggs" are the ones that the Church is constantly recognized for in the media. I want to assure you that there are amazing priests and parishes out there that are helpful and caring (and most of them are just as upset by these bad preists as you are). I highly recommend searching around until you feel comfortable in a parish. We travel 20 minutes to ours because we truly believe our Pastor is an amazing person and he is leading the parish in the right direction.

I was raised Catholic, but really, my CCD classes taught me next to nothing about the faith and my parents were not very involved, so by highschool, I wasn't even practicing. My now husband is largely responsible for me "coming back" to the faith. He's studied the Church's teachings thoroughly as well as many other religions (in college he majored in theology and even learned Aramaic) and he is constantly reading more and more. He's a journalist and writes in Catholic publications as well as others. He was instrumental to me really learning the foundation of the Church. I think you are right that the big ideas are the most important. But most religions all agree on those, so it is important to determine which denomination fits your beliefs. There are reasons why the Catholic church is different from a Protestant, Episcopalian, Anglican or Presbyterian church (to name a few). Examine the differences and you should be able to see where your beliefs fall. Honestly, if you have any questions, I am more than willing to help, just PM me! i think it's great to challenge the ideas of the Church, that is how I bcame stronger in my faith.

Please understand that some of us here are constantly being asked questions by people that are trying to skirt the system, or get the Catholic "stamp" on their marriage when they clearly do not support the Church's teachings and in some cases renounce many of the larger opinions of the Church. It can feel like an attack to our faith. This is not to excuse us for being blunt and maybe condescending at times, but hopefully you understand that we're trying to defend our faith and our Church. Like Theresa said, it would behoove us to respond in a more caring and helpful manner. Hopefully, we can improve on this. Best of luck with your planning!

mica178

I apologize for coming across as harsh.  It's a frustration of mine that people leave the church over one issue because it's not convenient to them.  It would have been far "easier" for my FI and me to get married on a beach somewhere 3 months after our engagement rather than go through the pre-cana and plan a Catholic wedding.  But we're doing things according to the "rules" of our church because we believe that a strong marriage starts with a strong relationship with God, and that means doing things properly.  Matthew 7:24-29.

If you read to my first post in this thread, I recommended that the OP check out other churches to see if she could find a better fit.  Priests come in all flavors, and you might find one that reasonates with you.  The rules of being a Catholic won't change, but you might like another person's delivery of the message better.

And I am of the opinion that if you really don't like the requirements of the Catholic church to obtain the sacraments, you should own up to your feelings rather that try to find a way around them.  It's okay.  Jesus is forgiving.  But even He doesn't think we can have our cake and eat it too.

Pray, that's usually the best first step in making your decision.

** OP, I sent you a PM

Calypso1977

i think there is a big difference between questioning your faith or some teachings of your faith and flat out not agreeing with the faith or some teachings.

questioning is natural - we all have "free will" which is why we question and make choices accordingly.  however, if after the questioning, you decide you dont agree with some or all tenents of the faith, then perhaps its time to find one that has elements that you do agree with.  that is not meant to be judgmental or to slam anyone, but that's a fact.

yes, the sex abuse scandals continue to be a blemish on our Church.  however, personally, i dont think they are worth throwing away my faith over.  many, of course, disagree and have left the church because of it.

CCD as unfortunately clouded things for many.  when you have cafeteria catholics teaching CCD, naturally those being taught are going to receive a watered down version of what they really need to know in order to make an informed decision about whehter they really want to be Catholic or not.  my parents instructed me in the faith using Baltimore Catechism.  that is how they were taught the faith.  i dont think CCD classes today even use the baltimore catechism as a foundation for waht they teach. my husband had never even heard of it - and his mother was a CCD teacher.

i encourage many of you on here to google it if you've never heard of it.  its a great resource and spells the "rules" out pretty clear.

Karinabobina

Thanks for all of those posts ) Nice to know I'm not the only one who has ever questioned religion. And I agree, CCD classes did almost nothing for me as well!

Calypso1977

karina, you definitley arent.  i consider myself relatively devout (my biggest flaw is not attending church every sunday) and definitely a conservative, traditional catholic.  but i've defintiely had my moments, particularly in my 20's and the college years when i was out on my own and sin was everywhere, in my face, all the time.  it seems easier now to be Catholic.  not sure if its because i'm older/more mature or if its my marital sacrament keeping me on path or both.

clearheavens

I agree with everything Riss91 said.  She is totally right.  Right now, you need charity the most, to feel that the Church is welcoming, beckoning, and yearning you so much to feel at peace and at home.  That is above all.

I want you to know that I am praying for you in this rough time of decision making.  I have no doubt from what you described that you are a good and moral person with solid values.  Now, further form your conscience with an open heart through prayer, further education on Church Teachings, and Eucharist and confession.  At times, it may feel a waste of time, you may be confused or embarrassed by some of the practices, you may even meet bad people at church, but don't stop.  Be patient.  Your desire to know and love God will please him and I know that if you continue your quest to know and love God, he will lead you home to the right place.

OuachitaTrixie

I think I read every response to Karina's question thoroughly and if I missed the explanation of this please point it out to me.  Why can't we get married outside?  I know that this is only one part of Karina's question but I am very curious about the answer.
As a child I participated in many outdoor Masses so I don't understand why a marriage can't take place outside.  If someone knows why please let me know.

To Karina: I'm praying for you and for myself.  We are both in the same place.  My FI is not Catholic, and does not yet know if he will convert.  He will begin attending RCIA in September but will not make his decision until he feels he fully understands what commitment he might make.  That aside, we still want an outdoor wedding, in the beauty that God created himself, not in a man-built church.  It is not for lack of faith, but because we feel closer to God and all His creation in trees, the clean fresh air, in the birds, and the sound of the cicadas.

Riss91

Ouachitatrixie - In order to have a mass or wedding ceremony held outdoors, you will need a special dispensation from the Bishop, which is not easy to come by. some reasons why weddings are to be held in a church:
- while all space is sacred, both indoors and outdoors, certain places (Catholic churches) are consecrated to Him
- weddings are also meant to be a public statement where the congregation participates. If you choose to be married on a beach, the Catholic community is to some extent prevented from witnessing, as it is a private event.
- we are as close to God there (through the Holy Eucharist, which is always present except near Easter) than anywhere else
- inside a church, the focus is our Lord and the sacrament taking place, whereas outdoors, the scenery may become more of a focal point

here's a link to the related code in Canon Law

Theresa626

Quachita, I totally agree with you. I think it is a stupid rule.  We have mass outside twice a year and people can find it just fine. There is a sign on the door.  The church never worries about it being not sacred or something.  I really think the whole rule about not having weddings outside is totally stupid.  But, the reasons Riss listed are the church's reasons.  I still think they don't make sense considering mass is held outside all the time.  

Riss91

Theresa - on which occasions do you have mass outside? Is it on the grounds of the church? Our church holds part of the mass outside (on the church property) for certain occasions like Palm Sunday, but we start and end mass inside the church. This is with the latin mass I now attend. At my previous parish, when I attended the new mass, we never held mass outdoors. Seriously just curious because I know different parishes operate differently