Postpartum NFP question

christyhal

Hi ladies, 

I was around this board for a bit before our wedding last May, but haven't been on the knot much since...too much going on!

I have an NFP question:

I never learned an NFP method before we got married.  I was on hormonal birth control before the marriage (we abstained until marriage) to control endometriosis and on no birth control method after the marriage.  We are expecting our first baby in late September.  

We do not want to use any artificial birth control after the baby.  I am planning to breastfeed, which I know has some fertility reduction effect (at least it did for my mother with all 5 of us!) but I know this is not a sure thing.   We do want to have at least one more baby, but I'd like to give my body a bit of recovery time in between!  

What NFP method would you ladies suggest I look into for learning postpartum?  I realize this is probably a difficult and very non-ideal situation in which to learn NFP, but at this point there's not much for it!  :-P

Is there one method that is better than others for postpartum?  For somebody trying this for the first time? (I will say that even pre-pregnancy my sleeping patterns are erratic, so something requiring me to take a temperature at the same time every day probably won't be ideal.)  Can you point me towards any good resources dealing with postpartum NFP specifically?

TIA!

bibliophile2010

I would recommend either Billings or Creighton. I know that Tea switched to Billings post-partum, because babies and temps are not ideally suited to one another. I know that, in my Creighton class, there were a couple of couples who were postpartum. I've not implemented it yet, but I'm confident that we'll get through PP. H and I will probably use fairly conservatively since we would like some space between babies for a variety of reasons.

Welcome back, and congrats on the LO!

TeaForMe

Yes, Biblio is correct! I switched from the sympto-thermal method to Billings after our little guy was  born (also a September baby! Yay!) There was no way I was going to be getting a consistent amount of sleep in order for temping to work (and temping in a secondary sign anyway) so I switched. We started charting with Billings the end of January and though ideally I should have learned it before getting pregnant, it is definitely do-able.

 FWIW, I am still breastfeeding (9+ months so far) and still have not ovulated, though some women will return to their normal fertility much quicker. Billings is definitely a great choice for post-partum/ while breastfeeding since it is mucus only. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask! And congrats on the little one!

agapecarrie

You cannot use creighton "conservatively" or "liberally" there is no such distinction in creighton. You are either avoiding or achieving. That is one reason why I like creighton method philosophy.

professorscience

Congratulations!!!  How exciting!

I don't have much to add, except that I remember a Knottie recommending this book (click here) for NFP post partum.

Good luck!

christyhal

Thanks, all!

TeaForMe

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_postpartum-nfp-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:88d726c5-a414-4667-af72-d22e0abc501ePost:c2afb08a-8046-4f03-80e1-ec9af288f283">Re:Postpartum NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]You cannot use creighton "conservatively" or "liberally" there is no such distinction in creighton. You are either avoiding or achieving. That is one reason why I like creighton method philosophy.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I would argue that *all* NFP methods are this way. You are either following the rules to TTA or you are not. Though, as one of my trainers said, you can be TTA one minute and decide the next minute that you are not. I think therein lies the "conservative" vs "liberal" use - it's not so much how you use the method, but rather one's attitude towards TTC/TTA.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_postpartum-nfp-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:88d726c5-a414-4667-af72-d22e0abc501ePost:b2739c90-2975-43eb-8729-aca657d22992">Re:Postpartum NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Postpartum NFP question : I would argue that *all* NFP methods are this way. You are either following the rules to TTA or you are not. Though, as one of my trainers said, you can be TTA one minute and decide the next minute that you are not. I think therein lies the "conservative" vs "liberal" use - it's not so much how you use the method, but rather one's attitude towards TTC/TTA.
Posted by TeaForMe[/QUOTE]

<div>Actually, I've heard many different people talk about different rules with STM...using phase 1 or not...being more conservative and what not. </div>

professorscience

"Conservative" and "Liberal" might just apply to "knowing" the rules to TTA and "following" them.  H and I know that to avoid pregnancy, we need to abstain during certain times, but that really hasn't stopped us since we moved in together.

lalaith50

If I were using Creighton, I could *still* be "extra conservative" by not using phase I (or whatever that time before fertile mucus is called in Creighton.) Because, like my current STM, I would be thinking that there is always a chance that I missed or misidentified fertile CM.

How is that NOT being "more conservative?"

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_postpartum-nfp-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:88d726c5-a414-4667-af72-d22e0abc501ePost:16f4bb78-1da6-4580-82c6-25ecb86364d5">Re: Postpartum NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]If I were using Creighton, I could *still* be "extra conservative" by not using phase I (or whatever that time before fertile mucus is called in Creighton.) Because, like my current STM, I would be thinking that there is always a chance  that I missed or misidentified fertile CM. How is that NOT being "more conservative?"
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

<div>That distinction doesn't exist in Creighton.  This is doubting your own observations, NOT using the method differently.</div><div>
</div><div>If one is in doubt with their observation on a particular day, they mark it fertile, and count 3 days. It's black and white. If you are using the method to avoid, then those are abstaining days. </div><div>
</div><div>
</div>

Riss91

I think what everyone is getting at is that you could have "non-fertile" signs and decide to abstain anyway, just in case. Or you could have "fertile" signs and decide not to abstain.

Obviously, the methods all have guidelines to follow - but the user can decide to be more strict with their interpretation.

lalaith50

So, Agape, you are implying that in the entire history of Creighton, there has never been a SINGLE unintended pregnancy from relations in Phase 1 that was actually method error? (I am quite sure that Creighton, like any form of NFP or birth control, does not have a 0% failure rate, even a method failure rate {not just a user failure rate.})

You are saying that in the entire history of women using Creighton, there has never been fertile mucus that was impossible to be detected by the user in Phase 1, that could have resulted in a pregnancy?

Because it seems to me that if you want to avoid being that 1% or whatever statistic of the METHOD failure, then your best bet to do that would be to abstain during Phase 1. And THAT is being "extra conservative."

Resa77

Lalaith, I think Carrie is saying there's no "phase 1, phase 2, phase 3" in Creighton.  There's pre-peak and post-peak.   So in STM, you can either abstain or avoid in phase 1 "to be safe," but in Creighton it doesn't work exactly that way. 

Riss91

Interesting! So, in Creighton, if you are avoiding, do you abstain during pre-preak?

shawna127

Riss- You don't have to abstain on "dry" days pre-peak.  But on any day with mucus you do have to abstain.  Granted, I only started doing Creighton (switched from STM) a month ago, but so far that is my understanding )

lalaith50

ok, well, my point/question still stands. Creighton, like any method or birth control, has a method failure rate. This COULD be lessened or avoided if you "added" your own rules to whatever the rules are, for example, in the case of the "count three days," you could count 4 days.

I don't understand why Agape is so insistent that you can't be "extra conservative" and if you are, then you're just doubting your own observations. There IS a method failure rate, and some people might want to add extra rules (aka "be extra conservative,")  to try and lessen those chances with them!

Resa77

Shawna -- you also abstain on dry days that are part of the count of three, right?  For example, you could have 4 days of tacky mucus, and then be dry.  You'd have to use the green baby stickers for three days of dryness after the 4 days of mucus, and you'd abstain during the count of three.  Count of three goes after peak day (last day of peak-type mucus), OR dry days after 3 or more days of non-peak mucus

Resa77

Lalaith, I see what you're saying.  By adding a 4th day, for example, you're not doubting your observations, necessarily; you're doubting the method. 

Riss91

I guess it is correct that by being "conservative" or "liberal", you aren't following the method perfectly. But you may not be in conflict with it, either.

If I have a recipe, and I sprinkle in some extra pepper, I am not following the recipe perfectly, but I'm not necessarily ruining the meal either.

lalaith50

not necessarily "doubting it," rather, acknowleding that it has a failure rate. But, couldn't you spend years and years using Creighton and be highly trained, and still acknowledge that you *might* have missed some imperceptible CM, and therefore add a day or abstain early, I suppose you could call it b/c of doubting your observations, but your concern and additional care would be b/c you don't want to have the method fail. Either b/c of method failure rate or user failure rate. That's being "extra conservative."

agapecarrie

Regarding the "3" days...

There are all sorts of extra pre-peak rules that aren't used post-peak.

use of End of day only is one. 

Also, when adding 3 days , you actually wait until the end of 4th day. 

If one thinks they may have missed something pre-peak, you mark it with a white baby sticker and add 3 days, period. Whenever in doubt of your own observations, there is no "being conservative" There is no sliding scale. If you are in doubt, and have sexual relations that day, you are now employing the method to achieve pregnancy. There are no iffy days. 

It's a completely different philosophy than the some other methods which is why I like it so much. 

TeaForMe

Here's my thought - if you choose to abstain for any reason while charting, you are still following the rules. Just ensuring there is no chance of pregnancy. For instance, I had to be sure not to be pregnant for surgery earlier this year, so we abstained for a few weeks to be sure I could have the surgery. Were we changing or adding any rules? No, we just weren't using days that were available. So I see this as being conservative.

I guess if you go the other way and decide that "well, we waited 2 dry days after a fertile day" (Billings or Creighton) or "well, there's hardly any mucus there" (STM) and decide to have intercourse, that could be what some would call a "liberal" interpretation and it shows you are open to getting pregnant (I realize with all methods you are open to pregnancy technically, but moreso if you decide not to follow the rules).

So, yes, technically if you aren't following the rules, you aren't using the method. But in the "real world" of use, that's kind of how it works. There are couples abstaining more than they would need to to be certain to avoid pregnancy and there are those who are willing to take the risk but aren't actively trying to conceive.

lalaith50

Agape, you haven't answered my question.

Has there EVER been a single method failure with Creighton?

If so (and yes, there has),why wouldn't someone who did not want to become that statistic of "method failure" for example, add a 4th dry day, even if they were SURE all the other three days were dry?

Why do you not consider that being "extra conservative?"

Riss91

The problem is that we're talking about something that sometimes doesn't seem so black and white and trying to make it so. You could possibly have two people, with the same exact CM - one could have a "doubt" and therefore say it's one thing (fertile), and another could say something different (non-fertile). Or, they could both say it is fertile, and one abstains for an extra day longer than they have to, according to the method.

Some people have more "doubts" about their abilities to make the proper observation than others. So, lala may say that they are being conservative, while agape would say they are simply following the method.

I think it's a po-tay-to/po-tah-to thing.

Riss91

Most of science is based on judgement. Two scientists can observe the same thing and document slightly different results. This is why double-blind studies exist. Subjectivity exists, even when there are clearly defined parameters.

catarntina

OP -- I'm 5 months post-partum, breastfeeding, and haven't gotten a period yet.  Breastfeeding is not a guarantee of delayed fertility, I've just been lucky (like your mom!).

I suggest signing up for a class -- Billings, Creighton, STM can all work.  You probably want to learn how to use NFP in a normal, non-post-partum body first.  Since you don't have the option to actually chart your cycles, the classes still might benefit to learn the rules.  Post-partum rules (at least for STM) are just an extension and slight modification of the regular rules.  CCL (they teach STM) also has a class you can take for post-partum.  If it is offered in your area, you should take it in your 3rd tri or shortly after the baby is born.  You can buy the book they use in the class on Amazon for about $16.  I found it helpful.

TCOYF (also STM) touches on it briefly, but does not go nearly in-depth as it should.

For the first 2 or so months pp, don't worry about taking your temperature.  A.) you can't have sex until you're 6 weeks pp.  The baby is probably waking you up 6 times in the middle of the night and the temperature won't be accurate at all.  Around 2 months (hopefully!!), they start getting better about dropping nighttime feedings, and you can start taking your temperature again.  N is down to 1 feeding or sometimes he sleeps through the night.

Since you're starting fresh, it might be easier to get a creighton or billings teacher and not deal with the temperature thing at all.  I couldn't find a Creighton teacher in my area, so I'm still using STM.

lalaith50

Also, like TeaForMe was saying, while the actual philosophy might be "If your not trying to postpone then you are trying to achieve," how can it say what someone's thoughts and intentions are?

Why does Creighton not admit that there IS, for real couples with real lives, a medium ground, "we don't want to get pregnant right now, but we are willing to take a small risk that we will."?

It doesnt matter what method you use, ovulation is still on the same day. I can't remember what the exact percentages are, but for example on ovulation day there is a 40% chance you'll get pregnant, then the first dry day a 10% chance, then the 2nd dry day a 2% chance.

In the real world people are willing to take that 2% chance, but not the 40% chance, so why does Creighton think that it can dictate to them their intentions (whether they are "trying to achieve,") and not acknowledge that there is a middle ground?)

Agape, I hope you don't feel like I'm attacking you or your method, but I hope that you realize that you kind of set yourself and your method up for criticism when you constantly say things that sound like, "Creighton is perfect..."

Resa77

Good summary, Riss! 

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_postpartum-nfp-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:88d726c5-a414-4667-af72-d22e0abc501ePost:ebedaa3e-db88-45b1-845b-06c5a4c94e3f">Re: Postpartum NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]Good summary, Riss! 
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

Thanks! I try :-)

caitriona87

I've heard good things about Marquette, which uses mucus and a monitor, for post-partum, though it is a bit pricier than some of the other options