Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony

ChrislovesBarry

Hello All.

I need your guidance.  I was raised Catholic but do not currently practice, though I do attend regular Christian church.  My fiance is divorced and will not be getting an annulment (was not married in Catholic church) because of his 2 boys.

Both my Mother & sister eloped and I am the only one that will be able to present flowers to the Blessed Mother.  Especially since I will be becoming both a wife and a stepmother, I believe it to be very important part of the ceremony to ask for guidance to be a good wife and mother from the Virgin Mary.

I am also having an opera singer sing Ave Maria (will not be a dry eye in the house).  But I wasn't sure of the order for the ceremony.  We are also doing the sand ceremony with the boys as a family.  I believe it to be appropriate while the singer is singing Ave Maria to present the flowers and the sand ceremony.

What order should this appear within the ceremony?  Is it after the vows and before the ring exchange?  Are they completely seperate?  Would it be an insult to include this in my ceremony even though it will not be a Catholic wedding?

What are your thoughts?

Thank you!

agapecarrie

Mary is a representation of the church....so, I find it a bit offputting that you are showing this honor to her, but really don't want to be a part of the bigger picture that she represents. Mary, at the wedding of cana, tells the people to "do what he (Jesus) tells you"  Your marriage will not be considered valid.

There is no reason that someone who has children can't appy for annulment. Please consider doing so that he is free to marry, because right now, the church presumes he is still married to his first wife.  (If he wasn't baptized Catholic. If he was, he actually doesn't need a full out annulment because his first marriage isn't considered valid).

ChrislovesBarry

What I've been told by the priest that if he got an annullment, his children would be considered illiegitimate.  That's a big reason...so I'm not going to do that. And yes he was baptized Catholic.  I was told also that because I don't want children of my own that I shouldn't get married.  So I've been turned off from the Catholic Church.

I loved being a practicing Catholic and the celebration of mass, but after stating the above, I hope you can understand my hestiation in getting married by a priest and feeling pushed away from the Catholic church.

It's hurtful that you say my wedding will not be valid, because I've chosen to get married by a pastor and not a priest. 

ChrislovesBarry

Thank you Bree!

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_flowers-blessed-mother-sand-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8cac2a33-b7e2-4691-a8a9-d94c7ad648ecPost:f59c21f1-8b33-48b5-8d0b-ce66144249a0">Re: Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]What I've been told by the priest that if he got an annullment, his children would be considered illiegitimate.  That's a big reason...so I'm not going to do that.
Posted by ChrislovesBarry[/QUOTE]

Your priest gave you incorect information, as many do. This is simply NOT TRUE.

Canon law states that "children who are conceived or born of a valid or of a putative marriage are legitimate." A marriage which is eventually discerned to be invalid through the annulment process was nevertheless considered valid by both parties at the time of the wedding, and presumably at the time the children were conceived. This constitutes a "putative marriage", and children conceived in such a relationship are therefore legitimate.

    Canon 1137 of the Code of Canon Law specifically affirms the legitimacy of children born in both valid and putative marriages (objectively invalid, though at least one party celebrated in good faith).

laurenes

I'm a little confused...

At first when I read this I thought you were having a Catholic wedding, but now I see you are having a non-Catholic Christian (I think?) ceremony, and you just want to incorporate a Catholic tradition of presenting the flowers to Mary as part of it.

I believe many Catholics normally do this after communion. I do not know if your particular Christian church does communion. If not, you can probably just add it where ever it feels most natural to you. However, I would make sure that your church is ok with it first. I'm certainly not insulted as a Catholic that you would want to incorporate this tradition, but I do know that many protestant denominations see this as "Mary worship" and would probably not be ok with this ritual. This would be something to talk w/ your pastor about. If he/she is ok with it, then hooray. If they are mildly uncomfortable with it, you can probably try explaining at how you're asking for help to be a good wife/mother to see if they like it then, though again, many protestant churchs frown on asking saints/mary for intercession as they see this as a type of paganism, so you may be out of luck. If they are hands down "NO" about it, you're out of luck.

Good luck with your planning, it sounds like your ceremony will be lovely.

ChrislovesBarry

I have spoken with the Pastor and he's fine with the presentation to the Virgin Mary.  He thought it was wonderful in fact because of the meaning.

Thank you Laurenes!

ChrislovesBarry

Riss...thank you for the information.  Maybe I should try a different priest from a different church.

This wedding is only 23 days away...so maybe our first anniversary in the Catholic Church if this is true.

laurenes

I'm glad I could help.

As a side noted, I believe what Riss said is true.

As far as you not wanting to have children; most priests will consider kids a requirement. Ours simply asked us if we would refrain from using unnatural means to prevent having kids. Of course, I probably mentioned about 1000 times before this that I want tons of kids, so he didn't really need to ask.

I was raised in Catholic school though, and while covering the Catholic marriage sacrament in class, my religion teachers did note that some of their friends had gotten married in the Catholic church although they had no intention of having children. Technically, if a couple is physically unable to have children, they are allowed to marry within the church if the intend to use their relationship to spread God's love in other ways (charity, etc, or in your case, showing God's love to your stepchildren). In particular, one religion teacher had a friend who was physically capable of having children, but due to long, significant hx of parents abusing children in the family (I don't know the nature of the abuse, nor do I want to know, I just know it was a factor), the woman was afraid that she would be unable to break the cycle if she had kids herself. I think she had to talk to 3 to 4 different priests before she found one who sympathized with her situation and agreed to marry them. I'm by no means trying to tell you to go on a priest hunt if you've already got plans to marry elsewhere, I just wanted to let you know in case you wanted to keep the option of a Catholic marriage on the table.

Good luck with all of your preparations!

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_flowers-blessed-mother-sand-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8cac2a33-b7e2-4691-a8a9-d94c7ad648ecPost:687f93ba-fbd2-4637-972a-b6b3b085a186">Re: Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]Riss...thank you for the information.  Maybe I should try a different priest from a different church. This wedding is only 23 days away...so maybe our first anniversary in the Catholic Church if this is true.
Posted by ChrislovesBarry[/QUOTE]

You're welcome! It's far too common for priests, lay people and followers of the faith to misunderstand the teachings. It's always good to try and find the proof in the Canon Law to be sure, or at least speak with a few authorities on the subject.

agapecarrie

If he was baptized catholic and married outside the church, then his first marriage Was not valid. This is simply getting a lack of form decree. I'm order for a sacrament to be valid, legitimacy of children are not really even a factor in the church, this is more of a civil term. A Catholic must have the correct form and matter...this is true for any sacrament. One has to follow the laws where they live to have a valid marriage. Why not the church who actually has the authority given by Christ? One must also be open to life for their marriage to be considered valid.

Calypso1977

As far as you not wanting to have children; most priests will consider kids a requirement.

kids are not a "requirement", but one is supposed to be open to them.  kids come in many forms - bilological, adopted, foster, etc.    to say kids are a requirement would mean that someone who is known to be barren, for example, shoudl not be allowed to marry, and that simply isnt true.  a  barren person can have a wonderful catholic marriage and live the catholic life even if they cant have children. 

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_flowers-blessed-mother-sand-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8cac2a33-b7e2-4691-a8a9-d94c7ad648ecPost:4f462759-94c9-4b3e-98a4-4854d4af71ae">Re: Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony : Again. One must also be open to life for their marriage to be considered valid in the eyes of the Catholic church .
Posted by bree4305[/QUOTE]

For a catholic, that's the one that matters. This determines the actual joining by God for Catholics. Catholics believe marriage is much more that just a joining of assets. It's a spiritual bond sealed that cannot be undone until death. It is what "is". A catholic who marries outside the church is removing themselves from communion and can no longer receive the sacraments.

ChrislovesBarry

There's so much different information that's different from what I've been told by my priest.  Would you advise to talk to another or confirm with the local diocese?  I'd hate to "Shop around" for a priest until I get the answer I want, but I would like to get confirmation of the information I've been told.

It's a little disappointing when I was told one thing and that's lead me in the direction of a Christian based wedding vs. a Catholic wedding. The last Mass I went to I left because I felt like I had a scarlet letter because I fell in love with a divorced man with kids.  I felt unworthy of being there. Catholic guilt I guess.

I love my fiance and his children and want to spend the rest of my life with them all.  He's a great man and father to his boys, but like I said, but I couldn't bear putting them what the priest had said.

Riss91

Here is a direct link to the Canon law on the Vatican website. I think that is more proof of the true Catholic law than anything a priest will tell you!

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P43.HTM

Calypso1977

unfortunately, many priests like to interject personal opinions both on the ultra conservative hard core side and the liberal side.  bottom line is, canon law/church law is what stands.

ootmother2

That's a great link that Riss posted and you should really follow that as well as the advice of your spiritual leader more than a wedding message board.

ETA:  While Catholics revere the Blessed Mother, all Christian view Mary as the mother of Christ Jesus.  I think that by itself is enough reason for you to want flowers to honor her.  I think it' very touching.

ChrislovesBarry

Thank you all so much for you love and guidance.  God Bless you all!

Bug hugs all around.

Irishcurls

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_flowers-blessed-mother-sand-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8cac2a33-b7e2-4691-a8a9-d94c7ad648ecPost:255889eb-af62-4ef1-a6cd-9f4e4f74fa36">Re: Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony : <strong>For a catholic, that's the one that matters.</strong> This determines the actual joining by God for Catholics. Catholics believe marriage is much more that just a joining of assets. It's a spiritual bond sealed that cannot be undone until death. It is what "is". A catholic who marries outside the church is removing themselves from communion and can no longer receive the sacraments.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Just want to reiterate what Bree keeps trying to impress upon the OP I think--she's <em>not</em> a practicing Catholic, nor does she want to be....so it's not necessary to keep insinuating that her marriage must be valid in the Catholic church. You are correct in adding this information for those of us that want our marriage to be valid in the Church. It doesn't sound like that is what is right for the OP.

Riss91

True, but she had stated that she was at one time a practicing Catholic and that she was turned away by things that a priest told her that WERE NOT TRUE. She said herself that she would look into these things because she does feel connected to the faith. So, I don't think there is anything wrong with explaining what the requirements are in the Catholic church. It's pretty obvious that if you do not abide by the teachings of the Catholic Church, nor have any interest in being married in accordance with it, the requirements of the Church are not relevant to you.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_flowers-blessed-mother-sand-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8cac2a33-b7e2-4691-a8a9-d94c7ad648ecPost:2866d581-6196-405c-8cc2-7afc8bdd80da">Re: Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony : Exactly.  Just because that's what the Catholic religion teaches, it does not mean it's the be-all-end-all since not all people follow that religion.
Posted by bree4305[/QUOTE]

You are missing the point. Catholics believe that 2 non-catholics can get married anywhere and it can be valid.

But a CATHOLIC must get married according to form, or with a dispensation. This is what is, what actually exists in the spirtual plane whether someone believes it or not, the Catholic is bound by canon law...by their Baptism.

Irishcurls

Well I completely agree that the OP should explore all of the correct information given and decide, but especially if the FI still doesn't want an annulment, it's moot. I'm just saying I agree with Bree that just because something is Catholic law, doesn't mean people have to follow it. It becomes sort of off-putting when the only answer is, "because that's the rule." She clearly is struggling with this and has some searching to do. 

Edited for spelling. I need to go to bed. 

gwendolynclare

I hate to be fthrowing flames, but if the OP were at all interested in living her Catholic faith, she wouild have already sought out those resources online.  It's not hard to find anything online, especially Church teachings on marriage.  Since she has said she is not open to more children in her marriage, I'm not sure why she wants to devote her marriage to the BVM, which I was I was taught the flowers for Mary thing was.  It means you are *surrendering* your marriage and your life to God, just as Mary surrendered her life to God when she said yes (hey, look! Today's even the feast of the Annunciation!).  As always in the Catholic Church, no ritual or ceremony is without meaning.  This particular one, the placement of one's marriage under Mary's protection, is also a statement that you will live as she did - open to God's plan for you as a married women.  That means being open to life and to the Source of Life.  It's sort of silly to want to have this ceremony at your wedding because your sister and your mother didn't get to have it and you think it's pretty.  Look, the faith is meant to be lived every day, not just on special occasions.

lmeade62

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_flowers-blessed-mother-sand-ceremony?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8cac2a33-b7e2-4691-a8a9-d94c7ad648ecPost:232b16fb-e515-42d5-b325-5a05786e2024">Re: Flowers to the Blessed Mother & Sand Ceremony</a>:
[QUOTE]T The last Mass I went to I left because I felt like I had a scarlet letter because I fell in love with a divorced man with kids.  I felt unworthy of being there. Catholic guilt I guess. I love my fiance and his children and want to spend the rest of my life with them all.  He's a great man and father to his boys, but like I said, but I couldn't bear putting them what the priest had said.
Posted by ChrislovesBarry[/QUOTE]

I fell in love with  my fiance while he was still married as well, and in the process of getting divorced. I understand exactly what you mean about feeling like I was wearing a scarlet letter, and not just in the Church. A lot of my friends were very judgmental, even though we were very, very careful to keep our relationship platonic.

It helped a great deal when the Church affirmed the nullity of his first marriage, even though it had lasted 25 years and they had a child. The presence of their son had very little to do with their love for one another (which was pretty much non-existent) and everything to do with their love for their son (which is very apparent). It helped both of us to have the Church verify what we had believed all along - that his first marriage was not valid. However, I will affirm what others have said - an annulment does not render his children illegitimate.

I have found that talking with the tribunal itself is where you get the best answers with regard to an annulment. That is what they do, so I think they are a better source for facts than priests who, though they mean well, simply don't do annulments that often. Our priest frankly admitted that he was not as familiar with the process as the tribunal, and encouraged us to contact him.

I wish you the very best and pray for a good outcome to things! BTW, on the Mary thing - we are not going to present flowers to the Blessed Mother, but we do plan to have a small nosegay under her statue. Especially since my biological mother passed away some time ago, the Blessed Mother means a great deal to me, and I too wanted to honor her in some way.

Linda

agapecarrie

Everyone keeps talking about the annulment, but if what the OP says is true...the FI was baptized catholic and married outside the church...he just needs a lack of form.
It's pretty easy, quick, and not expensive.  I hope it works out.