Death Penalty

GeorgiaPeachMarie

I was taught in Catechesis that the church supports in theory the right to practice the death penalty. I am starting to think that I was taught incorrect information or something because this article was in our bulletin this morning. I feel as though my lay teacher in RCIA was talking about his personal beliefs when he discussed this topic. I remember him using very strong language when talking about this. I'm not trying to start WW3 or anything, I would just like to know what the official position is from the church because either I was taught incorrectly or our new parish has a group that goes against church teaching and we need to find a new parish. Copied and Pasted from the e-version.

.

NOW I WALK ON DEATH ROW  Pax Christi,

                                                           Florida Catholic

Conference & Tallahassee Citizens Against the Death

Penalty invite you to hear: DALE S. RECINELLA

speak on Sunday, September 11 at 2 PM in O'Brien

Hall at St. Thomas More Co-Cathedral, Tennessee &

Woodward. Dale will share his amazing journey from

high-powered lawyer to lay chaplain on death row at

Florida State Prison, Starke, FL. His new book: NOW

I TALK ON DEATH ROW will be available for

purchase. 

lalaith50

I'm pretty sure that the official Church teaching is that the death penalty is almost never, (if ever!) ok.

But you didn't say-- what were you taught in RCIA? It seems that this pasting is just saying that someone will be talking about why the death penalty isn't ok, right?

GeorgiaPeachMarie

In RCIA, I was taught that the Church absolutely believes that the state has the right and the duty to administer the death penalty. Our RCIA teacher used very strong language and spoke in absolutes and I'm starting to think that he was telling us his personal beliefs and was just pro-death penalty.

The group is rallying for no death penalty. So something doesn't jive. 

agapecarrie

When in doubt, read the catechism.

Explained: Not everything wrong is necessarily intrinsically wrong (or evil). If something is intrinsically wrong, that means it is wrong all of the time, every time, in every circumstance, era, place, etc. (Such as abortion)

At some point in history, in some locations, and possibly in the future, it may be impossible to protect a society from a violent serial murderer. This is can be a necessary cause to use the death penalty. The justice of it is self-defense...Just as one would protect themselves or others from violence in the moment.

However, our popes, when giving their opinion (which means this is not infallible magisterium teaching on faith and morals), have said that today, especially in our developed countries, that we probably do not have sufficient cause to use the death penalty currently.
(disclaimer: its been a long time since I read what the popes actually stated on the subject, but I know this is the jist).

One does not have to be "for" the death penalty to be a good Catholic.

mica178

Most Catholic people I know are against the death penalty, for the exact reason agapecarrie mentioned.  In modern societies, we have the ability to keep dangerous people away from the rest of society, so we do not need to execute them to keep society safe.

ootmother2

I've never heard a priest speak in favor of the death penalty.

It's murder as is abortion.  It's never justified.

GeorgiaPeachMarie

Personally, I don't support the death penalty and it was actually very shocking (to me) that our RCIA instructor spent a whole class telling us how the church supported the death penalty. I should have spoken up but being new to the Faith I didn't want to rock the boat so to speak. It didn't feel right to me and it really felt as though he was condescending. Thank everyone! 

ootmother2

Frankly, I think your RICA instructor may have been smoking something funny.   A good Catholic values life, born and unborn.

I remember a big problem here when Hugh Carey was governor of NYS.  He was a devout Catholic at the time but he just couldn't get the legislators to get ride of the death penalty.

caitriona87

On the topic--ditto agape; it is able to be used as a last resort to defend innocent life but Catholics of good will may differ on the application of that principle--whether the conditions are met in a given situation for it to be moral or not.  Which is to say, it does sound like the RCIA instructor was overstepping the bounds (or maybe leaving out some important qualifications) between his opinion vs. Church teaching but at the same time this is not on the same level of error as getting up there and saying abortion is ok.

Off topic--I went to college with his (the speaker's) son

agapecarrie

It is important here to distinguish there is a difference between this and abortion.

It is not an intrinsic evil as abortion is. There may at some point be a time and/or place it may be needed. At this point in time, in USA at least, not likely needed.

Just as if someone were to attack you on the street and you can use physical force to defend yourself.

ootmother2

The death penalty is no and will never be self defense!

That one innocent person put to death is just the same as aborting an innocent baby.

Go ahead and check the stats of men on Death Row who have been vindicated by newer testing, DNA for one.

Killing is killing.  baby or adult

agapecarrie

OOT,

I'm stating church teaching, not opinion.

I do not believe the death penalty is needed today in the USA. But the commandment is better translated : thou shalt not murder. (Not "thou shalt not kill")

I will refer to actual church teaching here: which indeed states that the death penalty is self defense.

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent."

ootmother2

" rare, almost non existant?"

Then they should give up trying to give an opinion on something they know is dead wrong!

agapecarrie

Again, we have to be careful in terms. Today, in the USA, yes, its wrong.

The world is bigger than the USA and the west. There are primitive (and have been) tribes that have no possible way of reliably incarcerating a serial murderer. We cannot put a non-existent moral code on them that doesn't exist. This is why it is not intrinsically evil the same way abortion is.

ootmother2

Perhaps your second point may hold some water but my concience wouldn't be able to handle it.

life is life.

The End

ootmother2

and before the Catholic Church even existed, there was a commandment

"Thou shalt not kill"

There were no add ons or exceptions to be interpreted by the Vatican. That one came straight from God.

agapecarrie

Again, as I said, it is "thou shalt not murder". not "thou shalt not kill" A very distinct difference in meaning.

And God is outside of time....the church is His bride, even before Christ walked the earth.

Again, as it is defined, is self defense. When one person is attacking another and threatens a life, their own life might be the only thing to take to protect the innocent.

ootmother2

Then all I can do is refer you back to the commandment, which came directly from God, not a Pope or any other Church official.


I do see where you live and I do know the number of executions.

goodnight

agapecarrie

Yes...refer to the commandment. It is "Thall shall not murder". NOT "thou shall not kill".  Has nothing to do with a pope (where did that even come from?). You just repeated yourself about the commandment but did not address anything. You are not proving any points by this.

This has nothing to do with where I live, how many times do I have to state the fact that I agree in the USA the death penalty is not necessary? I don't agree with it here.(In fact, went to a prayer vigil when there was an execution several years ago). It is a red herring remark that has nothing to do with the discussion. Stick to the topic.

I'm stating church teaching.  By stating that one person who is attacking another should not be stopped by force is placing the aggressor's life as more valuable than the innocent, and saying the innocent should not be protected.

To the OP: what matters here is what the catechism says. This is church teaching. As has been stated before, there are varying opinions on how this can be applied, and our popes and bishops have been examples of mercy in asking for the death penalty to stop. This cannot be applied in all times and all circumstances though. (Thinking much larger than 2011 in the western world).

Calypso1977

teh church is not against the death penalty, to my knowledge.

teh difference between death penalty and abortion is that the person on death row has a cahnce to confess his sins to god before death.  an aborted baby has no chance to be baptised and have original sin removed.

im pro-death penalty, but i was shocked to learn of so many people pre-DNA testing that were wrongly convicted.  i think it can only be done in instances where there is 100% solid DNA evidence.

ootmother2

I have a Catholic bible and religious instruction book here.

It is the Protestand church that changed "thou shall not kill" to "thou shall not murder"

NOT the Catholic Church!

Riss91

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_death-penalty?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:a0dd85ce-e57f-4262-809f-93137d572edaPost:15e6fe5d-2057-43b9-bcc7-6dea394821ae">Re: Death Penalty</a>:
[QUOTE]I have a Catholic bible and religious instruction book here. It is the Protestand church that changed "thou shall not kill" to "thou shall not murder" NOT the Catholic Church!
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

calm down... there's no need for this to be hostile.

agapecarrie

I'm not talking about "change"..I'm talking about translation.

hebrew: harag== kill
             ratsah-- murder   (criminal act of killing)

the 10 commandments used ratsah, not harag.

Even in the next chapter, it talks about death penalty.

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_death-penalty?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:a0dd85ce-e57f-4262-809f-93137d572edaPost:ec2c9015-76ad-4f91-a48f-50e511f526df">Re: Death Penalty</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm not talking about "change"..I'm talking about translation. hebrew: harag== kill              ratsah-- murder   (criminal act of killing) the 10 commandments used ratsah, not harag. Even in the next chapter, it talks about death penalty.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

The distinction, if any, between harag and ratsah is far from clear cut and is certainly not the same as our modern distinction between kill and murder.

Really, stop back pedalling!

agapecarrie

There is no back pedalling. That doesn't even make sense. You insist that it is "thou shalt not kill". I'm proving through the translation that is not the original meaning. It is "thou shalt not murder".

It is the difference between kill and murder. In the very next chapter, after the 10 commandments,  there is a possibility of death penalty. God doesn't contradict Himself.

lalaith50

good grief, oot, you accuse her of backpedaling, but you still haven't answered her point about the next chapter talking about the death penalty?!

ETA: you also seem to forget that the OP asked ONLY for official Church teaching, and you have done nothing to contribute to that conversation, other than state your own personal opinion or your own personal interpretation of the Bible.

mica178

GA peach -- I don't believe that I've ever read an official position from the church regarding the death penalty, but I know that John Paul II opposed it as cruel and unnecessary.

http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Apr1999/feature1.asp#F6

I honestly don't understand how a person can be pro-life and pro-death penalty.  Who are we as humans to decide that a person's acts are so heinous as to deserve death?  H works with death row prisoners, and he says that 100% of those he meets have a history of childhood abuse and head injury.  While many people have the same history and never killed, can we judge those who grew up in such horrible circumstances as unworthy to continue to live?

I can see in earlier societies where 24 hour surveillance and electronic monitoring were not possible the death penalty being used to protect society, but nowadays, we in the developed world have maximum security prisons. 

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_death-penalty?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a0dd85ce-e57f-4262-809f-93137d572edaPost:6537e9bc-b4ab-4a19-aa2a-bfdad5d9da61">Re: Death Penalty</a>:
[QUOTE]The death penalty is no and will never be self defense! That one innocent person put to death is just the same as aborting an innocent baby. Go ahead and check the stats of men on Death Row who have been vindicated by newer testing, DNA for one. Killing is killing.  baby or adult
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

To me, someone who is put to death on death row is nowhere near innocent.  They chose to rape/murder/etc.  You do the crime, you are not as innocent and helpless as a fetus, so I am not fond of this argument.
HOWEVER, I do agree with you that life is life.  It is not up to us as humans to judge.  The person that committed the crime(s) WILL be judged at his/her time by God and it is not our duty to say whether someone has the right to live or right to die.  I also think the death penalty is a much easier way out than rotting in prison the rest of your life.
Prisons in general have way too many luxuries IMO, but that is a whole other topic.

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_death-penalty?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:a0dd85ce-e57f-4262-809f-93137d572edaPost:cad58094-5b58-48de-99a8-25768849b2c2">Re: Death Penalty</a>:
[QUOTE] I can see in earlier societies where 24 hour surveillance and electronic monitoring were not possible the death penalty being used to protect society, but nowadays, we in the developed world have maximum security prisons. 
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

And this is the only reason I'm continuing the discussion. In these circumstances, it would be pro-life.... to protect the innocent lives from an aggressor. This is why we have to be careful with terms and using "pro-life" across the board.

I'm just trying to give church teaching here, and this is a reason it is not an absolute...an intrinsic wrong...because it cannot pass over all time and circumstances.

mica178

I was checking out ratsah, and I believe it's killing that is premeditated and unjustified.  Certainly executions are premeditated.  I would argue that in today's modern society (at least in North America and Western Europe), executions are not justified.

ootmother2

mica, stop being rational about this!