michigan to limit welfare

Calypso1977

i usually dont post political stuff here, but at the end of this article, i see that the michican catholic conference does not support this.

http://news.yahoo.com/mich-governor-signs-48-month-welfare-limit-231915012.html

what are people's thoughts on this limit?  im confused by teh article as it says there is a 4 year limit, but then it says that many will lose benefits as of October 1.  while i support the measure, i do think there needs to be a window of more than 3 weeks for people to figure out what they are going to do. 

chelseamb11

For some reason I cannot open this link so I am going to give my generic opinion based on the title of the article.  If you lose your job, I am a firm believer that you should NOT get 4 years to look for another one.  Does it suck? Heck yes.  But people need to be willing to take a job in a lower pay grade or take multiple jobs if necessary to make ends meet in that instance in order to start working up again.  If you are on welfare because of a disability that is out of your control (ex: the lady who makes herself fat on purpose who is too fat to work would not count) then you should be able to receive it for life.  There are too many people out there who cheat the system and stay on welfare so that they don't have to work, and that makes me really angry.

For those who are screwed on Oct 1, I don't think that's right.  I believe that if this is a new system, it should only apply to those who are newly entering the system or have the 48 months start now for everyone who is in it.

catarntina

I don't think I agree with it, per se.  They could have given them till the 1st of the year instead of Oct 1st.  3 weeks is pretty lame when people are dependent upon that money.

Now I don't agree with it because I have a friend who has a 3 year old son.  She works her butt off, currenly working 3 jobs -- they're all part-time because she cannot find full-time work with health benefits.  So she works 3 part-time jobs just to make it.  She went to school and received her bachelor's degree, but cannot get a job pertaining to her degree in the area (she is looking at moving, but that has a lot of risk since she'd be leaving her family who watches her son, etc...).  The baby's father does not pay child support.  There is a court order against him to pay, but he doesn't hold steady jobs or he gets paid under the table to purposely not pay child support.

The state does take her pay into consideration, and her employer's have to report how much money she makes.  They reduce the benefits she receives based on the amount of money she makes, which is perfectly acceptable in my opinion.

I don't think someone in her situation should get their benefits taken away when they are doing everything they possibly can to try to make it on their own.  She does NOT want to leach off the system, and she is not trying to do that.

Now, on the flip-side... when I see people who do work full-time, who have health insurance but still get welfare -- that pisses me off.  This guy DH works with gets welfare for his two children.  His wife manages an apartment complex, so gets to live there RENT FREE.  This guy has a FT job, but goes out and buys iPhones and iPads and PS3 and he smokes 3 packs a day.  Those people should not be collecting benefits.  But it's hard to discriminate between my friend who deserves the benefits vs this loser who does not.

HandBanana

Okay now.  It takes me a bit to talk about this without me going into a heated diatribe as I am very passionate about this but want to get my point across without seeming like just an angry person.

As with any government program, there are people who will misuse it and there are those that genuinely need it.  Who are we to say how someone spends their money? To say that it is because your tax money pays for the programs is incorrect because it is in fact your own tax money that pays for your own unemployement.  This is why you can be denied unemployement when filing because you did not work long enough.

I for one think it is a much larger class issue.  Instead of focusing on the extremely wealthy and the incredibly large gap between the haves and the have nots, we talk about how people on welfare spend their mooney. 

I am much more angry with the extremely rich getting tax cuts than the poor being demonized because they are on foodstamps and buy a flat screen tv.

lalaith50

I'm not terribly opinionated either way about this... In general, I'm usually in favor of people getting *less* government assistance, period, BUT whenever it comes down to individual cases (like catarntina mentioned,) I'm like, yeah, it totally sucks if you can't get a "real" job, cuz you CAN work your butt off and not be able to scrape by! And that's just not right! So, yeah. I dunno.

ellen73

I was quite frankly shocked at some of the responses.

This will devastate the metro Detroit area more than it already is.   Unemployment rates are at 16.7% in the metro Detroit area as of August 2011.  That is not factoring in the number of people who are working dead-end jobs and making minimum wage or less.   

Taking away welfare benefits in an area that is already hurting will frankly turn it into a a 3rd world country.   This will not just effect the welfare class, but the middle class (or what is left of the middle class). And it won't just affect the "lthe lady who makes herself fat on purpose who is too fat to work would not count" as a previous poster mentioned, but countless children and other people as well.

Is the current system perfect? Far from it- but there are reasons the Catholic church is opposed to these actions.   The current system allows for people who are employed by a certain big box store that prides itself on rolling back prices to apply for medicare & medicaid and food stamps (they actually are given instructions of how to fill out the forms during their orientation).   But should we eliminate all aid to to all people b/c the system is broken? Probably not what we are called to work towards as Catholics.   

When I was growing up, homilies during Labor day weekend revolved around the importance of working towards a living wage, which has formally been part of Catholic Social Teaching for 120 years, thanks to Pope Leo XIII.  This is not a new idea and it is something that should be a bipartisan issue.

"Wealthy owners of the means of production and employers must never forget that both divine and human law forbid them to squeeze the poor and wretched for the sake of gain or to profit from the helplessness of others." -Pope Leo XIII

HandBanana

"You cannot claim to worship Jesus in the Tabernacle, if you do not pity Jesus in the slums. . . It is folly -- it is madness -- to suppose that you can worship Jesus in the Sacraments and Jesus on the throne of glory, when you are sweating him in the souls and bodies of his children." -Bishop Frank Weston

Not to argue with anyone but to share this quote even though I think I have shared it before.

I believe this quote is very VERY applicable to this argument.

caitriona87

I have mixed feelings on this. First, I agree with whoever said that if a limit like this were to be enacted, the least they could do is give people more notice than a few weeks; the four years should start now for everybody.

I do think the system is terribly broken, not only because of the abuses, waste, and fraud, but most of all because--does it really respect the dignity of those it purports to help? It may meet their material needs but when it incentivizes NOT working and punishes working, it deprives some people (who may not have had certain ideals instilled in them) of the motivation to better their situation, not only financially but fulfillment-wise. Work is a need of the human person. Like catarntina's friend--she gets reduced benefits in return for working like crazy, whereas the other guy she mentioned lives high on the hog in return for sitting around. That is unjust. I'm no economist so I don't know what the solution is, but that isn't right.

I also need to think we need to work on the strength of the family, first and foremost. I have spent a lot of time in pregnancy centers and a lot of these young people have NO incentive whatsoever to create and maintain a stable family because the government has replaced the father in terms of supporting the mother and children. A culture of promiscuity and disregard for lifelong marriage is both a cause and result of the huge number of people on welfare. (I am not saying this is EVERYONE, but it is a large part of it. Obviously there are other situations at play as well.) Until we reward stable marriages instead of single motherhood, this will not change. I know we need to help the girls in that situation (obviously I would agree to pretty much anything in order to prevent an abortion) but the issue is many of them do not even see a problem with the situation they're in in the first place. It's not "I made a mistake, now I better get my act together to provide a good life for this child and use welfare in the meantime" it's a way of life where these girls come back with their second, third, fourth pregnancies all from different fathers. That needs to be addressed because it creates not only material poverty but spiritual poverty as well. 

HandBanana

I'm sorry, but our society does not celebrate single mothers.  If single mothers were so celebrated there wouldn't be a discussion about removing benefits.  Planned Parenthood would not have lost all government support.  Do not respond with Planned Parenthood does abortions because it is a small fraction of what they do.  They provide women's healthcare.  Instead of cutting funding for a Nascar, our government got rid of funding for women's healthcare.  If single motherhood was rewarded, we wouldn't even be discussing the supposed "welfare queen" you are alluding to.

These people aren't living high on the hog with government benefits.  Trust me.  H and I were on foodstamps for 4 months.  They don't hand it out to just anyone.  You have to be extremely poor and have other circumstances to qualify.

I know these clips are one sided because it is the Daily Show but I do not know how, especially as Catholics, we can talk about those in need and judge them.  Especially relevent is around the 5 minute mark of the second clip. 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/collection/395227/for-richer-not-poorer/394982

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-18-2011/world-of-class-warfare---the-poor-s-free-ride-is-over

Meg1036

Banana and Ellen - you said a lot of things that I think, a lot more eloquently than I can say them.  Thank you.

caitriona87

I'm sorry, I'm not sure where that hostility came from. Nowhere did I say it was the fault of the people in question, nor did I judge them. I made some observations about attitudes I have seen. I spend my own time and money doing what little I can to help them out (not having much of either myself) and yeah, some of it entails directing them to the benefits that are out there and helping them sign up. I don't blame these girls or begrudge them; a lot of them have never been shown any other way of life. I said it was the fault of the culture (i.e. all of us) and the current benefit system. You seriously disagree that the family has broken down over the past fifty years, disproportionately so in lower-income populations? Single parenthood is a really strong corollary with poverty, and has risen dramatically over that same time period, so I don't think it's so out of left field to suggest that it needs to be addressed.

I am indeed going to talk about Planned Parenthood and abortion, since that "small fraction" kills over 330,000 per year (and as Catholics, we believe each of those was a unique human being stamped with the image of God, yes?)  and what a gross misrepresentation of their business that 3% number is--for example, it counts a year's worth of birth control as 12 "services," even if obtained in one visit, abortion brings in 40% of their revenue, and of the pregnant women they "serve" 97.6% have abortions. Oh and if they would've stopped doing abortions, their funding would have stayed intact in some states where they've been defunded. So clearly they care more about doing abortions than about women's health. What's more, their program of flooding our society with contraception is partly responsible for all of this in the first place. Catholics are free to disagree on how to best help the poor but abortion is a nonnegotiable of social teaching.

Calypso1977

I'm sorry, but our society does not celebrate single mothers.  If single mothers were so celebrated there wouldn't be a discussion about removing benefits. 

i disagree.  hollywood in particular loves to glorify out of wedlock pregnancies.  sure, these arent single moms who are on welfare, but they are still single moms.

my husband deals with welfare recipients every day.  they live extremely well.  they may live in run down housing projects, but youd be shocked when you see the inside and the stuff they have.  that's because any income they make is all disposable.  they can afford luxuries my husband and i only dream about having some day.  he has arrested people for dealing drugs out of section 8 apartments. IMO, those people shoudl lose their vouchers (there is about a 7 year wait list here in MA for a section 8 voucher) and they should be given to someone else who truly needs it.  drug dealers do not deserve subsidized housing.  sure, not everyone on welfare is a criminal, but youd be shocked at how many are.

HandBanana

As I said in my first post, this is a subject I am very passionate about and it is very upseting for me to see supposed Catholics questioning and judging those who go without.

I never said that I thought the family structure has dissolved.  There are many more factors to why divorce is more prominent and it is much more complicated than this is why our system is flooded with persons on welfare.

Prior to 1980 and even into the 90s, a husband could rape his wife but it was not defined as rape.  Spousal abuse is still ignored and women are still blamed.  There are much bigger issues than just the family is eroding. 

I'm not even going to touch the Planned Parenthood part because I for one am not a fan because their foundation is in focusing on minorities and targeting low income groups.  I'm merely pointing out that women's health is ignored over a Nascar.  Wouldn't you rather women get their pap, breast exams, menopause treatment, STD tests, etc?  I'm merely pointing out that our government and these talking heads have been incredibly successful in distracting us from the bigger issue.  Why aren't we talking about the idea that women's health care < Nascar?  Instead they have us focused on abortions, which the government funding does not go towards.

Your observations are narrow generalizations.  Yes you did judge them and you made assumptions based on their observed behavior.  You have no idea what is running through these girls heads and to think that they would share their intimate thoughts about their situation with someone who volunteers at their clinic it just isn't going to happen like that.

many of them do not even see a problem with the situation they're in in the first place. It's not "I made a mistake, now I better get my act together to provide a good life for this child and use welfare in the meantime" it's a way of life where these girls come back with their second, third, fourth pregnancies all from different fathers.

I have hated pro-life activists since I was 5.  My mom was driving me somewhere and they were standing outside the hospital with large posters and graphic photos on them.  I passed out in the car.  Not that I can really correlate the two but ever since this incident, I pass out at hospitals, whenever I see blood, or if anyone even talks about blood.

I'm not pro abortion but I'm certainly not pro standing on the side of the road with graphic posters. 

And I have no idea where you are getting these numbers but is it from Bill OReilley or Ann Coulter?

Planned Parenthood is the largest provider of abortions in the U.S.,^[4] from which it derives about $164,154,000, 15% of its annual revenue.^[39]

Also, the number about what percentage receive abortions is a bit sticky.  You have to think that the women that go to Planned Parenthood are already planning on receiving an abortion.

HandBanana

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_michigan-limit-welfare?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:c094f75c-d184-4d16-a8ae-57528513f42bPost:838c2b61-ca5e-4700-87db-b8eb4df49600">Re: michigan to limit welfare</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm sorry, but our society does not celebrate single mothers.  If single mothers were so celebrated there wouldn't be a discussion about removing benefits.  i disagree.  hollywood in particular loves to glorify out of wedlock pregnancies.  sure, these arent single moms who are on welfare, but they are still single moms. my husband deals with welfare recipients every day.  they live extremely well.  they may live in run down housing projects, but youd be shocked when you see the inside and the stuff they have.  that's because any income they make is all disposable.  they can afford luxuries my husband and i only dream about having some day.  he has arrested people for dealing drugs out of section 8 apartments. IMO, those people shoudl lose their vouchers (there is about a 7 year wait list here in MA for a section 8 voucher) and they should be given to someone else who truly needs it.  drug dealers do not deserve subsidized housing.  sure, not everyone on welfare is a criminal, but youd be shocked at how many are.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

You can not compare hollywood's depiction of single mothers (who are still shown as harlots and tramps) with the reality.  Even Teen Mom portrays them as idiots deserving everything that comes to them.

I'm not sure on the state by state basis but most who are charged with dealing drugs lose any and all state funding/money/benefits.  Also, they are no longer allowed to live in low income housing.

FYI if a drug dealer gets out of jail and decides he wants to turn his life around he can not even get school loans.  How can this be right when we bailed out all of these banks who mismanaged their funds and Enron and BP can get away with all these things?  Instead we focus on this incredibly small population of have nots that misuse the system.  I'm just baffled.

caitriona87

I know you didn't say the family structure has eroded; I said that, and your answer implied that you disagreed. I asked whether you really don't think that comes into play here, a bit incredulously. Spousal abuse may play a role, but I doubt it's solely responsible for a quadrupling of the divorce rate (as measured per 1000 women) since the 1950s. Not to mention the number of people who no longer get married in the first place.

I got my numbers from PP's own annual reports; the math is there for anyone to do. Those figures were from 2008 and take into account the average cost of an abortion. I'm not sure what either Bill O'Reilly or Ann Coulter has to do with this, as I'm not a fan of either one and don't appreciate being put in that box.

It's a shame that I even have to say this, but yes, I agree with you that Nascar funding over women's health is awful. However, PP =/= women's health. The "talking heads" don't have me focused on abortion, Christ does. Who else are "the least of these" if not the unborn? And if gov't funds go towards staff, buildings, power, etc that is used for abortion, then it is subsidizing abortion. If PP is devoted to women's health, why is their CEO's background entirely comprised of political lobbying? Wouldn't an organization dedicated to women's health have, oh, I don't know, a former hospital administrator or something?

I'm sorry you have had bad experiences with pro-life activists. "Hate" is a pretty strong word though especially since so many (and I definitely don't mean myself here, but others I've met) are very faithful Catholics. There are a lot of other things to do besides using graphic images. Most of us are just trying to do our small part do defend the modern day orphan and widow, as St. James tells us is true religion. The Church tells us that the sanctity of human life is the first and foundational principle of social justice, and we have no ground to stand on if we look the other way on abortion supposedly to help the poor. It won't work. All other human rights flow from the right to life.

As for the women I see--if they aren't truthful with me, there's not much I can do. I assume they're being honest in what they tell me. I don't see what choice I have but to take them at their word. As far as this argument goes, would it really be better for me to say "everything I've seen and heard has given me a certain impression....but they're probably lying?" No thanks, I will assume honesty until it's proven otherwise. I will admit that I fail at charity, every day, with plenty of people, but I'm working on it.

MopsieB

Pretty heavy stuff for a wedding website! Here's the thing: MOST of the commenters (myself included) have no experience with welfare personally. So, we don't REALLY know (and shouldn't claim to) what it's like to receive those benefits. From what I have read, it's not at as cut and dried as people think it is. I'm not going to cast stones. The bottom line is, society created government because we need an organized process to help support all of us with our daily lives. It's a fact. Today, in this country, we have so many people who are out of work and in debt over medical costs or school loans. The rate of inflation has been pretty steady, at about 2% a year. Compare that with tuition rates, which DOUBLE every 10 years! Meanwhile, health care costs are not capped at all- these companies can deny for no reason and charge whatever they want. For many, many people, Planned Parenthood offers a safe and affordable place to receive preventative care. People who don't have medical insurance drive up the cost of health care for everyone else when they get sick. Not being able to afford preventative care assures that society will continue to bear the burden of these costs. I don't understand why Republicans, most of whom claim to be SOOOO Christian, can't seem to appreciate that. This "every man for himself" mentality is not a compassionate stance. The middle class is being priced out of being able to afford anything and if continue to waste our time judging those who have even less than we do, we will become the poorest nation on earth- cash poor, insurance poor and morally bankrupt. Pro-life activists fixate on ONE issue, when there are so many other critical problems. What about torture? What about senseless wars? What about a lack of affordable health care? What about a voice for the poor? What about in-vitro and other artificial means of conception? What about overpopulation? What about truly caring about others and considering a different point of view? I just got married two months ago and I'm so happy that my husband and I have shared values. But we seem to be in the minority, particularly in a Catholic church that has banned contraception and is outspoken about abortion but has largely remained silent about all of the other injustices and indignities in our world today.