NFP help - charts not making sense

mcdol3

Because I'm paranoid I chart on paper, on TCOYF.com and fertility friend.
I'm trying to get the hang of it all since it's only my 4th cycle off BCP
These two programs are saying two different O days.




When I did my paper chart, the O day as far as I could tell was the same as the FF one.

Opinions?

catarntina

I'm not that familiar with FF -- I use TCOYF program and paper.

It's possible you ovulated on Day 19 of the TCOYF chart, actually.  You had so many X's that it screwed up your coverline.  If you count the X's in your coverline, it makes your temp shift on day 19.  Why did you have so many X's?  If you consider day 19 it makes your Luteal Phase 12 days, which is normal.

Day 19 also coincides with the MOST fertile days and cervix position. I'm going to go with day 19.

Can you redo the TCOYF chart by counting those temperatures?  There should be a way to turn off the override.  I think those X's should count.

EDIT:  I read Feb 16 as Day 16.  I edited to correct.

mcdol3

I had disturbed sleep patterns. Woke up twice in the night on the days that are X'd.

I've clicked the option to include those temps.  Here's what the chart looks like.

catarntina

Your coverline should be at 97.4 counting the X's again.

Looks like Peak Day was day 16 (determined by cervical fluid and position).  But temp shift did not occur until day 19. 

Since TCOYF is conservative, it will give you day 19, but restart the temp count since your temp dropped below the CL.  If you X that one that dropped below (day 20), the chart makes more sense.

It's concerning that you didn't have a temp shift until 3 days after Peak day.  Do you normally have issues with slow climbing progesterone?

mica178

I have two thoughts:

1. Do all of your cycles look like this, or was this just an off month because of your sleeping habits?  Did you input all of your information into FF to see if it could average tihngs out for you?

2. If you really have irregular sleep patterns that are interfering with your ability to chart, have you considered another method of NFP?  I think I remember agapecarrie recommending Creighton for people who do shiftwork or have other issues where checking the basal body temp would be hard.

mcdol3

thank you so much for helping me out. I'm completely new to this. This is only my 4th cycle charting after BCP.
Cycle 1 - 44 days long. No O at all. I don't have a chart here and I can't access it on TCOYF
Here it is in FF




Cycle 2 - FF, TCOYF



Cycle 3 - FF, TCOYF




And Cycle 4 was above in the OP.

mcdol3

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:46ffbb48-73ed-4fbc-ad6d-d103d8555363">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]I have two thoughts: 1. Do all of your cycles look like this, or was this just an off month because of your sleeping habits?  Did you input all of your information into FF to see if it could average tihngs out for you?
2. If you really have irregular sleep patterns that are interfering with your ability to chart, have you considered another method of NFP?  I think I remember agapecarrie recommending Creighton for people who do shiftwork or have other issues where checking the basal body temp would be hard.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

1. cycles displayed in charts. FF and TCOYF

2. I don't usually have irregular sleep patterns. I go to bed and wake up at the same time every day. I'm not on shift work or anything.
Sometimes I have trouble sleeping and I wake up twice in the night but it's rare.
Some of the disturbed temps (X's) are from the nights we have a glass of wine.
My teaching couple said to include everything for the first few cycles so I can see what really messes up the temps and what doesn't.

doctabroccoli

I'm not charting yet, but have you looked into the Billings method?  That one takes your secretions into consideration, and given that I regularly notice a difference in those (ugh, sorry TMI), I'm probably going with that method.  Cause, yeah, I do like to drink wine at night, but not consistently.

mica178

I've been charting for a bit now too, and I've found that alcohol and sleep haven't significantly affected the way my chart appears once I've ovulated, so I feel confident that we can keep on using NFP without concern for unintended pregnancy.

I'd probably say that if the programs give you different results you should be very conservative and treat both the predicted ovulation days as dangerous times and give yourself the standard buffers around both.  However, I also want to say that I would probably just pick one graphing method (TCOYF or FF but not both) and use it rather than feel confused by two different programs.  From a scientific standpoint, that's actually the way to go, counterintuitive as it may seem.

mcdol3

I was trying to figure out which program I liked better.
I do paper copies at home and would like to use that instead, but I'm an IT geek so I like having the online capabilities.

I still have no idea if lack of sleep or a glass of wine really makes a difference.
When I read TCOYF, it said you should have 3 consecutive hours of sleep before taking your temp, or it would be considered disturbed. when I wake up at night, it's usually around 3 - 4am, and I wake up at 6am.

catarntina

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:6da3d041-f8aa-4dfa-9434-ecbfdd2893c7">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]I was trying to figure out which program I liked better. I do paper copies at home and would like to use that instead, but I'm an IT geek so I like having the online capabilities.<strong> I still have no idea if lack of sleep or a glass of wine really makes a difference. When I read TCOYF, it said you should have 3 consecutive hours of sleep before taking your temp, or it would be considered disturbed. when I wake up at night, it's usually around 3 - 4am, and I wake up at 6am.</strong>
Posted by mcdol3[/QUOTE]

So my personal experience is that alcohol has a much bigger effect on me then lack of sleep, or increased sleep (like on weekends).  One glass of wine/beer/whatever usually doesn't have an effect.  But if I get drunk then go straight to sleep, it definitely rises my temperature by 3-4 tenths -- which could be construed as ovulation if I drink at the wrong time of the month.

Sleeping patterns don't seem to have that much difference to me personally.  I will notice that my temp is slightly higher (1-2 tenths) on the weekends, but only sometimes. I often wake up in the middle of the night (usually around 5) and the alarm goes off at 7. I just take my temp at 7, but I make sure I don't get out of bed.  It seems to be consistent.

For the temps that you marked with X's for glasses of wine, I wouldn't mark them off.  I would count them, since they are below the coverline.  You can put in your notes for each day "Glass of wine with dinner" so you can determine if there is a pattern, but don't discount those temperatures unless it really affects your coverline.

How long were you on BCP before starting to chart?

catarntina

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:211162b7-adfa-47a3-b783-3c8aa4ba3895">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm not charting yet, but have you looked into the Billings method?  That one takes your secretions into consideration, and given that I regularly notice a difference in those (ugh, sorry TMI), I'm probably going with that method.  Cause, yeah, I do like to drink wine at night, but not consistently.
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

I don't know anyone who uses Billings Ovulation Method. It's recognized as a legit method of NFP.  Just most people I know who don't use sympto-thermal use Creighton Method, which is a "standardized derivative" of BOM.  Have you looked at Creighton?  I'm just curious why you chose BOM over CM?

(I don't know much about either, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion if you researched them)

doctabroccoli

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:f22c2166-30de-432d-809c-861be6f66039">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP help - charts not making sense : I don't know anyone who uses Billings Ovulation Method. It's recognized as a legit method of NFP.  Just most people I know who don't use sympto-thermal use Creighton Method, which is a "standardized derivative" of BOM.  Have you looked at Creighton?  I'm just curious why you chose BOM over CM? (I don't know much about either, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion if you researched them)
Posted by catarntina[/QUOTE]

I have not looked at Creighton.  I just know Billings because we had to go to a separate NFP class for the St. Louis Archdiocese outside of pre-cana, and the class we went to was for BOM.  I may have to check out Creighton.  I just know I'm not big on the sympto-thermal.

mcdol3

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:885b28ab-79fa-4dbc-8e4c-dcba6e15215d">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP help - charts not making sense : <strong> How long were you on BCP before starting to chart?</strong>
Posted by catarntina[/QUOTE]

I was on it for 10 years. Went on at 16 for acne.
My cycles got really weird over the past 2 years and after trying several other BCP's I said to heck with it and stopped taking them. found an NFP course and started charting. FI is completely on board and happy that I'm less cranky and worried all the time.

bibliophile2010

Docta, I am in the middle of my Creighton class and there are several others on here who use it as well. Around here, talking about CM is not really considered TMI, as long as the discussion is about NFP.

So far I am really happy with it, because of its medical connections (spotting issues now rather than when I try to conceive), though it is not yet being put into practice. Billings is uncommon around here, but I know that a couple of ladies over at the Living the Sacrament forums prefer it to Creighton. It is a bit more expensive for the basic classes, but I think it is worth it.

Andplusalso, no temping was a big positive for me!

catarntina

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:296a7ea9-d6b4-454a-9e87-421558636c8f">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP help - charts not making sense : I was on it for 10 years. Went on at 16 for acne. My cycles got really weird over the past 2 years and after trying several other BCP's I said to heck with it and stopped taking them. found an NFP course and started charting. FI is completely on board and happy that I'm less cranky and worried all the time.
Posted by mcdol3[/QUOTE]

This could be why your cervical fluid is so whacky, and why your temps are slow to rise, thus making your chart not make sense.  The longer you're on BCP, the longer it takes for your body to adjust to being off of it.  If your cervical fluid keeps looking whacky like that after 1 or 2 more cycles, I'd schedule an appointment with your GYN.  Something simple, like taking a multi-vitamin every day, could really help with cervical fluid and temperatures to have them fit a more normal pattern.  Definitely check with a doctor if your charts keep looking like this, and ask them before taking vitamins.

The good news is that you have CF and you are ovulating, so the side effects of the hormonal BCP is probably reversible.

If temperature is confusing, don't track it.  Use Billings or Creighton.  CF is the main sign of fertility, temperature is a secondary sign.

linzluvsgzuss

Like PP, even if your sleep patterns are pretty regular, maybe doing CM will help. I do CM and I love it for NFP. I've been trying to add the basal temp thing in there for greater accuracy and to see if I've been double-peaking (yay for twins?) but I never get 8 hours of sleep, most of the time not even close to it, and even though I've been getting up at the same time every morning to take my temp, I'm never asleep at the same time so it has been real whacky for me. Good luck!

mcdol3

Catarntina - I wish my doc understood charting. there's no NFP docs in Calgary.
My current doc, when I said I was going to start using NFP rather than BCP said I'd be pregnant within 2 months. She's not on board at all and has no idea how good charting is.

bibliophile2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:cc9ce08f-4301-434a-b446-3fe6b1cb6006">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]Like PP, even if your sleep patterns are pretty regular, maybe doing CM will help. I do CM and I love it for NFP. I've been trying to add the basal temp thing in there for greater accuracy and <strong>to see if I've been double-peaking (yay for twins?)</strong> but I never get 8 hours of sleep, most of the time not even close to it, and even though I've been getting up at the same time every morning to take my temp, I'm never asleep at the same time so it has been real whacky for me. Good luck!
Posted by linzluvsgzuss[/QUOTE]

Remember double-peak does not mean double ovulation. I just means that your body's first attempt at ovulation was stopped due to stress or illness or whatever. Releasing more than one egg is rare, but when it does happen, it is still within the "fertile window" before progesterone takes over from the first ovulatory event.

catarntina

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:480b540b-d963-4af0-829f-7813fa325909">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]Catarntina - I wish my doc understood charting. there's no NFP docs in Calgary. My current doc, when I said I was going to start using NFP rather than BCP said I'd be pregnant within 2 months. She's not on board at all and has no idea how good charting is.
Posted by mcdol3[/QUOTE]

That's very unfortunate.  Is there someone at your church that you could talk to about getting a recommendation for a better doctor that's more in line with your preferences?  In the meantime, I'd recommend reading "Fertility, Cycles, and Nutrition" by Marilyn Shannon.  Marilyn Shannon is a member of CCL and her book was given to us in our CCL class. It has a lot of helpful tips on how to correct irregularities in your charts by diet or vitamin supplements.

TCOYF goes into some of it briefly, but Marilyn Shannon's book is more detailed.

newlyseliski

I'm using CM, so can't say that I could offer much insight regarding your chart!  Mine is just rows of stickers   I do really appreciate that I don't need to have consistent sleep patterns for it, because I don't and would probably utterly fail at sympto-thermal. 

However, I did an NFP doc search for Alberta, and a few came up on this site!  It looks like one is Billings and one is Sympto-Thermal.  You may have already contacted them, though... only 3 came up.

http://onemoresoul.com/nfp_by_state/AB

clearheavens

I was just going to add that if you're a member of the Couple to Couple league, which is $35/yr, there's a lot of benefits I think that will be helpful to you.  You can:

• -send your charts electronically to get questions answered
• -get a subscription to their mag Family Foundations (I love it, I read it cover to cover, it's very down-to-earth and fun)
• -attend a refresher NFP course anytime that year

The last one requires that there's a CCL class near you but the other two doesn't matter where you live.

http://www.ccli.org/

linzluvsgzuss

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:d8579993-532f-48b9-ad94-92691d3cd8c8">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP help - charts not making sense : Remember double-peak does not mean double ovulation. I just means that your body's first attempt at ovulation was stopped due to stress or illness or whatever. Releasing more than one egg is rare, but when it does happen, it is still within the "fertile window" before progesterone takes over from the first ovulatory event.
Posted by bibliophile2010[/QUOTE]

This is why I'm glad we have started to early in learning...so much to keep straight in my mind. Thanks for the clarification. I have fraternal twins in my family so there was something going on in my charts that our NFP trainer thought I might be ovulating twice..at least some times? So far, the basal Temp thing has been pretty useless other than disrupting my ability to sleep haha.

bibliophile2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-charts-not-making-sense?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:ce2d1cdf-1692-4fbe-bcee-65f43699c283Post:5323e54d-70c4-4ac3-ab3d-9eda35d84e10">Re: NFP help - charts not making sense</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP help - charts not making sense : This is why I'm glad we have started to early in learning...so much to keep straight in my mind. Thanks for the clarification. I have fraternal twins in my family so there was something going on in my charts that our NFP trainer thought I might be ovulating twice..at least some times? So far, the basal Temp thing has been pretty useless other than disrupting my ability to sleep haha.
Posted by linzluvsgzuss[/QUOTE]

That's interesting. I guess I can see it being potential if the peaks are very, very close together. I'm just starting myself, but from what I know about women's health/reproductive system, something like that would have to be really rare because of the hormonal shift. I would love to continue hearing about what you and your NFP instructor finally decide.