Public holding Catholics to a higher standard?

danij30

Hello. I'm just a lurker, but had an interesting discussion with some friends and wanted some more thoughts on it. Sorry for the length!

One friend calls herself a "Liberal Catholic". She believes that the faith life she experienced while living in Latin America for a few years is the (for lack of a better word..) "best" version of Catholicism. In her view, the most imporant aspects of the faith are emphasized and lesser aspects are downplayed in that culture. So she seeks to continue that version in her life, which means she is "picking and choosing" pieces of Catholicism to follow and pieces to disregard.

A non-religious friend (never practiced Catholicism) errupted in anger over this. Calling her horrible names and screaming that there is "No such thing as a 'Liberal Catholic!'" His view is that Catholics must make unreasonable efforts to follow every single piece of doctrine and belief in order to be allowed to call him/herself "Catholic". If you pick and choose, you are no longer a Catholic.

I was struck by the impossibly high standard that he (the public and media as well) set for Catholics. But other faiths are not expected to live by the same standards. In his view, Catholic women that use birth control pills are not truly Catholic. But a Jewish man that eats a non-kosher meal is still Jewish. And a Muslim woman that misses one of her five daily prayers can still call herself Muslim.

What are your thoughts?? Is he just misinformed about Catholicism and religion in general? Have you experienced judgment when going against your faith...no matter how small a discrepancy? Has Catholic become the Voldemort of religions in discussions with people of other faiths?

chelseamb11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_public-holding-catholics-to-a-higher-standard?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d1f20841-ba36-4694-8787-fd4a90564f09Post:2f4f2888-5b94-4af3-a131-e2ed4c065c2e">Public holding Catholics to a higher standard?</a>:
[QUOTE]Hello. I'm just a lurker, but had an interesting discussion with some friends and wanted some more thoughts on it. Sorry for the length! One friend calls herself a "Liberal Catholic". She believes that the faith life she experienced while living in Latin America for a few years is the (for lack of a better word..) "best" version of Catholicism. In her view, the most imporant aspects of the faith are emphasized and lesser aspects are downplayed in that culture. So she seeks to continue that version in her life, which means she is "picking and choosing" pieces of Catholicism to follow and pieces to disregard. A non-religious friend (never practiced Catholicism) errupted in anger over this. Calling her horrible names and screaming that there is "No such thing as a 'Liberal Catholic!'" <strong>His view is that Catholics must make unreasonable efforts to follow every single piece of doctrine and belief in order to be allowed to call him/herself "Catholic". If you pick and choose, you are no longer a Catholic. I was struck by the impossibly high standard that he (the public and media as well) set for Catholics. But other faiths are not expected to live by the same standards. In his view, Catholic women that use birth control pills are not truly Catholic. But a Jewish man that eats a non-kosher meal is still Jewish. And a Muslim woman that misses one of her five daily prayers can still call herself Muslim. What are your thoughts??</strong> Is he just misinformed about Catholicism and religion in general? Have you experienced judgment when going against your faith...no matter how small a discrepancy? Has Catholic become the Voldemort of religions in discussions with people of other faiths?
Posted by danij30[/QUOTE]

This is really a really interesting thought and I think can be tied into the conversation the other day about Christian vs Catholic.
Is this guy Catholic? Just curious.

I do see both sides of the coin TBH.  There are parts of me that get a little angry/ffended when I see someone who identifies as a Catholic doing something very blatantly against the religion with no shame.  For example, I was at the gym around the time the HHS mandate was announced and a woman on the elliptical next to me (Catholic) was arguing with a friend of hers (man-non Catholic) who was on a machine in front of her.  Ironically, the man was telling her what a bad idea it was, and she was saying it's not so bad because pretty much "all Catholic women, including herself, use birth control".  It made me so frustrated and I had to fight allll of my urges to chime in and be like "UM...excuse me?"  Every time I see her I think, "I can't believe she calls herself Catholic".  I'll admit it. I'm totally guilty of that.

But then I calm down and realize it is not my place to judge.  The only thing you can do for someone is love them, gently (if possible) guide them to/inform them of the truth, and pray for them.  To me, (Catholicism aside) you can identify with any religion you wish.  I think the biggest thing that determines your religion is how you feel about Jesus (or another prophet) and his role in starting the Church.  Most people who choose Catholicism don't do it because it's pretty or out of chance.  Most people (and I could be totally wrong, but it seems nice in my head lol) choose it because they truly believe THIS is the church that Jesus handed down to his disciples and it continues to be so today.

I believe that part of identifying with any religion is (at least publicly) being a witness to that religion and a good example of it.  Back to the story of the lady at the gym.  I think the reason I was so upset with her is that she was literally trying to convince this guy that Catholicism needs to "liberalize" itself and nobody really follows all the rules (and SHE was the Catholic one!).  It's misconceptions like this that make non-Catholics think the Church is behind the times because it asks too much of its parishoners and that not very many of its members even agree with its rules.

In the end, we aren't the ones who can judge.  We can love and guide, but we cannot judge.  Idk how I feel though about deciding if someone is truly "Catholic" or not. I think in the end, that is up to God and not to us.  I think there are a lot of Catholics in denial who think the things they do are okay.  But in the end, it's all about praising God, doing his will, and getting into Heaven.  You identifying yourself Catholic isn't going to get you into Heaven.  It's your actions and your faith that get you into Heaven.

Calypso1977

well, there are two groups of "liberal" or what i call "cafeteria" catholics.

the first group are the ones that are completely ignorant and/or have received bad advice from their priest.  these folks honestly dont realize they may be living their life or doing some action that goes against church teaching.  a good example is IVF - many do not realize this is against church teaching and they do it, oblivious.

the second group are hte ones who know full well that their actions are wrong, btu they are choosing to go against church teaching and select which things they wish to follow.  BC users is a good example. 

are the standards high and near impossible to follow?  sure.  does even the best catholic follow everything to a T?  maybe, maybe not.  but the strong catholics are always aware of their sins, confess regularly, and are constantly trying to avoid sin and keep their behavior in check.  

at the end of the day, only God knows what's in your heart and conscience.  only he will know if youve engaged in behaviour out of ignorance or out of defiance.

agapecarrie

The comparison of "practice" is off. Using birth control is a serious sin. It's grave matter and is part of the underlying belief of marriage.

Eating kosher or a muslim prayer is "discipline". 

The Catholic faith has doctrines to be distinguished from discipline. Doctrine is the trinity, Mary's assumption, etc. Those you have to believe.

Discipline is what the church sets forth for us to do: meatless lent fridays, for example. Yes, we are supposed to obey our church, and its a sin to disobey, but there is nothing intrinsically wrong with eating meat on a friday (in and of itself). 

Jasmine&Rajah

There is NO SUCH THING AS . . . "just" a lurker.  ;-)  Glad you've posted!

This is, of course, a rather sticky topic, although I don't think it should be.  We have the Catechism that outlines our faith, and ninety-nine percent of the "difficult beliefs" are covered there, so it's certainly not that the explanations aren't available.  And I certainly believe that every aspect of the faith matters, just as every person within the Body of the Church matters.

Granted, there is always something more to learn, and always a way to love Christ better.  No one should just "blindly" follow a religion.  When we are discerning what we believe, we must ask questions and demand the answers - and pray for clarity in our hearts and our minds.  (Okay, there are things that are considered to be Sacred Mystery - "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts," - but that's not usually what the debates on Catholicism are about.) 

Myself, I become very passionate about this issue.  Choosing to be ANY religion is no laughing matter - and having chosen to be Christian Catholic, I believe with my entire heart that I should honor, respect and do the best I can to live out our beliefs.  It's what the Mother of God said - "Do whatever He tells you."  It's what our Savior Himself said - "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."  Is it easy, all of the time?  No - but we all can remember what the disciples endured!  They said to one another, "This is a difficult teaching; who can listen to it?”  They asked Christ, "Who, then, can be saved?"  And He answered that for God, all things were possible.  If we try on our own, we're certainly going to fall.

I'm baffled as to why your non-religious friend would react so dramatically and unkindly. (Maybe he is hearing a calling in his own heart and is greatly confused by it - who knows?)   I can't speak to the practices of an individual who is Jewish or Muslim, because I don't feel qualified to.  I can only try to meet the standards of my own religion and be a good example of a Catholic.

Sigh . . . I've gone on long enough and I have the feeling that I'm about to start talking in circles.  I'm sure I'm going to review this and wish that I could have said things better.  But this is the last thing I want to add:

If you're here, and you're frustrated with the teachings of the Church, perhaps feeling that you'll never be able to follow them all, please don't give up.  Research all the apologetics that you can get your hands on.  Read the writings of the early Church fathers.  Remind yourself that only the One was perfect, and that we all struggle - but demand the best from yourself, because that's what He deserves. 

Most importantly, keep His Word close to your heart.

As a result of this, many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”

Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.  We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

agapecarrie

I also wanted to mention...all of the teachings are interwoven together. One cannot be in place without the other, because if it did, it would break down everything in between. Believe it or not, birth control is connected to the Assumption of Mary, connected to the Eucharist, connected to Confession.

Riss91

I tend to think that Catholics are so often targeted or criticized because our doctrine renders sinful much of what today's society upholds as "ideal" or "normal". So, most people feel personally attacked or insulted by it.

I definitely see both sides of the coin - the idea that "all Catholics" go against the Church doctrine on these hot topics (ie, birth control) - as well as the idea that "you aren't Catholic" if you don't uphold every single piece of doctrine perfectly.

I often think the media does distort what the Church's focus is in order to shame it and make money. I think that is completely unfair. Catholics are the sole group blamed for many ideas that are equally shared amongst many religions.

In some ways I see it as a positive challenge to us - to live the faith, express its Truths to others in caring and thoughtful way, be an example of charity and kindness - and thwart the efforts of the media/society to paint eveything we do and believe in a bad light.

Resa77

I find myself getting annoyed when Catholics who knowingly don't follow their faith find it necessary to be the voice of Catholics.  I think some people justify their own disobedience by convincing themselves "everyone's doing it."  See, I can respect and understand a Catholic who says "I don't understand/agree with this teaching, and therefore I don't really follow it.  I still go to Mass and I still pray, and I'm comfortable with that.  But I acknowledge I'm not the best Catholics."  I have friends like that...they use BC or live with a sig other before marriage, but they never try to pretend that they're model Catholics, or like their straying should justify anyone else straying.  t's the people who say "I use BC, so it's ok.  I'm a good Catholic" who make me angry!

That said, I think the official teaching is that unless you actually denounce the Catholic Church, you are always Catholic after having received the sacraments of initiation.  So just because someone "picks and chooses" doesn't mean they aren't Catholic.

MedStudent13

^^ Exactly. There are a lot of issues in the Catholic faith that take a lot of thought and prayer to understand completely, and as long as they acknowledge that they don't understand, that is fine. 

erin5286

I see what the OP is saying about the "higher standard" that many people seem to hold Catholics to - I think it's a combination of the way the media distorts some of the Catholic teachings so that many people aren't really aware of what the Church actually teaches, as well as a view that the Catholic church just has more "rules" than other religions, or is much more strict.  I've noticed that even amongst my own friends it can be hard to discuss religion, as so many of them are TOTALLY misinformed on Catholic teachings.

While it does bother me that people (in general) make judgments about a Catholic and/or the Catholic faith based on a mistaken understanding of the faith and its teachings, what bothers me more is the view that if a person isn't following every teaching perfectly, they must not really be a Catholic. 

I'm certainly not perfect, will probably always have questions about various teachings, and am working on strengthening my faith.  Still, I'll always identify as Catholic and will keep striving to do better. As someone mentioned above, it's really up to God in the end to determine whether I did my best or not.

monkeysip

I agree with Calypso about the distinction between someone who is trying to follow their faith, but they still sin (don't we all) and is still ignorant or confused about some of the Church's teachings and the person who has been taught the Church's teachings but rejects them out of pride ("I know better than the Church").  I would say that the former is much more of a Catholic than the latter.

But I also agree with Resa that in a certain sense, "once Catholic, always a Catholic."  Once you're baptized Catholic, you are connected to the Church in an irreversible way.  You may definitely fall out of communion with the faith, but you can't fully break that connection.

danij30

Thanks for all your thoughts!

I will disclose a little background.... I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school through high school then went on to a very large very public state university. I am very passionate about the education I received at the Catholic schools. It was exceptional in all areas--academics, extra curriculars, and faith formation. It gave me the knowledge, critical thinking skills, and time to reflect and determine that Catholicism is not what I believe. I do not struggle with it. I am extrememly confident in my decision.

However, because I had such an incredible experience growing up in the Church and in the school system, I am still very sensitive to attacks on Catholicism. I stand up on behalf of the Church, my schools, and all followers whenever I can because I hear so much misinformation spewed from the mouths of so-called "educated" people. Last week, a brand new acquaintance told me that my parents gave me a "learning disorder" by sending me to Catholic school. He got an earful from me.

I can agree with Resa. If there is a teaching or practice someone disagrees with, and after carefully considering the consequences (both here on earth and in final judgment), is comfortable willingly going against the Church, who are we to stop them or pass judgment about who/what they are?. The best way I have heard it described is like a family. There will always be members or traditions you don't get along with. But that doesn't change the core or your love for one another.

So in the end, while I could not, and will not, disregard my personal beliefs on an abundance of social/human rights issues. I will not fault or judge someone who finds more good than disagreement in any religion. You can be what you want. Whatever helps you get through the day and through this life. Just be kind. That's my two cents.

caitriona87

I just wanted to add one point that I did not see mention above that may play into this issue—somewhat unique to Catholicism is the importance of authority. We believe that Jesus Christ gave teaching authority to his apostles and their successors and that this authority would last until the Second Coming (for which there is much scriptural and historical evidence but I will not delve into that here.) Because of that, the Catholic Faith is something of an “all or nothing” proposition—either the pope and the bishops do have that teaching authority, or they do not. If they do, then whatever they teach in union across time and space is protected from error by the Holy Spirit. It follows that if you accept this doctrine of the teaching authority of the Church (Magisterium) that one cannot pick and choose which pieces are true. The truth of all the rest follows from that assumption. Now perfect obedience of course is hard to come by, but the teaching of the Church really does come as a total package both in the sense agape mentioned above (the interconnectedness of the doctrines and how many of them necessarily follow from others) but also in this other sense that we first ask whether the Church is a trustworthy source. If She is, it only follows logically to accept everything that She teaches. The teachings that are considered hard in our day (usually regarding sex) come from the same authoritative source as things like the divinity of Christ, the necessity of forgiveness, humility, etc.

jenjlgsings

Not much to add because everyone has covered this with such great detail.  I forget the exact quote, but this reminds me of when Fulton Sheen said something along the lines of very few people in the world hate the CAtholic church, but thousands hate what they believe to be the Catholic church."

I know I am butchering the quote, but it is very true.  Even some of my Catholic friends, due to poor catechesis have total misunderstandings of what Catholics actually believe.