NFP question

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-question-5?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d4e814a2-a8cf-4cdd-98cb-c88a09292f57Post:0b617294-d31f-458c-ba81-7b3b03c46143">Re: NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]So it appears we have one example where one of the worst side-effects of birth control pills as birth control pills, how the effect the uterine lining so it can't support a pregnancy, is a good "side effect" for a debilitating disease that, again, can destroy fertility if left untreated. But the hormone therapy for it is undignified. Makes an adult female less a woman. Bah! This is lots of why I'd rather be thought a damned contraceptrix than a cursed barren woman. (And it's not like anyone but I and my doctor can tell the difference once I'm married.) We need to move past a society where a person's dignity is caught up in their biology and ability to reproduce.
Posted by ElisabethJoanne[/QUOTE]

and this is the problem. A women's dignity IS by the very fact that she is a woman...and what makes a woman.  We are not souls trapped in a body, we are embodied spirits... inseparable. Its not just "biology".
(And no, I'm not saying those who are infertile are less of a woman).

ElisabethJoanne

I'm not angry. Not at the people here.

I'd also argue destroy is just a bigger form of going against. Dignity being thought something always-good, if we're willing to lessen it, what prevents us from destroying it? We're still attacking something good, maybe for a higher purpose, but maybe there's no higher purpose.

If this were a spoken conversation, I'd ask my clarifying questions, then follow-up with argument. As there's a delay, to move things along, I try to present, "If you're saying X, I argue Y. If you're saying Z, I agree, or I argue A."

One more thing: High doses of B vitamins can cause severe nausea and vomiting.

ElisabethJoanne

I still honestly don't understand, agape. An infertile woman, either through age or severe disease or injury, is still just as much a woman. Why then is it against the dignity of a woman to disrupt her feritility for a lesser disease? Or how do we tell, apart from a medical determination, what counts as a sufficiently severe disease it's worth disrupting fertility?

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-question-5?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d4e814a2-a8cf-4cdd-98cb-c88a09292f57Post:911160f0-4309-4622-979a-e101b52250c3">Re: NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]I still honestly don't understand, agape. An infertile woman, either through age or severe disease or injury, is still just as much a woman. Why then is it against the dignity of a woman to disrupt her feritility for a lesser disease? Or how do we tell, apart from a medical determination, what counts as a sufficiently severe disease it's worth disrupting fertility?
Posted by ElisabethJoanne[/QUOTE]

As I said, I'm not saying an infertile woman is less than a woman, you made a comment about getting past biology...I was addressing that. Women are the pinnacle of creation, and fertility is not a disease. Shutting down a working system (or those with endo, etc...struggling to work...the body is still trying, but its difficult) is not the answer. As I said, there is a long list of docs who have alternatives in healing rather throwing the pill at everything.
 You are arguing from a premise that isn't completely true. The pill itself causes infertility, breast cancer, blood clots, etc. You're not helping endo by possibly causing permanent sterilzation, cancer, or death by doing so.

There are spiritual consequences to what we do with our bodies as well. The spiritual impacts of "hating fertlity"which is part of the culture of death is becoming more obvious. Humane vitae predicted it.

Resa77

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-question-5?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d4e814a2-a8cf-4cdd-98cb-c88a09292f57Post:1ca60e56-2548-4ba4-bd35-ee15b816d992">Re: NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP question : As I said, I'm not saying an infertile woman is less than a woman, you made a comment about getting past biology...I was addressing that. Women are the pinnacle of creation, and fertility is not a disease. <strong>Shutting down a working system (or those with endo, etc...struggling to work...the body is still trying, but its difficult) is not the answer.</strong> As I said, there is a long list of docs who have alternatives in healing rather throwing the pill at everything.  You are arguing from a premise that isn't completely true. The pill itself causes infertility, breast cancer, blood clots, etc. You're not helping endo by possibly causing permanent sterilzation, cancer, or death by doing so. There are spiritual consequences to what we do with our bodies as well. The spiritual impacts of "hating fertlity"which is part of the culture of death is becoming more obvious. Humane vitae predicted it.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

By that logic, it's not the answer to perform a hysterectomy on a woman with cancer.  I mean, maybe her system is "struggling to work."  And removing the uterus does not cure the cancer anymore than amputating a leg cures a broken bone. 

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-question-5?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d4e814a2-a8cf-4cdd-98cb-c88a09292f57Post:a6691965-c526-43ad-bf99-42d5d7f8254e">Re: NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP question : By that logic, it's not the answer to perform a hysterectomy on a woman with cancer.  I mean, maybe her system is "struggling to work."  And removing the uterus does not cure the cancer anymore than amputating a leg cures a broken bone. 
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

No, its not the same logic. Women with endo can still possibly have children. Hysterectomies/amputations are done when its completely necessary to save the person's life. As I said, BCP harms more than it helps.

THe church does not have a problem with a medication that has secondary side effects such as infertility. I am  challenging (along with the very long list of docs and other med professionals) the idea that BCP is doing this.

ElisabethJoanne

"You are arguing from a premise that isn't completely true. The pill itself causes infertility, breast cancer, blood clots, etc. You're not helping endo by possibly causing permanent sterilzation, cancer, or death by doing so."

I was earlier trying to argue from a hypothetical, but I thought we agreed on a reality. Arguments about real situations are sometimes logically simpler than hypotheticals, so I went with that. Apparently, we disagree or misunderstand about the medicine. I don't care about the medicine. I care about the abstract principle.

As Resa points out, there are situations where we permanently destroy fertility to save the functioning of other organs. I can imagine a terrible accident in which a man's member is injured and then infected. It might have to be amputated to save his life. There are various times when removing the ovaries or uterus or cervix is necessary to save a woman's life. There's a very rare condition in which it's necessary to remove the uterus with a baby inside to save both lives.

We know it's frequently necessary to hurt a healthy organ to treat a sick organ. In surgery, we harm healthy skin to get at unhealthy internal organs, sometimes leaving a permanent scar. I have scars on the roof of my mouth from where the dentist took tissue to put in the front of my mouth to preserve the tissue and teeth there. Some sensitivity on the roof of my mouth was a decent trade for keeping my front teeth (and I guess there's no artificial or dead-donor substitute for the extra gum tissue I needed).

So, leaving aside any real medical examples, suppose the best treatment for a serious condition in another organ system involved temporarily making a woman (or a man) infertile. Would that treatment be contrary to dignity, or should we treat reproductive organs like we treat other organs, weighing the risks and benefits of harming one to help others?

ElisabethJoanne

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-question-5?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d4e814a2-a8cf-4cdd-98cb-c88a09292f57Post:b47e1208-6c7c-4c0c-b6b4-0752cc13fac8">Re: NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP question : No, its not the same logic. Women with endo can still possibly have children. Hysterectomies/amputations are done when its completely necessary to save the person's life. As I said, BCP harms more than it helps. THe church does not have a problem with a medication that has secondary side effects such as infertility. I am  challenging (along with the very long list of docs and other med professionals) the idea that BCP is doing this.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

You can disregard my last post then. We can disagree about the medicine. I'm not trained in that. I'd assert that a longer list of health care professionals is with me, but the truth is not determined by vote. I understand that.

Mine was just the principle or hypothetical I laid out. It often seems to me that Catholics treat diseases influencing the reproductive systems differently than other diseases. I pointed out the inconsistency of sometimes only treating symptoms (as with painful periods), and sometimes pushing to get at the underlying disease (as with irregular periods).

I had a Catholic friend tell me she rejects birth control pills because they're artificial. Maybe she was just referring to the Church's teaching, but in the medical context we were discussing, I took her to mean she doesn't want a synthetic substance in her body - That would mean no knee replacements, no lab-created antibiotics, no salt or sugar substitutes, no food preservatives, etc. That's a fine lifestyle choice, but the Church doesn't require that, and I happen to know she doesn't actually live that way. If you're OK with a titanium hip, under the appropriate circumstances, you have to be OK with synthetic hormones to treat disease, under the appropriate circumstances (which, as I say above, might not exist; I'm not a doctor). My point is just that I don't see a moral difference in reproductive health v. say, skeletal health.

agapecarrie

You are approaching this idea from a "moral consequence/accountability" standpoint. I'm approaching the question from an internal/spiritual/wound standpoint.

We will get our bodies back in heaven. There is a resurrection of the body, wounds/amputations/hysterectomies and all. While this is a glorified body, we still have the wounds...which would then be glorified. It IS beneath anyone's dignity to have an amputated limb of any kind. This is in no way saying they are less human or less of a person because of it, but it is not the fullness of the intention of God's creation--which is our ultimate dignity. Any act against this (which may be morally justified to save a life) is still beneath the dignity of humanity. (chicken and egg question...original sin cause of pain/deterioration of the body, etc). This is a more philosphical understanding, yet important to understand the spiritual wounds in our families that spill over into physical wounds.

(I've been to several docs who push the pill...they dont' even know how to know when a woman ovulates. They've lost their credibility with me. I know of many docs who used to be pill pushers that have learned/converted and realized how much they were harming their patients).

ElisabethJoanne

Thanks, agape. I really was just trying to understand.

We seem to agree that reproductive diseases are morally the same as other disease, though they have different social implications and that creates a deeper moral complexity. I also agree that any disease or system interruption or amputation is contrary to the full dignity of man.

There's two ways of looking at these things, and now they're explicit. We can say, "Just because you're sick, whether it's the flu or ovarian cancer, you're still just as much a human, just as much a woman, and worthy of just as much respect." Or we can say, "Any disease, whether it's the flu or endometriosis, is an imperfection in man, something that is a result of our sin but can be used to make us holy."

Put more specifically and explicitly, I worry lots about people who struggle with infertility and sterility and the groundless shame they feel. I see two approaches, and I never know which to take, and it's not really my call, as I'm not in the situation yet. One is to say, "There's no shame in these diseases. Let's support these people the same as if they had a viral infection or an injury from a car accident." The other is to say, "There's no shame in these diseases. Let's stop gossiping about these people and just pray they get better same as if they had the flu or a broken leg."

Actually, the flu and a broken leg are bad examples, because those are fairly external conditions. It should be more like other diseases of the internal organs - I don't know, like acid reflux disease. You can keep acid reflux disease a secret. Yet at a certain point in a Catholic marriage, the couple is either contracepting or infertile. If you know they're good Catholics, and there's no or too few babies, you know there's a fertility issue. And I just hate that we know. And I hate that there's shame either way. Shame for contracepting. Social shame with infertility. So I try to dispel the social stigma of infertility.

bibliophile2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-question-5?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d4e814a2-a8cf-4cdd-98cb-c88a09292f57Post:02f3ece4-45d3-4b2c-ab08-5e8c16e9abd0">Re: NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]Yet at a certain point in a Catholic marriage, the couple is either contracepting or infertile. If you know they're good Catholics, and there's no or <strong>too few babies</strong>, you know there's a fertility issue. And I just hate that we know. And I hate that there's shame either way. Shame for contracepting. Social shame with infertility. So I try to dispel the social stigma of infertility.
Posted by ElisabethJoanne[/QUOTE]

I'm glad ya'll hashed this out while I was at work. <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" />

Only God can determine what is too few babies, and only He can know whether a couple is following His will for their fertility. Contracepting, though, is clearly undermining His will. We have been given instead the ability to discover the science behind NFP and the grace to live according to God's plan so that we may discern  and do His will to the best of our ability. I know that there have been really good conversations here with ladies trying to figure out how to discern God's plan for their fertility.

I agree that there should be no stigma for number of children or infertility.

I also think there needs to be ever-more research done on how to <em>actually</em> treat painful, debilitating conditions and their underlying causes that occur in a woman's reproductive system in a way that preserves both her dignity and her fertility.

Raeily

I have tried to talk to an NFP trainer about what the church would say that I should do because of the endometriosis and she would only tell me that BCP was going to give me cancer. Now, I'm not saying that she's the end-all source, but I haven't been able to speak to anyone else yet. 

Obviously I would rather treat endometriosis than just "cover it up" with BCP but I have yet to hear of a way to do that besides surgery which I can't afford. I have altered my diet, added excercises and tried over the counter pills. But even when I'm BCP to help with the pain it is still worse than what I've been told is normal. I still have to take Ibuprofen to stay up and about. 

If I "destroy" my dignity by taking BCP while I am not sexual active, what would you have me do? 

theangelcin

Raeily,

I went poking around online a bit and found this...

http://endometriosis.org/resources/articles/how-to-find-a-specialist/

I don't know if you'll find anything useful or not, but maybe it'll help you prepare for what to ask when you find someone to talk to.

I really hope you are able to find help with this. ^_^

agapecarrie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-question-5?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d4e814a2-a8cf-4cdd-98cb-c88a09292f57Post:a13d8ecd-20e8-442c-baed-ecf064a04ea0">Re: NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]I have tried to talk to an NFP trainer about what the church would say that I should do because of the endometriosis and she would only tell me that BCP was going to give me cancer. Now, I'm not saying that she's the end-all source, but I haven't been able to speak to anyone else yet.  Obviously I would rather treat endometriosis than just "cover it up" with BCP but I have yet to hear of a way to do that besides surgery which I can't afford. I have altered my diet, added excercises and tried over the counter pills. But even when I'm BCP to help with the pain it is still worse than what I've been told is normal. I still have to take Ibuprofen to stay up and about.  If I "destroy" my dignity by taking BCP while I am not sexual active, what would you have me do? 
Posted by Raeily[/QUOTE]

Find an NFP only doctor.... omsoul.com

People drive from states away to go to the ones in my town.

Raeily

Thanks all.  

I can't afford to see a specialist at the moment but hopefully in the future I can get this taken care of. 

I've heard it said in the past that if I have to be on BCP after I'm married that my Husband and I should abstain from sex until I am able to get off it. Do you guys agree?

professorscience

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-question-5?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d4e814a2-a8cf-4cdd-98cb-c88a09292f57Post:ca67fa9e-a325-4313-937e-5e2330c9b5d9">Re: NFP question</a>:
[QUOTE]Thanks all. :)  I can't afford to see a specialist at the moment but hopefully in the future I can get this taken care of.  I've heard it said in the past that if I have to be on BCP after I'm married that my Husband and I should abstain from sex until I am able to get off it. Do you guys agree?
Posted by Raeily[/QUOTE]

<div>There are OB/GYNs who advertise in our parish bulletin all the time, and OBs are covered on every insurance plan ever.  I get it if you've had your well-woman exam for the year, but it can't hurt to start looking around.</div><div>
</div><div>The thing that freaked me out was learning that BCP can damage the cervix and hinder your ability to produce mucous.</div>

agapecarrie

an NFP doctor isn't necessarily a specialist. There are NFP- family docs and NFP ob/gyns
Regarding abstaining, the church does not require it, however, there is a potential for abortion, so some choose to.

Raeily

I can't even afford to go to the doctor regularly. I'm not currently insured and won't be until after the wedding. 

I'm just surprised that there isn't a well documented way that NFP doctors/ob/gyns would suggest to treat endometriosis. No offense, but I -know- I need to see a doctor NFP or not to get real treatment for my problem but what I have been asking is "Is there a specific treatment that NFP doctors/ob/gyns would suggest for endometriosis besides surgery?"  I'm guessing no. 

Thanks anyway.