Do you plan to submit to your husband?

forrma7

ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh. i truly hate it when people cut down another religious belief without interpreting it for what it really means. submitting to your husband does not mean that you don't have an equal partnership, so your poll is misguided.

this passage is describing an equal marriage. wife submitting to her husband means respecting her husband, as it says in 5:33.

the best part, is the verse that explains the entire thing was left out (as in most cases)

Ephesians 5:21

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ

Morfudd

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : They got married in the middle-east.  They didn't choose the reading, the priest of the Orthodox Coptic Christian Church did.  We didn't need to convince my brother, we tried to convince the priest, since no one in my family would have picked this reading, and 90% of the guests didn't understand English, anyway.
Posted by KentuckyKate[/QUOTE]

It was my understanding that the readings in the Orthodox Church are set by the liturgy, and are not changeable. (So I am told by my Russian Orthodox friend.) So the priest didn't choose the readings, either.

shellydiane820

We used this reading in our mass.

I like it.  Its basically telling you to respect each other, and love each other the way Christ loved his church.

katiewhompus

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[QUOTE]ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh. i truly hate it when people cut down another religious belief without interpreting it for what it really means. submitting to your husband does not mean that you don't have an equal partnership, so your poll is misguided. this passage is describing an equal marriage. wife submitting to her husband means respecting her husband, as it says in 5:33. the best part, is the verse that explains the entire thing was left out (as in most cases)<strong> Ephesians 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ
</strong>Posted by forrma7[/QUOTE]

That makes me feel much better. :) (No I'm not being sarcastic)

elizabethm4

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : This.  Some doctrines take this much too far.  Each should submit to one another.  When it says husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church, it's not meant to be "boss them around and treat them like sh*t."  I've heard women use this verse in abusive relationships, that's BS.  Each should submit to each other = be equal and work together in love.  It is a great verse, too bad it's often misinterrupted by too many women...and men.
Posted by jnic0319[/QUOTE]

<div>YES. Husbands give up themselves for their wives and wives submit to their husbands. It's supposed to be a mutual commitment </div>

forrma7

thanks katie!

i didn't mean to get all heated. but i'm a christian, and i do not believe that the bible is meant to be taken literally.

it's super frustrating to me when people seemingly make fun of a bible verse when they either take it out of context or assume that people who believe it take it literally, word for word.

we also forget that the English bible is simply a translation from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

Morfudd

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[QUOTE]We used this reading in our mass. I like it.  Its basically telling you to respect each other, and love each other the way Christ loved his church.
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]

We're using it, for the same reasons. I also love the way it ends; "this is a great mystery, and I am applying it to Christ and his church"-- the realtionship of Christ to the Church is not the mystery, here-- Paul's basically saying, "Dudes. Marriage is SO GREAT a gift (mystery), the only thing we can compare it to is something that we can barely understand because it's divine."

(Yes, St. Paul says "dudes" in my mind, which is why I do the HISTORY of theology, not theology proper-- and why I'm glad Catholics don't usually have group bible-studies and so I can read it on my own.)

ohwhynot

Okay, I do have a question for people who believe that this is a good thing, and I am honestly not making fun or being snarky.  If its true meaning is that both the husband and wife serve each other, why not have the wife love her husband as Christ loved the church and the husband submit to the wife?  If it really is a mutual serving of each other, why different terms for what each should do? 

tldh

Not a chance in hell!!!

I do remember that this settled the debate between my Catholic brother and Southern Baptist Sister in law while they were engaged as to whose church they would marry in.  The Conference of Southern Baptist Bishops (or whoever the leaders were) released a statement emphasizing this and chastising women for not doing it.  SIL came storming in my parents house, grabbed my brother by the arm and yelled they were going to go see Fr. Cavanaugh because no way was she marrying in her church after this.

t.kaufman

to me, the second part of the passage does not make up for the first. if it said, "wives submit to your husbands, just as they submit to you," then that would be cool. but it doesn't say that at all. you can twist the words however you want, but when it was written, it was meant that women should be submissive and obey what they're leader, the man, says. Of course I'm happy that it doesn't end with "and husbands should beat their wives," but I still don't think that commanding the husband to love his wife makes up for the first part. perhaps it was revolutionary thinking back in the day, but shouldn't "god's word" be eternal and completely the way god intended for all time?

casteel12

Um, no.

jnic0319

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[QUOTE]I love how everyone on here is so quick to pass judgement and yet no one has actually taken the time to look into this verse a little deeper - or perhaps take a look at what God commands of husbands... 25 Husbands,  love your wives, as Christ loved the church and  gave Himself up for her Husbands are to love their wives like Christ loved the church - the people are the church. Jesus' love for his people was so great that he was brutally abused, his skin ripped from his body, physically beaten, thorns thrust into his head, carried his own cross in which he would be murdered on - all for the love of his people that he saved.  So ladies ask yourselves - would your husband go to that length for you - is his love for you that strong?  Based on that I think that if women are to submit to their husbands is obeying God - we got the better end of the deal. 
Posted by jillross[/QUOTE]

I agree, if your husband is TRULY loving you the way Christ loved the church, then you would want to submit to him (not in the taking away your rights sort of way) but by respecting him and loving him the way the Church loves and submits to Christ.  Unfortunately a lot of men don't love their wives that unconditionally, no matter how wonderful of husbands they are, and women do not submit to their husbands the way we are to submit to Christ, loving him and honoring him in return.  It is a great thing to strive for in a relationship, basically to have the ultimate love for each other.

NuggetBrain

I will submit to him every day of my life, as long as he keeps me flush in Dr. Pepper and cream of mushroom soup.

katiewhompus

OWN - My guess, purely based on historical content, is just the patriarchal society which was the environment the Bible was written in/based on. People have made very drastic changes in the male/female relationship in the past 50 or so years and it was probably seen as the norm.
Similar to some cultures where the men give more authority to women while in the household, because it is "their turf".
It makes me happy to see people reinterpretting it to fit the current time, although that's a debate for another day

forrma7

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[QUOTE]to me, the second part of the passage does not make up for the first. if it said, "wives submit to your husbands, just as they submit to you," then that would be cool. but it doesn't say that at all. you can twist the words however you want, but when it was written, it was meant that women should be submissive and obey what they're leader, the man, says. Of course I'm happy that it doesn't end with "and husbands should beat their wives," but I still don't think that commanding the husband to love his wife makes up for the first part. perhaps it was revolutionary thinking back in the day, but shouldn't "god's word" be eternal and completely the way god intended for all time?
Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]

<div>how is it twisting words when Eph. 5:21 says it bluntly, that wives and husbands submit to each other?</div><div>
</div><div>and i bring up my point about translation again. we get stuck on the english lingo but  remember that the original text was notttttt in english! </div>

t.kaufman

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[QUOTE]ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh. i truly hate it when people cut down another religious belief without interpreting it for what it really means. submitting to your husband does not mean that you don't have an equal partnership, so your poll is misguided. this passage is describing an equal marriage. wife submitting to her husband means respecting her husband, as it says in 5:33. the best part, is the verse that explains the entire thing was left out (as in most cases) Ephesians 5:21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ
Posted by forrma7[/QUOTE]

Didn't leave that verse out intentionally. But even taking that into consideration, you cannot change the fact that it immediately then says "For the husband is the head of the wife" - I don't think we can interpret that any other way than what it reads....

forrma7

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : Didn't leave that verse out intentionally. But even taking that into consideration, you cannot change the fact that it immediately then says "For the husband is the head of the wife" - I don't think we can interpret that any other way than what it reads....
Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>i certainly understand what you're saying.</div><div>
</div><div>but what my point is, is that the context and the meaning of the entire passage is what should be focused on, not one part. this is because one verse from the passage does not contribute to the entire meaning.</div><div>
</div><div>the key understanding of the passage is mutual obedience to each other. mutual respect. mutual love.</div><div>
</div><div>i understand why you're hung up on one verse and one phrase, but the man as the head of the wife is not the point of the verse.</div>

mica178

Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

OWN and t. kaufman, the Bible is a written tradition from the last several millennia.  A lot of it is prose and history, but a lot is poetry.  It's not a handbook or encyclopedia, so there's room for interpretation, hidden messages within the text, lots and lots of literary devices.  Most people who take Christianity (or Judaism) seriously agree that reading the Bible (OT and/or NT) would not make anyone an expert in the religion.  You're supposed to make Bible study a lifelong endeavor and constantly look for God's message throughout the text.  I think the best explanation I've heard is that the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally.  It's meant to be taken seriously. 

Edited for spelling error. 

Second edit: Clarification: sorry, reading the Bible once wouldn't make you an expert.  Lifelong study is needed.

KentuckyKate

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : It was my understanding that the readings in the Orthodox Church are set by the liturgy, and are not changeable. (So I am told by my Russian Orthodox friend.) So the priest didn't choose the readings, either.
Posted by Morfudd[/QUOTE]
Don't know if the Coptics are the same way, but this priest's explanation was, "I love that reading."

t.kaufman

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : how is it twisting words when Eph. 5:21 says it bluntly, that wives and husbands submit to each other? and i bring up my point about translation again. we get stuck on the english lingo but  remember that the original text was notttttt in english! 
Posted by forrma7[/QUOTE]


Because it still says that the man is the "head" of the household - he is in charge. Think about it. Man gets compared to god, while woman gets compared to the church. which would you rather be? pretty sure I'd pick to be compared to god and be the head of the household.

Also, if we can't take anything literally out of the bible because of the time period it was written in or because of bad translations... then how can we know anything about god or the religion [maybe god should have translated this for us?]

or maybe it is all bad translation which makes religion moot.

jnic0319

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[QUOTE]Okay, I do have a question for people who believe that this is a good thing, and I am honestly not making fun or being snarky.  If its true meaning is that both the husband and wife serve each other, why not have the wife love her husband as Christ loved the church and the husband submit to the wife?  If it really is a mutual serving of each other, why different terms for what each should do? 
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]

I'm taking a stab here...but I think there was an issue happening in the church at the time where they were not respecting each other (and I believe from what I gathered from my pastor father, the men were at fault).  This was the easiest way to give them an analogy they would understand.  Christ loved the church unconditionally, give your wife the ultimate love.  The church loves Christ, give your husband that ultimate love.

forrma7

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : Because it still says that the man is the "head" of the household - he is in charge. Think about it. Man gets compared to god, while woman gets compared to the church. which would you rather be? pretty sure I'd pick to be compared to god and be the head of the household. Also, if we can't take anything literally out of the bible because of the time period it was written in or because of bad translations... then how can we know anything about god or the religion [maybe god should have translated this for us?] or maybe it is all bad translation which makes religion moot.
Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>well luckily, i didn't say bad translation. but i believe that this passage means that the husband is meant to act as the spiritual leader of the relationship, but also respect and love his wife.</div><div>
</div><div>woman is also regularly held in high esteem in other parts of the bible, and i suggest that you try to find some of those passages as well.</div><div>
</div><div>it's very easy for me to understand and accept a passage like this, when i know that there is evidence in the rest of the bible that god does not think women are beneath men.</div>

missy68

You're looking at something with a 21st century point of view that was written/translated many centuries ago and has been translated multiple times. It is also one person's particular translation of what one particular person chose to write down.
 


Forma, that's what I was trying to say - you said it in less words. 

forrma7

anyways, i'm going to have to leave this board now, the FI is a calling after me.

but t.kaufman, thanks for the good discussion! and thanks for being civilized. not everyone likes to debate nicely.

Morfudd

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[QUOTE]OWN - My guess, purely based on historical content, is just the patriarchal society which was the environment the Bible was written in/based on.
Posted by katiewhompus[/QUOTE]

Katie (and Mica(h?)) are both making good points. And OWN, those were good questions, not snarky.

Also remember that it has to work both ways, to describe both marriage and the church. The woman is in the place of the (submissive) church due to the historical context-- and the man can't then be described as submitting to his wife-- in the metaphor about the church-- because Christ does not submit to the church.

Then he clarifies the matter that in marriage that is NOT a metaphor for the church, the husband and wife submit to one another, as has been pointed out.

Does that make sense? I admit I don't usually talk religion with nonreligious people, since it makes everyone uncomfortable.

mica178

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : Because it still says that the man is the "head" of the household - he is in charge. Think about it. Man gets compared to god, while woman gets compared to the church. which would you rather be? pretty sure I'd pick to be compared to god and be the head of the household. Also, if we can't take anything literally out of the bible because of the time period it was written in or because of bad translations... then how can we know anything about god or the religion [maybe god should have translated this for us?] or maybe it is all bad translation which makes religion moot.
Posted by t.kaufman[/QUOTE]

First, please read everyone else's responses to you.  Most of the answers to your questions are contained within them.

I'm going to guess that you weren't a poetry or literature major.  Don't be so concrete.  It's not good for the complexion.

t.kaufman

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? :  but i believe that this passage means that the husband is meant to act as the spiritual leader of the relationship, but also respect and love his wife.
Posted by forrma7[/QUOTE]

Why does the man have to be the spiritual leader?

Obviously we will never ever agree with each other on this, which is expected. But I will say that I'm very happy to see so many people not take such passages completely literally... though it sounds like some of you still see the husband as your leader, which I think is very anti-woman... but I'm trying to play nice. So I'll just leave it with being happy that most of you don't read this as all in all submission to what hubby wants.

A little background on me - raised Christian. Attended religious grade school. As soon as I gained the ability to reason, I began questioning, but was afraid of going to hell for many years. Eventually I lost my fear and kicked religion to the curb [though I went on to study World Religions in college]. A major reason for leaving the religion was verses such as these... and there are many. I think that if there were a god who was going to write a book [or have people inspired to write "his" book], then it should be filled with what he actually intends to say with no translating errors or misguided disciples' ideas. How can you pick between passages or say that this passage is okay because there are other passages that talk nice about women? I don't think you can pick and choose. It's either all god's word or it's not.

But I understand that everyone's going to look at the situation differently and  as much as I might want to, I can't convince everyone to just agree with me.

JessAndTrav

That passage is infamous for frightening people, but it's not saying "SUBMIT TO EVERYTHING HE EVER SAYS!!!!"

It's essentially saying that the man is intended to be the head of the house, and while the woman is supposed to be submissive, the man is supposed to love his bride as Christ loved the church (aka, everyone.)

If a man truly loves his wife as Christ did the church, then he wouldn't command her around, and he would be willing to listen and respect any issues that she may have with something.

For example, if a Methodist man were to marry a Baptist woman, and they wanted to decide where to take their children to church, then after discussion and prayer, the couple should choose, and while yes, the man is the one who should "make the choice" [based on this scripture], if it wasn't a choice made with the guidance of God, then the man's decision basically doesn't count. If they both prayed about it and were guided by God, then they would most likely arrive at the same decision.

Does that make sense? It's hard to type it in a short form. Of course this is all in the perfect world and setting, but it's what God wants for us and from us.

pixiedust84

I think we also have to remember that the Bible was not written by God but by humans who are flawed. I'm a faithful person and believe in God but I definitely don't believe that the Bible is everything that God wanted to tell us. Some of it may actually be written by corrupt people who wrote passages or compiled passages to suit their needs.

I think Christianity is wonderful and like all other religions it is provides a guideline on how to live your life well and with meaning. I just don't think that the Bible is "God's word" because it was written by humans.I also believe there are parts of the Bible that are missing and who knows, maybe the parts written by women would have said the women is the spiritual leader and men should submit to them. Either way it was written by people, not God. So everyone needs to follow what they feel is right.

t.kaufman

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[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Do you plan to submit to your husband? : First, please read everyone else's responses to you.  Most of the answers to your questions are contained within them. I'm going to guess that you weren't a poetry or literature major.  Don't be so concrete.  It's not good for the complexion.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]


LOL. English Lit was actually one of my majors. :)