What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?

pirategal03

BSA has a strong emphasis on family.  It's one of their goals to instil a sense of family responsibility in the boys.  As a Webelo, your son may be required to bring an adult (preferably his father although another adult may work) to many events, especially camping trips.  The pinewood derby is an event designed for the Scout and his adult (again, usually father) create the car and get to experience the race together.

Basically what I'm saying is that putting your kid is Boy Scouts isn't just a commitment for your son.  It's a commitment for you and his dad too.

This is an excerpt from the Boy Scout Law:

"A Scout is Reverent.

A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."

From my experience in Scouting, not professing faith in God, or not reciting that line of the Laws won't get him kicked out, it just may call some unnecessary attention to him.  His peers may notice.  His leaders may ask why.  But I don't think punishment is really a concern. 

strawberrycrz

My FI is an eagle scout and he wants nothing to do with religion.  So it didn't have that much affect on him.

danieliza1127

I only read a few responses, so sorry if I'm repeating it.

I think just like in any situation with lots of other kids and adults, you just need to teach your kid what is and isn't okay.  I mean, there are people in his school I'm sure that are very religious and against gays, but you still send him to school.  I think as long as you are clear to him what your family believes and that it is NOT okay to discriminate against gay people, then letting him join won't hurt anything. 

antimony

I wouldn't let my hypothetical son join, at least not until he was old enough to understand the decision and pay for any fees out of his own pocket.  Both on organized-religion and personal ethical grounds. 

I was raised (and am) Unitarian Universalist.  Both the BSA and GSUSA have a program where scouts can get a patch/pin/something from their own religion and display it on their uniform.  The UUA has a program -- which talks frankly about atheism and the BSA policy, and the BSA revoked the program just because it talks to scouts about the controversy.  If they can't even handle the idea of kids who have decided to join understanding that the organization discriminates, that's not something I want to support. 

On non-religious grounds, I can't support their stance on gay scouts or leaders.  Either this or the religious issues would be enough to make me unable to support the organization. 

(To those saying BSA doesn't push religion: I was in GSUSA as an atheist before they universally decided to open their doors to atheists and all sexual orientations.  It was not a comfortable situation, even though my local troop was very much ignoring anything along those lines from above.  I either had to edit my oaths on the fly or I had to lie to be part of the organization, and when I went to camp, I was soundly chastised for not saying/singing heavily-Christian religious graces on several occasions.  (I would stand/bow head respectfully as appropriate, but I would not join in.)  If this was the case in an organization that just hadn't yet asked itself the hard questions and decided to be inclusive, I can only imagine how much worse it is for atheist scouts in an organization that deliberately excludes them.) 

If I have a son, and he wants to scout, if I have to start a troop for one of the alternative scouting organizations I will.  My FI agrees -- and he's an Eagle Scout. 

tenofcups4me

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_opinion-boy-scouts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:3c4ea406-2ab0-4dd1-a643-5fec3280bb12Post:7949384a-b087-4830-9683-5334603e5e2e">Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?</a>:
[QUOTE] I mean, there are people in his school I'm sure that are very religious and against gays, but you still send him to school.  Posted by danieliza1127[/QUOTE]

That's different. The school doesn't actively promote those policies (or shouldn't), while the Boy Scouts do.

It's more like choosing to send your kid to a religious-based daycare or camp that's not of your own religion. There could be good reasons to do it and the child might benefit from it, but it's in conflict with your own belief system and values. Tricky.

ohwhynot

I do think that's a big different, Dani.   My children go to school with all sort of people; they know that most people believe in god, they know to respect others' beliefs, and they know that there are people out there who discriminate against others on all sorts of bases.  

But the difference is choosing to support, by joining our names to and paying money to, a private organization that requires a scout to profess a belief that is different from ours and that discriminates against gay people. 

I really have a hard time saying no, because I think the organization does a lot of good things.  On the other hand, I have a hard time saying yes because dammit, my principles have to mean something, even when it would be more fun to look the other way. 

mica178

Do you know any of the parents of boys in your son's local BSA chapter?  Maybe you could get a feel of what the group your son would be joining is.

I belonged to GSA when I was a girl, and I can't remember anything especially religious about it.  We did crafts and went on field trips and sold cookies, but since none of the girls (or their parents) in the group were religious, the spirituality aspect of the club was pushed aside.

As far as everything else goes, as long as you talk with your son about your family's values, he's less likely to pick up the values of the BSA.  I went to Catholic school every Saturday for years to learn about the bible and somehow managed not to be a homophobe.

missy68

If your son is excited about this, then I think you need to let him join. The Boy Scouts develop character in young men, and not hate. They teach the youth to be respectful towards all people, of all beliefs. There is no one religion supported - if you notice, it says God, not Jesus. All religions have some form of a God. I realize you say you are an Atheist, but are you going to let your son choose his own stance on what he wants to be?
The Boy Scouts do not teach its members to hate gays. It has nothing to do with the individual person. What it does teach is honesty, loyalty, respect, and citizenship. It's also a great way for kids to meet new friends and have fun - pinewood derbies, campouts when they get older, and going to summer camp once they become Boy Scouts. It isn't a hate-based organization as so many people want to make it out to be. They have chosen to keep the beliefs they started with intact.
And Mery, "Eagle Scouts" is not a program, it is an honor earned through hard work and a project.  It's the peak of a Boy Scout's "career" if you will. There's no "technically" about it. You either are or you aren't. It isn't something to waffle about. Neil Armstrong, Gerald Ford, Sam Walton, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, Hank Aaron, Walter Cronkite, Bill Gates, Steven Fossett, and J. Willard Marriott are all examples of Eagle Scouts.
In my somewhat biased opinion, I would let him try it out.

danieliza1127

I see your points tenofcups and OWN.  I think though, based on your friend telling you that this particular chapter doesn't do all that stuff, I would let my kid join and have fun.  You unknowingly contribute to things you probably don't agree with every day of your life.  I know I do everytime I buy grocery store meat and fast food.

I totally see your concern and if you choose that your principles are more important here, that's cool, I'm just saying if it were me, I'd let him join and have fun.  Maybe I'm too laid back about it.

banana468

If your son is also an Athiest, then my understanding is that he can't be in it at all.  So that could be a quick way to explain to him why it's not an organization for him.

I'm not a fan of the stance they have on gays, but I'll happily support BSA if our children are interested in joining it.  DH and his brother are Eagle Scouts and it was a huge discipline for them.

Plus, by being a Scout, there were huge opportunities that they had in team building trips that they would not have had otherwise.  He has been to the Bahamas twice, to Wyoming once and canoed down the Allagash in Maine.  These were fantastic things for him AND it was great on his college resume.

But, that doesn't mean that you should ask him to change for the scouts either.    I respect that it's a tough call, but this may be one that only you can make.

banana468

Also, DH mentioned that the BSA has retroactively revoked Eagle rank from Scouts who were proclaimed athiests.  So lying is clearly not the way to go.

ohwhynot

MIssy, I never said, and never would say, that BSA is a "hate based organization."  However, they require as part of the oath, that each boy scout promise to do his duty to God.  Of course my son will be "allowed" to make up his own mind, ultimately, but if a parent is raising a child in a religious tradition, I doubt it would be no big deal if the organization had in its oath a declaration that the child did not believe in god.  I see this as the same thing:  a problem for us.  I doubt people would be saying "well, lots of people don't believe in god, and aren't you going to let your child make up his mind?  Why is it a big deal if the organization requires no belief?" 

Also, while BSA doesn't promote hatred of gays, it's silly to say that it's not aimed at any individual person.  Each gay scout and each gay would-be leader is an individual person affected by its policies.  It's discriminatory; there's no way around that.  Sugar-coating it doesn't help. 

danieliza1127

Also based on what Banana just said, maybe he wouldn't even be allowed to join?  Poor kid, I can't imagine trying to explain to a kid why he can't have the fun his friends are having because he doesn't believe in God. 

banana468

It's actually not completely anti-gay.  I'm still not a huge fan of the policies, but you can be gay and be a scout.  Just don't attend a gay pride parade in your scout uniform or preach it at the meetings.

From what DH says, it's a larger issue to be an atheist and to be a Scout.

missy68

It's not sugar coating. It's the actual wording. Yes, an individual can be affected, but they are not judging people, just the same as you aren't judging someone who DOES believe in God. Maybe it changes in the future, maybe it doesn't.
They don't sit around and say "look at so-and so" over there; he's gay, we won't let him in and we must hate him." That's ridiculous.

The benefits Scouting offers far outweigh, in my opinion, these concerns. But that is my opinion, and you are entitled to yours as well.

CLSchramm

" Imagine, if you (not you, Moose, necessarily - any you) are a religious person raising your child in your religious tradition, that the organization required scouts to denounce their faith and state that they did NOT believe in god.  Would you find that offensive enough to not send your son to that organization?"

If this were my mother answering your question, the answer would be a strong, resounding "NO!". But I am not my mother, and I also consider her a Very close-minded person. She wouldn't even LET my sister read the Harry Potter books because they talked about witchcraft. As if my sister wasn't intelligent enough to realize it was just a story. That always bothered me immensely.

To take a few quotes from the oath you posted:

"On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law"

" . He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them."

"A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others."

Honoring his duty, following laws (and working to change those that are unfair in an 'orderly' manner - who knows, maybe your son will be instrumental in a change), and being reverant, faithful, and respectuful. All these seem like good values to me to be teaching a child. I didn't see anywhere in there about needing to 'profess' a faith in God, or even say a prayer. A person can be reverant towards 'gods' they don't believe in. (reverent - feeling or showing profound respect).

If your son were to take every word of the oath to heart, which I doubt he will, I still don't see how that would be against any of your beliefs.

mags0607

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_opinion-boy-scouts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:3c4ea406-2ab0-4dd1-a643-5fec3280bb12Post:63452384-7ddb-4112-bfe9-6270198c4776">Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?</a>:
[QUOTE]I do think that's a big different, Dani.   My children go to school with all sort of people; they know that most people believe in god, they know to respect others' beliefs, and they know that there are people out there who discriminate against others on all sorts of bases.   But the difference is choosing to support, by joining our names to and paying money to, a private organization that requires a scout to profess a belief that is different from ours and that discriminates against gay people.  I really have a hard time saying no, because I think the organization does a lot of good things.  <strong>On the other hand, I have a hard time saying yes because dammit, my principles have to mean something, even when it would be more fun to look the other way. </strong>
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]


I am really torn on this one too, because I firmly advocate standing up what you believe in. It would be fun, and your son might never have to deal with professing an Oath that references God, or deal with their homosexuality discrimination. But, I would really have a hard time letting him join something that I as a parent raised him not to believe in.

That goes for anything. FWIW, I am Catholic, although I find it hard to practice religion because of the teachings of the church. But, I do believe strongly in God. If the situation was reversed, and I had to let my child join something that firmly believed and promoted a renouncing of God, I couldn't do it. So I see exactly where you are coming from.

I respect you for wanting to stand for your values and for what you believe, and I say you should talk to him about finding another organization or activity.

Calypso1977

i personally wouldnt sign my child up, and give money to, an organization that did not teach and support things that i agreed with.  if i were an atheist, i would nto send my kid to scouts.

banana468

[QUOTE]If your son were to take every word of the oath to heart, which I doubt he will, I still don't see how that would be against any of your beliefs. [/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, you flat out can't be an athiest and a Scout.  As I said above, DH has mentioned that the Scouts have retroactively revoked Eagle from self-proclaimed athiests.  It's that big a deal.  You have to believe in SOME God.

CLSchramm

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_opinion-boy-scouts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:3c4ea406-2ab0-4dd1-a643-5fec3280bb12Post:da632a75-90d1-4cc9-aa48-0afc02abf347">Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?</a>:
[QUOTE]Unfortunately, you flat out can't be an athiest and a Scout.  As I said above, DH has mentioned that the Scouts have retroactively revoked Eagle from self-proclaimed athiests.  It's that big a deal.  You have to believe in SOME God.
Posted by banana468[/QUOTE]

Do you really think all the boys in there believe in a 'god'? My guess is, they just want to race soap box cars. And, I still dont see where it says "BELIEF- you must believe in some GOD" in the oath. Like I said, maybe it's time for a change, and it'll never change as long as no one does anything about it.

missy68

By the way, even L Ron Hubbard was an Eagle Scout. I say was, since he's deceased.

Those of you who are Atheists, when you were in school did you say the pledge of allegiance in school? Or, if you have children, do they say it? What about the line, One nation under God?

banana468

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_opinion-boy-scouts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:3c4ea406-2ab0-4dd1-a643-5fec3280bb12Post:b310474b-aecc-4161-9819-0765fa1366dc">Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts? : Do you really think all the boys in there believe in a 'god'? My guess is, they just want to race soap box cars. And, I still dont see where it says "BELIEF- you must believe in some GOD" in the oath. Like I said, maybe it's time for a change, and it'll never change as long as no one does anything about it.
Posted by CLSchramm[/QUOTE]

You do understand that they do SO much more than that right?  The car stuff is what CUB Scouts do.  BOY scouts do a ton more.

And sure, you can lie every time you attend meetings and as you achieve Eagle.  But is that something that you think is smart to instill in your children? 

Personally, I don't think it's time for a change.  Just because some people don't fit in with the organization does not mean that the organization needs to alter itself in some way.  It just means that the Boy Scouts aren't for everyone.

Calypso1977

i dont think the scouts should have to change their beliefs, rules or pledges to accomodate atheists.  its a voluntary organization.  no child is required to join.  if anything perhaps the atheists can form their own scouting association to achieve similar goals.

missy, wasnt there a HUGE case a few years back abotu the dad who was an atheist and how he didnt want his kid to say the pledge?

missy68

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_opinion-boy-scouts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:3c4ea406-2ab0-4dd1-a643-5fec3280bb12Post:2abd2668-b79f-4f8d-b8a0-672b6a046123">Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts? : You do understand that they do SO much more than that right?  The car stuff is what CUB Scouts do.  BOY scouts do a ton more. And sure, you can lie every time you attend meetings and as you achieve Eagle.  But is that something that you think is smart to instill in your children?  Personally, <strong>I don't think it's time for a change.  Just because some people don't fit in with the organization does not mean that the organization needs to alter itself in some way.  It just means that the Boy Scouts aren't for everyone.
</strong>Posted by banana468[/QUOTE]

Well said, Banana.

missy68

May have been, Calypso. We said it everyday in my school. I couldn't tell you what the outcome was. My guess would be students could opt out.

ohwhynot

MIssy:  I wasn't an atheist when I was in school; I was raised Catholic.  I don't think my kids say the pledge in school - they're not required to, in any event. 

Banana:  I agree and disagree.  I don't think it's time for the BSA to change its stance on duty to God - that is an inherent part of its principles, and always has been.  I do think, though, that they need to change their position on gay leaders and gay scouts.  I don't see how being gay goes against any of its founding principles. 

Celles

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_opinion-boy-scouts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:3c4ea406-2ab0-4dd1-a643-5fec3280bb12Post:3b632b07-b38d-4c13-8706-937ffe1a9835">Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?</a>:
[QUOTE]By the way, even L Ron Hubbard was an Eagle Scout. I say was, since he's deceased. Those of you who are Atheists, when you were in school did you say the pledge of allegiance in school? Or, if you have children, do they say it? What about the line, One nation under God?
Posted by missy68[/QUOTE]

I did not say that line.  I didn't make a public issue of it; I just never said it.  A few people noticed.  Most didn't.

fabshelly

From Scouts Honor:

Alternatives to the Boy Scouts: Youth Organizations That Do Not Discriminate

* Boys and Girls Clubs of America, www.bgca.org
* National 4-H Council, www.fourhcouncil.edu
* Camp Fire Boys and Girls, www.campfire.org
* Center for Youth as Resources, www.yar.org
* Girl Scouts, www.gsusa.org
* Jewish Community Centers, www.jcca.org
* YMCA, www.ymca.net

katiewhompus

When I was in school I didn't say the pledge. I received a death threat on my locker and my car tires were slashed. So it doesn't matter if it's not mandatory, if you are seen as not following the norm it can have very real consequences.

That being said, a lot of things in our world were founded and are still run under a Christian/Religious vein. One example is that I wanted to join Habitat for Humanity and help build houses,  but cannot because they require church membership.

"Revere God" means "to respect, tinged with aw" or "to stand in awe/fear of". Personally I think it can go both ways. I have no problem respecting God, even if I don't necessarily believe in the Western Christian view of a Deity. I think he could translate the pledge as to respect God, if not necessarily to believe in God.

Honestly, I don't know This is something I need to figure out as well though, as Dh is Catholic and once we have a kid I'm going to be hearing the baptism arguement (from his family, not him) for ever and ever.

(post and run, gotta go back to finish my root canal from 2 months ago, ugh)

CLSchramm

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_opinion-boy-scouts?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:3c4ea406-2ab0-4dd1-a643-5fec3280bb12Post:2abd2668-b79f-4f8d-b8a0-672b6a046123">Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your opinion on the Boy Scouts? : You do understand that they do SO much more than that right?  The car stuff is what CUB Scouts do.  BOY scouts do a ton more. And sure, you can lie every time you attend meetings and as you achieve Eagle.  But is that something that you think is smart to instill in your children?  Personally, I don't think it's time for a change.  Just because some people don't fit in with the organization does not mean that the organization needs to alter itself in some way.  It just means that the Boy Scouts aren't for everyone.
Posted by banana468[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, and I know I'll probably get flamed for this, but I totally disagree with you. No, I am not saying he should lie, I never said that, in fact, I was pointing out how, if he wished, he could take the pledge and make it his own, and define it by his beliefs.

I also disagree that it's not time for a change. Or that organizations dont 'alter' themselves to be more modern. This isn't CYF (Christian Youth Fellowship) or FCA (Future Christian Athletes) from your HS, this is Boy SCOUTS. The point of the organization is not to raise Godly, Christian young men, but to teach young men leadership, responsibility, and citizenship. Straight from their website, under the ABOUT section:

<p><em>The Boy Scouts of America is one of the nation's largest and most prominent values-based youth development organizations. The BSA provides a program for young people that builds character, trains them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and develops personal fitness.</em></p><p><em>For nearly a century, the BSA has helped build the future leaders of this country by combining educational activities and lifelong values with fun. The Boy Scouts of America believes — and, through nearly a century of experience, knows — that helping youth is a key to building a more conscientious, responsible, and productive society.</em></p><p><em>
</em></p><p>Nowhere in there is anything about God. Nowhere. You've really got to 'scout' around (excuse the pun) on their website to find out about the need for a belief. Someone mentioned earlier that GSUSA had already taken that step in the direction of promoting equality. EVERY organization, EVER has had to re-evaluate their codes and by-laws at some point, esp. organizations as old as BSA.</p>