Controversial Topic, what do you think?

jasmineh7777

Morning ladies. I am home sick and watching The View. One of their hot topics was about a lesbian couple who wanted their child to attend a Catholic school. From what I understand, the child had been attending the school, but was not allowed to advance to the next grade and was kicked out because her mothers are lesbians.

What do you think about this?
Is the Church in the wrong?
Or should the parents of the child have anticipated this, since the institution is religious in nature?

janedoe1113a

I really think the parents should have anticipated this.  The Catholic church isn't the most leniant on homosexual couples, so I'm not sure why they would put their child in that situation in the first place.

AmoroAgain

I could have sworn we talked about this last week...?

goheels05

That's horrible.  Unexpected, maybe not.  But pretty horrible, nonetheless.

*BeachBride0410*

There is a lot I do not agree with when it comes to the Catholic church.....unfortunately, I think the parents should have seen this coming.

Night_Sprite

The Catholic Church is a very close minded organization.  i'm not surprised.  I think it was odd that they should even want to enroll a child in Catholic school because they can't be well accepted Catholics.

akhensley81

I agree that's horrible... but I was also raised Catholic and must say, I'm not surprised. I agree the parents probably should have known this was going to be a problem for the church.

AmoroAgain

Anyway, I'll play. 

I understand that it is the chruch's prerogative on whom they can and do admit.  However, there is no way they wouldn't have known the child's parents are lesbians before the child even entered the school.  Think about all the forms that get filled out, think about the way preschools are set up... wouldn't both of the parents have attended meetings and openhouses?  Spoken with the administrators?  If they weren't going to let her in, they should have done that prior to admitting the student, and not deciding later. 

jennandnickgetmarried

Sadly, private institutions often have the final say when it comes to these circumstances.

I'm not sure it should have been unexpected.

That said, I feel like if the school offered quality education, they are punishing something the child can't control - her parents being lesbians.  And I don't think that's fair.

pumpkinpumpkin

I agree with what Heels said.

KentuckyKate

They shouldn't have put themselves or their child in that situation to begin with.  I can't really take a side.  Yes it sucks and I feel for them, but a Catholic school is not a public school, and they can do whatever they want. If they didn't want their child in public school, there are other private schools that are non-parochial they could have enrolled in.

Plus, Catholic schools HAVE to adhere to the rules of the diocese or they lose funding.  I went to Catholic school and they taught abstinence education, including no masturbation, in religion class.  I can remember at one point my teacher kind of let it known discreetly that masturbation is a safer alternative for releasing sexual tension as a teenager than other forms of sexual gratification with a partner.

L-Bride

I'm actually not sure if private institutions do have that right to reject a child from their school for that reasoning. I'm not sure if it would hold up in a court of law.

Something similar happened to my friend. She and her husband had their kids enrolled in Catholic school. Long story short, her and her abusive husband get divorced and when she applied for financial aid help to keep her children in school they wouldn't help her. The Catholic school system didn't agree with her divorce and wouldn't support her. So not only were her children having to deal with the divorce, they were also forced to switch schools. It was pretty awful.

KentuckyKate

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversial-topic-think?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:56d7c52b-2c41-4fa8-8f7c-f7027fd6fa2dPost:5428f71b-0376-43d6-a6d8-b47edd888163">Re: Controversial Topic, what do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm actually not sure if private institutions do have that right to reject a child from their school for that reasoning. I'm not sure if it would hold up in a court of law. Something similar happened to my friend. She and her husband had their kids enrolled in Catholic school. Long story short, her and her abusive husband get divorced and when she applied for financial aid help to keep her children in school they woudln't help her. The Catholic school system didn't agree with her divorce and wouldn't support her. So not only were her children having to deal with the divorce, they were also forced to switch schools. It was pretty awful.
Posted by L-Bride[/QUOTE]

This is crazy to me.  I get the concept, but I went to Catholic school from K-12, and the majority of my friends' parents were divorced.

shellydiane820

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the idea of sending my kid somewhere, where I know my beliefs aren't accepted.  Wtf?

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

What do you think about this? - I am against the school's decision
Is the Church in the wrong? - I think the Catholic church's stance on homosexuality is wrong, so yes.
Or should the parents of the child have anticipated this, since the institution is religious in nature? - yes, though I don't blame them for putting their child there. I don't think it was for publicity. I am not Catholic, but I attended a Catholic high school because it was a very good college prep school. I can't blame them for wanting their daughter to get a good education. I'm sure they considered the fact that something like this might come up.

Edit - I also agree that this isn't something the kid can control, so why punish her?

jasmineh7777

I can see both sides of this one, because i am Catholic, but also very very liberal in  most of my views.
Really, I don't think it is a matter of the church being "close minded." The laws of the church are just that.

squirrly

I actually AM a bit suprised.  I figured the school would welcome the opportunity to "reprogram" the child of lesbian parents. 

Either way - I think it's crappy, but I think as a religious institution, they have the right to do almost whatever they want.  They should be compelled to show the child as promoted to the next grade, but then could choose not to allow her to re-enroll for the next school year.

L-Bride

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_controversial-topic-think?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:56d7c52b-2c41-4fa8-8f7c-f7027fd6fa2dPost:28185f17-0dae-40bd-adc5-d3ab3bd699be">Re: Controversial Topic, what do you think?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Controversial Topic, what do you think? : This is crazy to me.  I get the concept, but I went to Catholic school from K-12, and the majority of my friends' parents were divorced.
Posted by KentuckyKate[/QUOTE]

So does my sister, she has never been to public school like I went to. But I think it has to do with the school using their discretion over who they are financially helping. Since she was applying for financial aid, they said they wouldn't support her because they consider that supporting divorce. They didn't say her kids couldn't stay at the school but obviously she couldn't keep them there on her own.

ac_in_dc

Whoa, I don't understand your legal jargon, harbor girl...rational basis? strict scrutiny?

I agree with squirrly, I'm surprised that the church did this. I disagree with their stance on homosexuality, and am surprised that a homosexual couple would choose to send their kids to a catholic school where their lifestyle is seen as wrong.

But I'm surprised the church would hold a child accountable for the "sins" of a parent. Eg...DH and I didn't get married in the catholic church, but if we wanted to baptize our kid in the church, they would allow it.

harbor_girl

Sorry I tried to edit my post but it got deleted instead (and sorry about the legal jargon).  My point was that discrimination on the basis of race is more heavily scrutinized by our court system than discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, but now that I think about it more (and have had my morning coffee) those two standards are really only applied to the constitutionality of federal and state laws, not private actions.  So I'm not sure how the case would turn out in court.

ac_in_dc

Thanks. I wasn't trying to be mean, I was just curious, that's why I brought it up

golden1215

Just like AC, I'm surprised they held it against the child.

I went to Catholic school from 5th grade through university and I'm not Catholic and my parents are divorced (divorced when I was in 5th grade).  Anyway, they sent me there because the education is second to none and the teachings, although sometimes a bit much, werent different enough from our Lutheran beliefs that it mattered.

I am still not Catholic but I plan on sending my daughter to the Catholic school in our neighborhood. 

I hope, for Catholism's sake, they stop being so out of touch with society. 

polichik

There was a Law & Order about this a while ago (not that it's at all accurate or indicitive about the actual situation, but it was interesting). On the show, the parent's reasoning for wanting the child to be enrolled was that Catholicism was an important value in her life and that she wanted her child to understand the values.

Even though I think it's within a religious organization's right to denounce certain behavior, I think it's absurd that homosexuality is grounds for dismissal but that so many other activities that the Bible forbids are fine and dandy (parents who commit adultery, parents who are divorced, parents who are farmers who sow multiple crops in the same field, parents who have ever experienced lustful thoughts, children who have every disobeyed/disrespected their parents, parents/children who gossip, parents/children who have ever taken the Lord's name in vain, etc. etc. etc. ETC.). According to the Bible, those are all "sins," and all "sins" are equal in the eyes of God (James 2:10). It's hypocritical.

If an institution wants to truly follow their religion to every letter, that's fine with me. But choosing one "sin" as unacceptable but looking the other way for everything else is offensive, both to the families affected as well as to the religion itself.

Rant over.

mocha beans

While I think it's awful of the school to do that, the parents had to realize that there was a distinct possibility of that happening.  Many catholic institutions are not known for widespread acceptance of gays and lesbians.  I don't know why a parent would want to send their child to a school that is effectively going to tell the kid that their parents are sinners.

harbor_girl

ac - no problem.  It's actually one of the more fascinating parts of American constitutional law (at least to me).  If you wikipedia "suspect classification" you can read more about how our court system analyzes different types of government discrimination (race vs. gender vs. sexual orientation) by different standards.  But yeah, anyway, since this has to do with discrimination by a private institution, and not a discriminatory state or federal law, I'm not sure how the case would turn out.  I imagine the Catholic school would probably win because the free exercise of religion First Amendment protections would still be given a lot of weight.

And polichik, I completely agree.  Most churches seem incredibly hypocritical in that way.  But I just doubt that those parents could win in court.

jasmineh7777

At the Catholic schools here, children attend mass regularly. So, I don't see why one would send their child to a Catholic school if you aren't Catholic. Unless you don't mind your child being required to attend mass, which I think might be confusing for a child.

Poli- I see what you are saying about picking and choosing in regards to sin. Catholics recognize that everyone sins, but believe that people must repent those sins, confess, and try to do better. Homosexuals do not "repent" for their lifestyle. The Church (imho, can't speak for the whole Church obviously) basically thinks that is is better to deny homosexual urges than to choose to indulge that desire.
This isn't my personal opinion,  but it is what I have gleaned from conversations with my die-hard Catholic family.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

We had mass once a month in my Catholic school. I, as well as the other non-Catholics, simple sat out during communion. It wasn't confusing. I mean, I was 14-18 when I was at that school but AFAIK, they do the same thing in the elementary school. Our school, though obviously affiliated with the local diocese, was not a parish school, though. But we did have a chaplain. While I was aware of some differences in my religion vs. Catholicism previously, the religion classes were interesting to me. I was also going through confirmation in my own church (Presbyterian) my freshman year of high school. Oh, and my dad was raised Catholic.

Jasmine, did the story say these people are suing the school? Because I, along with others, see them losing that one. Or was it more of a "get-the-message-out" kind of story?

Soon-to-be Mrs. Vogt

Do I think this child should be punished? No. It's like AC said where I'm from...just because the parents may sin doesn't mean the child can't be a part of the religion (or whatever it offers).

One should also realize that all religion is created by man, and man is flawed. Expecting any religion to be perfect is a little ridiculous in my head. It upsets me when people choose to say that an entire religion (or Church) is wrong. That's a vast generalization. You may not agree with their beliefs, and you are not forced to believe (or practice) them.

I think one has to grow up Catholic to understand why some of the laws/rules are so strict and unchanging. And, even though I don't actively practice anymore, I feel very comforted by the unchanging nature of the Catholic church - it shows me the religion/Church is enduring and that the leaders of the religion truly believe in its principles.

Anyway...I do feel badly for this little girl and her family. I obviously don't agree with the Church on this point, and I find it horrible that they would hurt a child in this way. I think this particular school has forgotten how to be Christian.

jasmineh7777

I'm not sure Mery. Although, I don't think they could win that case.
I think that gay marriage should be legalized. One point of opposition is that legalizing gay marriage threatens Christian churches. Now, I don't believe that at all. However, if these women were to sue the church and win, it would, imo, be a step in the wrong direction, because it would be the law trying to change the practices of a certain religion. Hence, people could say, that the next step is forcing churches to marry homosexuals.
I just found it interesting, because this is a constant debate in my family. I think that marriage is a legal union, and only a spiritual union for those with spiritual beliefs.
Legally, I think at least, the school would have the right to say no to any family that isn't Catholic.

andyandhillary

First, I want to make clear that this is NOT typical of the Catholic Church AT ALL.  Each Catholic school system has their own set of rules.  I 100% believe what this school system did was wrong.  It was un-Christian.  There is no place for publicly embarrassing anyone, especially a child. 

To be expected?  No.  Those parents should never expect such disrespect and lack of Christian love (love in general too of course) at a religious school. 

I went to Catholic school for much of my education.  There was a boy in the year below me whose mother was a lesbian and she had a partner.  It was always known that this was his situation, although he did have a father too (they divorced obviously).  His mother was in her relationship since he was a little boy and both his k-8 and our high school never treated him any differently or his moms (and dad) to my knowledge. 

I think some of you guys may not be fully educated about the Catholic Church's stance.  It's not that homosexual people are bad or really are any worse than anyone else.  We all sin.  If someone is chaste and homosexual then they are not "bad".  If they act on their feelings it's the same, really, as if a heterosexual person was "unchaste".  The reason why homosexual couples are frowned upon is because they are obviously acting on their feelings and being unchaste because it is outside of a religious marriage but it's the same as if any unmarried hetero couple did it.  Gay marriage is wrong because it goes against, in part, what marriage is there for. 

I am a practicing Catholic but I think marriage should be left to religion and the state stay completely out of it.  If gay people want to be in a state "union" then I am totally down.  We could use more love in the world.  I understand the Church's stance, however, and appreciate that they don't change their theology willy nilly.

I'm sorry if some of you had bad experiences with the Catholic church in particular but please be mindful that these same issues happen in any kind of an organization, not just religious and certainly not just Catholic.  I get quite ticked when people claim that Protestant denominations are so much more tolerant.  That's not even remotely true nor should you ever make such huge generalization.

jasmineh7777

Andy- I think we disagree on the point of marriage. If "marriage" is purely religious, then why are two Atheists considered to be "married" when it has no religious significance to them whatsoever? Marriage is not a term owned by any church, and people should be allowed to marry no matter what their sexual orientation. The Church does not have to acknowledge that marriage in any way, just as the church will not recognize a second marriage when the first hasn't been annulled.
"Marriage" is primarily a legal union. It may have religious and spiritual connotations for some, but definitely not all. Concerning "marriage" I think religion should stay out of it, and the law should not be based on religious views.