Just a "piece of paper"?

LisaChris2011

Obviously all of us on here believe marriage is more than "just a piece of paper" because we're married or about to be married.  However, I had a recent conversation with a collegue that left me tongue-tied, as she has a great argument about marriage/long-term commitments.  She has been with her boyfriend for 7 years.  They are fully committed to one another, yet she does not want to get married.  She is happy with the way they are, and she quotes "why do I need a piece of paper to tell me how important or valid or committed our relationship is"?  I responded, "well its easier to leave a relationship when you're not married.  When things get bad, you're more commited to work through those things when you're married."  (paraphasing).  She continued to argue that my and my FI's love together isn't any stronger than her and her guy's.

So, taking aside the health benefits, reduced insurance and/or other economical advantages of getting married, why DO we get married?  Isn't our love just as intimate and amazing without that "piece of paper"?  For me, its because I'm a traditionalist.  I want to have children, wake up to someone every morning, and do the will of God with a life time partner I call a husband.

ETA: Realized that intro was a bit long...but needed to form my thoughts accordingly before the end question!

emilyinchile

Societal construct. To me, marriage is more than dating. I understand that some people don't feel that way, but because I was raised in a society that for the most part says that marriage is the most serious commitment, that's what I believe. Objectively marriage makes no difference in our emotions, and for other people it's not necessary, but I wanted to make the most serious commitment that I knew how to make with H, and because of how I was raised, that's marriage.

nurse.misty

I don't try to rationalize why we are getting married. We are getting married because we want to. It's a choice we made together that suited us and the future we want to have. If somebody doesn't want to get married, well that's fine too. It's their decision to make. Only the couple can decide what is right for them.

TheCranberry

I think why people choose to get married or not to get married is personal to each couple.  I agree with your friend that the marriage license doesn't make my love for FI more special or stronger than someone else's love for their partner just because we plan to get married.  I think each couple can define their relationship and don't owe any explanation to anyone on how they choose to see or recognize it.

I have friends who don't plan to get married, and I always advise them to see a family lawyer to make sure they get the "bundle of rights" that come with being married: inheritance, medical decision-making, joint ownership, etc.

TheCranberry

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:ea035df4-00f8-4221-b785-e46841c53d92">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree with you for me marriage is a life long commitment. But for someone who has no problem with getting divorced a few years down the road when "their love runs out" as I've heard people say. <strong>They're better off not getting married... there isn't really a point to it.</strong>
Posted by Hippinhipster[/QUOTE]

How can you make that call for someone else?  Just because you see marriage as a life long commitment doesn't mean that people who don't shouldn't get married.

LisaChris2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:65e620ed-08f6-4400-9c06-27dde3bbac83">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]We got married because it is important to me, and in my own mind, it is a bigger commitment for me than could be possible without being married.  However, for my H, it really is just a piece of paper.  He married me because he wants to spend his life with me and knew that marriage was important to me.  He could have very happily spent the rest of his life with me but not married, also. <strong>  "She continued to argue that my and my FI's love together isn't any stronger than her and her guy's". She's probably right.  Unless you live in their relationship, it's pretty presumptuous to think that your love/relationship is stronger than hers, simply because you decided to get married.</strong>  If marriage isn't important to them, it isn't important to them.   
Posted by MyNameIsNot[/QUOTE]

I didn't assume it, but this statement she had made was the one that left me tongue-tied because she is indeed right.

LisaChris2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:618861fe-2eb8-4e15-bda3-5fc9b703adf1">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Just a "piece of paper"? : How can you make that call for someone else?  <strong>Just because you see marriage as a life long commitment doesn't mean that people who don't shouldn't get married.
</strong>Posted by TheCranberry[/QUOTE]

But if you don't see marriage as a life long commitment (which is what marriage is, right?  Or is that what society tells us?), then why get married?  For the benefits?  Ok.  That's fine.  But any legal document can fix that (depending on the situation). 

jemmini6

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:f7f1a986-6331-4b4e-b086-13d395e43249">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]My mom explained in once - when she talked to her then-boyfriend about getting married - and it really made sense. It's a public declaration of the love you feel for each other. It doesn't change your relationship. But legally and socially announcing it has power as well. For those who are religious, it obviously is important to have God consecrate the marriage and to have the support of your religious community. But for those of us who have secualr marriages, I still think there's a great community aspect to being married. Other people's perceptions of your relationship change. THEY take it more seriously, even if you see the relationship as being the same. The GOVERNMENT takes your relationship more seriously - there are literally over 1,000 benefits extended to married couples at the federal level, including but not limited to inheritence, next of kin, medical decision making, etc. For some that's not important. For others it is. I think it's that simple. Edit: I will say that my dad lives with his girlfriend and is perfectly content to never remarry. He owns property, has investments, etc. He doesn't need or want the legal complications of an official marriage. They'll work things out together their own way.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

You said it much better than I did.  YOU can know that you are in love and committed, but marriage also serves to let EVERYONE know that you are in love and committed (of course, people have gotten married for other reasons, aren't that committed and have affairs, etc, but you get the gist)

LisaChris2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:7cd033e3-78fb-4599-96a2-c7b76bfba456">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree with everything Mery said. One of the main reasons I want to get married is so people take our relationship seriously. I believe you can be every bit as committed to eachother without the "piece of paper," <strong>but as evidenced by the OP, not everyone will take your relationship seriously.
</strong>Posted by annakb8[/QUOTE]

Did I give the impression I don't take my collegue's relationship seriously? If had it was not intended.  We were on the subject of marriage and I found her debate convincing and it left me tongue-tied for someone who is about to be married and believes marriage is more than a piece of paper.

aragx6

From a benefit angle, there often isn't another alternative to marriage. Unless we're married I wouldn't ever be eligible to be on FI's employer-provided insurance.

Something to think about if you might want to go back to school, take an internship, stay home with the kids after they're born, etc.

Hippinhipster

I agree with you for me marriage is a life long commitment. But for someone who has no problem with getting divorced a few years down the road when "their love runs out" as I've heard people say. They're better off not getting married... there isn't really a point to it.

Celles

I agree with your colleague (eta: and Cranberry.  I really, really like how she worded it.)

I am getting married because the love of my life is a Canadian citizen and the US doesn't offer family-based immigration to domestic or commonlaw partners -- only to fiance(e)s and spouses.  Also, he is a traditionalist and believes as you do, so I know he wouldn't have been content with "living in sin" (although neither of us believes in the concept of sin, per se).

MyNameIsNot

We got married because it is important to me, and in my own mind, it is a bigger commitment for me than could be possible without being married.  However, for my H, it really is just a piece of paper.  He married me because he wants to spend his life with me and knew that marriage was important to me.  He could have very happily spent the rest of his life with me but not married, also.  

"She continued to argue that my and my FI's love together isn't any stronger than her and her guy's".

She's probably right.  Unless you live in their relationship, it's pretty presumptuous to think that your love/relationship is stronger than hers, simply because you decided to get married.  If marriage isn't important to them, it isn't important to them.   

aragx6

I have lived with my FI for nearly 6 years now and just celebrated our 7th anniversary. If marriage is about building a life together, living by a set of similar core values and sharing a sense of both emotional and financial dependedness, then we're already married.

Our plan has always been to marry eventually but neither of us have ever been in any hurry, and I never wanted to get married before at least my mid-20s anyway.

My boss isn't married but has a child, owns a house and considers her partner her husband in just about every way.

For me, I'd like to be married, to call Rich my husband and to continue our great life together, but honestly? Yes, in some ways I think it's just a piece of paper.

georgia_bride09

For some people, marriage is a larger commitment, but I also know some couples who are just as commited that aren't married.

"She continued to argue that my and my FI's love together isn't any stronger than her and her guy's." Why would it be?

Personally, I got married because I wanted to. But I was already fully commited to my husband.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

My mom explained in once - when she talked to her then-boyfriend about getting married - and it really made sense. It's a public declaration of the love you feel for each other. It doesn't change your relationship. But legally and socially announcing it has power as well. For those who are religious, it obviously is important to have God consecrate the marriage and to have the support of your religious community. But for those of us who have secualr marriages, I still think there's a great community aspect to being married. Other people's perceptions of your relationship change. THEY take it more seriously, even if you see the relationship as being the same. The GOVERNMENT takes your relationship more seriously - there are literally over 1,000 benefits extended to married couples at the federal level, including but not limited to inheritence, next of kin, medical decision making, etc.

For some that's not important. For others it is. I think it's that simple.

Edit: I will say that my dad lives with his girlfriend and is perfectly content to never remarry. He owns property, has investments, etc. He doesn't need or want the legal complications of an official marriage. They'll work things out together their own way.

jemmini6

Marriage isn't 'just a piece of paper' to me.  True, you sign a piece of paper to be have your marriage recognized for legal purposes, but that's not the ultimate goal of the act of getting married.  To me, the point is that you are publicly declaring your commitment to one another...you know the whole vows thing "richer or poorer, sickness and health, till death to us part, etc etc".  That's not to say that you can't be just as committed and just as in love if you aren't married, but if you are committed, why wouldn't you make it "official" so to speak. (I'm not saying that people don't have their own personal reasons not to, or that they have to be married to be valid, this is just my personal view on it for my personal relationship)

annakb8

I agree with everything Mery said. One of the main reasons I want to get married is so people take our relationship seriously. I believe you can be every bit as committed to eachother without the "piece of paper," but as evidenced by the OP, not everyone will take your relationship seriously.

mica178

I agree with everything Mery said.

Moneypenny424

Mery really said it best.  There is a reason that same-sex couples are fighting for their rights to marry.  Legally, marriage is quite different than having a boyfriend.  The government views it differently as well.  Heck, businesses view it differently as well (ie spouses as free optional drivers for rental cars).

I agree in many ways that marriage is an antiquated concept, but it is a concept I'm pleased with in my life.  Like PP said, she'll need many more pieces of paper to even come close to approximating marriage, ie wills, hospital visitation, etc.

Bubbalub

I also agree with what Mery said. We wanted to publicly declare our committment to each other. Ours was not a religious church ceremony, but there was an aspect of faith intertwined in our ceremony that, for us, added an extra layer to our committment. We had already been together 8 years, knew we would spend the rest of our lives together and wanted children. Marriage is our way of showing that to the world.

Additionally, like Money touched on, the legal rights associated automatically with marriage are not easy to gain without that government recognition of "legal spouse". I am automatically his next-of-kin, the one to make medical decisions if he can't, responsible for his debt, counted in his insurance, along with hundreds of other things. I don't have to fill out any forms other than the ones associated with marriage if I don't want to. Without the government recognizing me as his legal spouse, I would have to do the legal paperwork for each and every thing, which can be a huge undertaking.

Meg1979

I agree with Mery. 

redheadfsu

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:69864614-a7b2-4394-b29e-5b2736f7f46a">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Just a "piece of paper"? : But if you don't see marriage as a life long commitment (which is what marriage is, right?  Or is that what society tells us?), then why get married?  For the benefits?  Ok.  That's fine.  But any legal document can fix that (depending on the situation). 
Posted by LisaChris2011[/QUOTE]

Um, not taxes. There are some rights that only getting married provides. Yes, you can get legal documents for a lot of those benefits, but not all.

Hippinhipster

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:618861fe-2eb8-4e15-bda3-5fc9b703adf1">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Just a "piece of paper"? : How can you make that call for someone else?  Just because you see marriage as a life long commitment doesn't mean that people who don't shouldn't get married.
Posted by TheCranberry[/QUOTE]

I just don't see why someone would waste time and money on a wedding when they know they wont stay married. I had a friend at work I was talking to and she's getting married next year but told me she knew she wouldn't be married for long. Her reason was she couldn't really stand him already and knew she'd be sick of him in a few years! What that??? Why even get married? I really can't see it as anything but pointless

Bubbalub

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:cafc07dd-6c74-4e4b-bb05-2657c153fcd6">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Just a "piece of paper"? : I just don't see why someone would waste time and money on a wedding when they know they wont stay married. <strong>I had a friend at work I was talking to and she's getting married next year but told me she knew she wouldn't be married for long</strong>. Her reason was she couldn't really stand him already and knew she'd be sick of him in a few years! What that??? Why even get married? I really can't see it as anything but pointless
Posted by Hippinhipster[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I see that as a rather rare thing. Most people going into a marriage aren't thinking "Eh, I'll give it a few years then see." Most people are expecting to be married for life. Even those that later get divorced. I can tell you that when I got married the first time I 100% expected to live the rest of my life with him. When I got divorced it was so very difficult as I never thought I would go through that.

I just can't imagine there are too many people in the world that think along the lines of your friend.

aragx6

^That's wildly different than someone being open to the possibility that down the line it might end in divorce.

Yes, if you already dislike your future husband and know it won't last you're a moron for marrying.

ETA: I should have quoted hippinhipster's post instead of using the ^ given the timewarp issues.

LisaChris2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:89ae380d-0bfc-4cc9-893d-e9eddc26c5dc">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think that anybody who has not been in a long term marriage can really understand how different that is from just dating with benefits.  The piece of paper argument is ages old.  I heard it in the '70s from men who didn't want to commit. Fortunately for me, I did not marry the grand passion, love of my life who was afraid of commitment.  I married my best friend instead.  We have been happily married for almost 35 years, and the only thing I would change is to marry him sooner.  I could have done so, if I hadn't been so silly and unrealistic. We are religious.  We are commited.  We know each other's faults well, and do not deny that they are there.  We respect each other.  We want each other's happiness.  We agree on major decisions like money and plans for our future. Could we have this without marriage?  Maybe.  I doubt it.  There were so many times when I was so angry at him, I wanted to walk away, but I stayed and worked it out because we were married.  There were the children, as well as our families.  That big commitment made all the difference. You will hear lots of arguments about marriage being obsolete in our society.  They come from people who have, sadly, never experienced a good one.  I am so blessed. I am the voice of experience.
Posted by CMGr[/QUOTE]

Beautiful post.  Thank you for sharing.

Ghoti

Geez I can't figure out which is the OP, but I'll answer the title-

Lets just say I'm not a romantic, that I do believe it's just a piece of paper. That license doesn't do anything for a relationship that isn't already there.

Ghoti

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:050bd1fc-f73c-4225-bd67-6c1d1d82fe0f">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Just a "piece of paper"? : When you have been married for 35 years, you will realize that what you thought was "love" in the beginning of your marriage is nothing to the love you will feel later in life.  That kind of love only comes with lots of time and work.  It can't be therein the beginning.  It grows with time.  The most romantic people in the world are senior citizens who have been together for years. 
Posted by CMGr[/QUOTE]
Seriously, I don't need to be lectured on how superior you feel your love/commitment is. We are in love, not "love". You have no idea what we've been through as a couple. And out love is still not affected whatsoever by a government issued license. 

Ghoti

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:dd2ccad1-c4cf-437c-a657-788f44253f4b">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]I didn't expect you to understand.
Posted by CMGr[/QUOTE]
 <div>Love evolves. Anyone who is in a committed relationship knows this. It doesn't mean that any stage is better than the rest, each one has its highs and lows. Your 35 years of "love" is no better than our 3 years. </div>

mrjcre2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_just-piece-of-paper?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:5aba7853-b221-40da-9c47-93ec44400b35Post:89ae380d-0bfc-4cc9-893d-e9eddc26c5dc">Re: Just a "piece of paper"?</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think that anybody who has not been in a long term marriage can really understand how different that is from just dating with benefits.  The piece of paper argument is ages old.  I heard it in the '70s from men who didn't want to commit. Fortunately for me, I did not marry the grand passion, love of my life who was afraid of commitment.  I married my best friend instead.  We have been happily married for almost 35 years, and the only thing I would change is to marry him sooner.  I could have done so, if I hadn't been so silly and unrealistic. We are religious.  <strong>We are commited.  We know each other's faults well, and do not deny that they are there.  We respect each other.  We want each other's happiness.</strong> <strong> We agree on major decisions like money and plans for our future.</strong> <strong>Could we have this without marriage?  Maybe.  I doubt it.</strong>  There were so many times when I was so angry at him, I wanted to walk away, but I stayed and worked it out because we were married.  There were the children, as well as our families.  That big commitment made all the difference. You will hear lots of arguments about marriage being obsolete in our society.  They come from people who have, sadly, never experienced a good one.  I am so blessed. I am the voice of experience.
Posted by CMGr[/QUOTE]

Respectfully, I disagree with this. Why would getting married all of a sudden mean you can now agree on major decisions like money and plans about your future, but you couldn't do that before? Sure, my FI and I have only been together for about 4 years, but it is partially BECAUSE of our teamwork on major decisions that led us to the path of marriage. Money can be such a big issue in a marriage, why wouldn't that kind of stuff be worked out, discussed, and planned together as a team beforehand? My FI and I share all of our plans for the future and agree on major things together all the time. We are a team. Partners. He lost his job a couple of years ago, and I became the sole breadwinner in the house. The needs of him/us FAR outweighed the needs of me at that point, and I made sure we were both taken care of because he is my partner in this life and I would never let him drown. We work together with financial matters to pay down debt, save for big things (trips, Christmas, wedding, house, etc.), and prepare for the out of the ordinary. Being married certainly makes some things easier, but to say that your relationship couldn't be strong or a team without marriage is, sorry, a bunch of crap.