Is it discrimination?

chelseamb11

This is a slight spin-off to yesterday's thread about the teacher fired for having IVF.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/20/vanderbilts-policy-change-confronting-discrimination-or-infringing-on-religious-freedom/

CN:  Vanderbilt University is implementing a new policy that student organizations are not allowed to discriminate its members and leaders based on religious affiliation.  The religious clubs are upset because this means that an atheist could lead a Christian group, a Muslim could lead a Jewish group, etc.  The school claims that no clubs should be allowed to discriminate.  Some have brought up the fact that the school makes an exception for gender discrimination for sororities/fraternities (girls only in sororities, boys only in fraternities) because the very definition of the groups is based on gender.


On the one hand, if sororities/frats are allowed to do it, I think the religious clubs should be able to do it too.  Afterall, it is a specific organization for a specific religion, and by the sounds of it, they have organizations that fit a lot of different religious lifestyles, so it's not like anyone has nowhere to go.

However, I don't see why people are so worried about it anyway.  Why would someone who is Atheist want to join a religioius group anyway?  Even with the rule in place, I doubt they'd get this influx of members/leaders from other religious ways of life anyway.

WDYT?

baystateapple

It doesn't make any sense.  Why would an atheist want to lead a Christian organization?

ootmother2

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_is-it-discrimination?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:5e202455-82d5-4235-b765-d1d394ffac41Post:a2f316b5-4778-4c9a-8884-bbc1664b0e84">Is it discrimination?</a>:
[QUOTE]This is a slight spin-off to yesterday's thread about the teacher fired for having IVF. <a href="http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/20/vanderbilts-policy-change-confronting-discrimination-or-infringing-on-religious-freedom/" rel="nofollow">http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/20/vanderbilts-policy-change-confronting-discrimination-or-infringing-on-religious-freedom/</a> CN:  Vanderbilt University is implementing a new policy that student organizations are not allowed to discriminate its members and leaders based on religious affiliation.  The religious clubs are upset because this means that an atheist could lead a Christian group, a Muslim could lead a Jewish group, etc.  The school claims that no clubs should be allowed to discriminate.  Some have brought up the fact that the school makes an exception for gender discrimination for sororities/fraternities (girls only in sororities, boys only in fraternities) because the very definition of the groups is based on gender. On the one hand, if sororities/frats are allowed to do it, I think the religious clubs should be able to do it too.  Afterall, it is a specific organization for a specific religion, and by the sounds of it, they have organizations that fit a lot of different religious lifestyles, so it's not like anyone has nowhere to go. However, I don't see why people are so worried about it anyway.  Why would someone who is Atheist want to join a religioius group anyway?  Even with the rule in place, I doubt they'd get this influx of members/leaders from other religious ways of life anyway. WDYT?
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

Private clubs are allowed to exclude people just as private organizations are.

What's  your question?

MyUserName1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_is-it-discrimination?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:5e202455-82d5-4235-b765-d1d394ffac41Post:1a33617a-7070-4ae8-a93e-9e4267b179db">Re: Is it discrimination?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Is it discrimination? : Private clubs are allowed to exclude people just as private organizations are. What's  your question?
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

...no they aren't anymore.  That's her point. 

I think it's a strange thing for them to regulate, but like others have said, how likely is it than an athiest is going to insist on leading the Baptist club?

SarahPLiz

I don't see how it would be an issue. I'm pretty sure people in club leadership positions are voted in, no? So if you don't vote in an athiest to lead your Christian group, I don't see how this is infringing on their rights. Its not like the university is appointing the leader. 

Starqueg

It sounds like lip-service to anti-discrimination laws, since in most clubs leaders are elected by members.  Sure, an atheist could join a Christian group, but would the other members put him/her in charge?  Probably not.  At least that's how the clubs at my school worked.  We held elections annually.  You create a platform and run on it.  Of course, in some clubs it's really a popularity contest, but that's life in general.

Avion22

I guess the point is that if, for some reason, a Christian wanted to join a Muslim club (or vice versa, or whatever faith), they should be allowed to join.   For instance, say there's an inter-faith couple, and one wants to join the club of the other's religion to learn more about it or to spend more time with their SO.  Should the club be allowed to exclude them?   I don't think so.

What if a white person wanted to join a club for African Americans?  Or a Hispanic Heritage club?   I don't think there are a lot of people who would necessarily want to, but I don't think the clubs (funded by University money) should be allowed to exclude people from membership based on race, faith, etc.

ootmother2

Everyone may TRY but it can't really be enforced 100%.  I'm not just about the most receemt  events  You can make all the laws you want and it still won't work in every case
ETA: POS laptop

pokepoke27

I don't see the problem with allowing others into those types of clubs. And like PPs have mentioned - the officals are elected so if there ever was an Aithest in charge of a Christian leadership club then I would question the eligibility of other members as well.

I don't see a lot of people wanting to join clubs they are not technically elligible for - but I could understand an Islamic club wanting to keep it purely Islamic. However, in my experience, if a Catholic was interested in learning more about the Jewish faith (for example) the Jewish club would be more than happy to allow the Catholic to sit in on a few meetings to gain a better understanding. 

Bonzo2011

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[QUOTE]It sounds like lip-service to anti-discrimination laws, since in most clubs leaders are elected by members.  Sure, an atheist could join a Christian group, but would the other members put him/her in charge?  Probably not.  At least that's how the clubs at my school worked.  We held elections annually.  You create a platform and run on it.  Of course, in some clubs it's really a popularity contest, but that's life in general.
Posted by Starqueg[/QUOTE]



This. The Hillel (Jewish college organization) at my school was welcoming of anyone at their events. But when it came time for elections, only Jewish members ever ran for the leadership positions.

midgetthemighty

I don't know if this is true for every college campus out there, but when I took my World Religions class, one of our assignments was to go to different religious clubs on campus and experience it. No one had any issues attending.

I was also a member of the Baptist Campus Ministry, Wesley Foundation and Christian Student Fellowship. I'm not Baptist and there were non-Methodists in the Wesley Foundation (a Methodist org.). It all worked just fine.

So basically I don't see the big deal.

nextrightthing

If an organization excludes people based on their religious beliefs, then yeah, it is discrimination.  I agree with PPs that this sounds like the school is doing lip service to anti-discrimination law/policy.  Is it based on some sort of discrimination that occurred at Vandy? 

RupertPenny

I think Vanderbilt is stupid to do this. It just seems kind of unnecessary. However, I'm pretty sure any student organizations could get around this if they did not receive any university funding/use university property for meetings. So if you REALLY don't want any Jews in the FCA take the meeting off campus and stop taking university money. 

chelseamb11

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[QUOTE]Everyone may TRY but it can't really be enforced 100%.  I'm not just about the most receemt  events  You can make all the laws you want and it still won't work in every case ETA: POS laptop
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

Well the point is that groups will lose university funding if they discriminate based on religion.

I also feel like any religious group would (or at least should) be open to members of different religions.  Some people might join out of sheer interest for being educated on the religion itself, not necessarily to practice it.  I've been a Christian my whole life, but I once went to synagogue with a Jewish friend of mine just because I was interested in learning more.  It was really cool actually.

I also agree on the voting thing, with voting leaders in.

Idk I just feel like the rule should have already been put in place if it was that big of an issue.  And if it's not an issue (which they didn't say anything in the article that it was), then why make a rule to fix something that's not even broken? All it does is piss people off.

ootmother2

"Should have" is exactly the point

nextrightthing

Maybe Vandy is trying to improve its reputation for inclusivity.

Matty143

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[QUOTE]I think Vanderbilt is stupid to do this. It just seems kind of unnecessary. However, I'm pretty sure any student organizations could get around this if they did not receive any university funding/use university property for meetings. So if you REALLY don't want any Jews in the FCA take the meeting off campus and stop taking university money. 
Posted by RupertPenny[/QUOTE]

I agree with this.
Also, and pardon my ignorance, but how much money do these clubs really get from the University?
Maybe this is my UO, but I think this is just a waste of time and energy.
For the other reasons listed by PPs regarding voting, etc.

strlzfan11

Where I work/went to school, organizations that don't use university funding for any of their events are still required to abide by university policies in order to be a recognized organization.  Recognized organizations are required to use the university's banking system

rardito

I have a minor in religious studies (I am an atheist) and my New Testament class was taught by an atheist...although that isn't a club.  I'm not sure why he wanted to teach it, but I have a minor in RS because religion fascinates me. 

RupertPenny

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_is-it-discrimination?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:5e202455-82d5-4235-b765-d1d394ffac41Post:2c00c486-1f90-4673-8d91-4033f38e38c1">Re: Is it discrimination?</a>:
[QUOTE]Where I work/went to school, organizations that don't use university funding for any of their events are still required to abide by university policies in order to be a recognized organization.  Recognized organizations are required to use the university's banking system
Posted by strlzfan11[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>OK, I didn't know this. I wonder if it's like this everywhere. I mean, like I said before, I think Vandy is being dumb. It seems like they are trying to fix something that wasn't broken in the first place. And I'm sure all of the pissed off orgs are valuable to the university so it would be a shame if they all had to go underground. </div><div>
</div><div>But on the other hand, this rule is not going to stop like minded individuals from being able to congregate and talk about Jesus or whatever. They just won't get funds or recognition from the University. 

</div>

aggiebug

Did you know Vanderbilt was established as a Methodist college?  

I feel like this is just one more step for them to hide from their history quite frankly.

Will this policy effect leadership in those relighious organizations? probably not.  But these policies are the lateest in a series of changes that have pushed many of their nationally offiliated religious organizations to remove their presence from that campus.  Which I think will change the dynamics of that university.  

LeiselEB

I don't really think this is a big deal. Why an atheist would want to be part of a religious organization is beyond me, but would it really cause a problem if they did? Inclusion of members of different faiths does not mean the group's focus or mission has to change. 

Edit: My point being that having a rule on the books saying a club cannot discriminate if they want to get university funding/be an organized club doesn't necessarily change anything about said club.

strlzfan11

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_is-it-discrimination?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:5e202455-82d5-4235-b765-d1d394ffac41Post:a2f316b5-4778-4c9a-8884-bbc1664b0e84">Is it discrimination?</a>:
[QUOTE]Some have brought up the fact that the school makes an exception for gender discrimination for sororities/fraternities (girls only in sororities, boys only in fraternities) because the very definition of the groups is based on gender. Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to point out that Title IX allows this to happen because there are equivalencies on both sides of the male/female spectrum. 

So let's say there's a Christian fraternity on campus.  There must be a women's equivalent in order for them to be recognized as such, otherwise they'd need to adjust their constitution in order to allow women to be members (even if no women actually join).

nextrightthing

Have national religious organizations pulled their branches from Vandy because of this?  That is ridic. 

aggiebug

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[QUOTE]Have national religious organizations pulled their branches from Vandy because of this?  That is ridic. 
Posted by nextrightthing[/QUOTE]



yes because vandy has made it very clear it does not want them there. like I said this is ONE policy change in a long line of changes

jemmini6

Could there have been ONE incident at the school that led them to create this rule?  For example, if one Muslim student was turned away from one Christian club, they could have filed a complaint that spurred the university to make this rule.  Most of the other clubs on campus probably have never had an issue, but sometimes all it takes is one to create a new rule.  Just a possibility, but still, I don't see the big deal because like PP's have mentioned, it probably won't change a single thing about most of the clubs anyways.

[Deleted User]

I'm joining the discussion a little late, but there was actually a debate over this at my alma mater a few months back (UNC-Chapel Hill).  A kid was kicked out of the Christian acappella group on campus because it was revealed he was gay.  The main issue people had was that the group is supposed to be non-denominational and, as some denominations accept gay members, people said that their bylaws did not justify them removing him from the club.  The larger spread affect, however, was a general debate as to whether groups that had charters/rules that seemed contrary to the University's non-discrimination policy should receive university funding (not all clubs at UNC do). 

Honestly, I don't know which side I come down on.  On the one hand, I do think that private groups should be able to make their own rules.  On the other, if a university has a non-discrimination policy (I don't know if Vandy does or not...), then I would think that the groups, as entities underneath the larger University, would need to abide by those rules in order to receive funding.

edited for pronoun issues...

DNAtime

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[QUOTE]In Response to Is it discrimination? : I just wanted to point out that Title IX allows this to happen because there are equivalencies on both sides of the male/female spectrum.  So let's say there's a Christian fraternity on campus.  There must be a women's equivalent in order for them to be recognized as such, otherwise they'd need to adjust their constitution in order to allow women to be members (even if no women actually join).
Posted by strlzfan11[/QUOTE]
I was going to mention this Title 9 allows for activities to be split by gender if there are male and female equivilant options.  BUT if there isn't (like football and cheerleading for example do no offer male and female teams then anyone regardless of gender can join that team.

I think one could argue that some students aren't offered a religious club that they could join, and all clubs could turn them away and those students are left with nothing.  In that case, title 9 would support such a rule.

I hope that made sense.

Frankly, I don't think this is a big deal. Like some PPs stated. Wouldn't you want to include others who are interested in learning about your beliefs. Not all members are automatically leaders.

Gabrielle76

Honestly, clubs shouldn't be allowed to discriminate.  Religious tolerance is a central tenant of American values (weather or not they are frequently practiced by Americans), so there shouldn't be a legal way to push someone away based on religion. 

I think it stems from an idea that a lot of the christians I know seem to have, that atheists are waiting around, trying to much things up for christians.  Of course that's not true, as an atheist I can promise that I have better things to do than annoy/attempt to convert/push around christians.  I would never in a million years try to gain leadership in their club, and I hope they would never try to gain leadership in the secular organizations I take part in. 

LeiselEB

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[QUOTE]Honestly, clubs shouldn't be allowed to discriminate.  Religious tolerance is a central tenant of American values (weather or not they are frequently practiced by Americans), so there shouldn't be a legal way to push someone away based on religion.  I think it stems from an idea that a lot of the christians I know seem to have, that atheists are waiting around, trying to much things up for christians.  Of course that's not true, as an atheist I can promise that I have better things to do than annoy/attempt to convert/push around christians.  I would never in a million years try to gain leadership in their club, and I hope they would never try to gain leadership in the secular organizations I take part in. 
Posted by Gabrielle76[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>But the issue of clubs/groups/organizations being allowed to select their members is not a religious issue. It can be an issue for country clubs, for instance. This case happens to discuss religious groups, but the two issues are separate. Religious tolerance has nothing to do with it, generally.

</div>

sbelle85

The concern I have is people joining a religious organization to challenge it or make a mockery of it, thus interfering with the ability of the other members to freely practice their religion without harassment at their own meetings. People claim this doesn't happen but I know from personal experience that it does.

There are all kinds of college clubs that "discriminate," a.k.a. have membership requirements. Invitation-only fraternities/sororities. Any organization that is only open to people in a certain major or with a certain GPA. Service organizations which would do wonders on a resume but are invitation-only. Regardless of their reason, the fact is that these are clubs which only allow certain people to join. I don't think religious groups should be denied that courtesy when it is extended to many other groups on campus.

Freedom of religion and anti-religious discrimination laws were intended to give people the ability to freely practice their religion without punishment or government interference; not to prohibit them from being able to do so by slapping them with lawsuits or consequences if their beliefs offend someone else. Telling a religious group that they have to allow members who don't share that religion changes what the group is about. We might as well make them all non-denominational "motivational discussion" groups.