Help - I can't play with my puppy

KellyBrian2013

This thread makes me sad... so many training misconceptions and myths. My suggestion? Hire a good, private inhome dog trainer who can see the behaviors in person and witness your reactions and tone of voice and how the puppy responds. First, your puppy was taken from her littermates too early 8 weeks is the earliest a dog should be leaving, and about 10 weeks is ideal. Second, you don't need to be "dominate" over your dog that hurts bonds and often creates fearful puppies. You need to become a leader, and yes, there is a difference. Third, when she bites you, she is likely overstimulated. It sounds like your H does a good job of stimulating not just her body, but her mind, which is truly what puppies need to get tired. Try a novel item when she is most obnoxious: a bully stick, a cow hoof stuffed with peanut butter, a marrow bone, a toy that dispenses treats... something that she only gets when you allow her to have it. Combine it with the crate. Overstimulation and constantly being yelled at or reprimanded isn't fun for a puppy: use the crate. You're not punishing her or making it a bad thing so long as putting her in it isn't a fight and you aren't screaming at her when you do it. When she is overbearing, grab that novel item and let her work at it in the crate until she calms down. When she bites you, you need to keep a LOW vocal tone, almost a growl... you can try yelling "OW!" but it HAS to be low. Any yelping actually stimulates the puppy if you're doing it in too high of a pitch. Constantly yelling, correcting, or physical handling the puppy when she bites is actually reinforcing the behaviors: you're giving her attention, which is likely what she's seeking. If she bites, give her a clear BODY signal that what she did was inappropriate. Cross your arms and walk away, ignoring her.

KellyBrian2013

also, Re: parvo... it is NOT a lowrisk virus by any means, treatment is costly, and a lot of puppies don't make it. A lot. "Proof" of vaccines for a class are not often to prevent its spread, and at 9 weeks, your puppy has only had one set of vaccines that truly "counts", as anything prior to 78 weeks is often offset by the mother's immunity still. Just, be cautious I guess is all I'm saying. I've seen even the most careful of people who breed and raise dogs have a parvo outbreak because they walked somewhere and failed to change their shoes before walking into their kennel or where the puppies are housed. It is very easy to catch and spread, but very hard to treat.

lyndausvi

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_help-i-cant-play-with-my-puppy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:66036fcb-0cf0-4ee5-b266-dc5eed1e2ac2Post:bdbef391-ee9a-450a-8b38-ee9105d4a679">Re: Help - I can't play with my puppy</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Help - I can't play with my puppy : We got got her at 7 weeks. so it's been 2 weeks since she's 9 weeks now. I read that the things they learn now are a precursor for the rest of her life including the biting thing. I've been socializing her with other dogs to help with the biting thing because I know that she learns not to do it during the time that you mentioned from her litter mates. I'm taking her on a puppy play date at a local pet store tomorrow so hopefully it will help a bit.
Posted by tammylongneckerson[/QUOTE]

<div>I wouldn't take her to a store play time quiet yet either.   We had Chef play with a friend's dog until he was about 4 months old.     Although we did walk him around the block at a young age.   We live in the business district.  All the apartments/condos here require vaccinations and there are not random dogs around.  So we felt save.  I can't say I would say the same if we lived somewhere else.</div><div>
</div><div>One of Chef's litter mates was taken on a trip to Houston at a 3 months and got Parvo.  It's believed she got it at one of the rest stops.  Scary.</div><div>
</div><div>  </div>

Peledreamsofrain

Unfortunately, your good intentions are translating into every submissive sign in the doggy book.  Going quiet and still is BIG submission.  You need to change the approach asap.

First and foremost, no more being quiet when she chews.  She's a baby, she has no idea what hurts, and she's relying on you to teach her.  By hiding your pain, you are failing to do that, and laying the foundations for an adult dog that hurts people.  I know that sounds harsh, but this is a serious situation that needs to be corrected immediately.

Say "NO!"  Loud and firm (not scared and in pain).  Ball your hand into a fist so she can't fit it in her mouth.   Then when you get your hand back, hold her muzzle shut.  This is important. Have you ever watched a nature documentary on wolves?  What do the parent wolves do when the pups get too rambunctous?  Hold thier muzzles.  

It's a very safe, non-painful reprimand that is coded into their genes.  Use it, it's there.

Once you get her chewing under control, the play will come naturally as you become less afraid of her.  Your relationship on both sides will improve dramatically.  I would put a lot of money on your timidness with you coming from her picking up on your fear of her biting.  She doesn't know why you don't like being near her, becase you arn't telling her that she's hurting you.

thejucheidea

Regarding the yelp thing when you get bitten -- we did that for our Golden and now he's just neurotic. If he makes a toy squeak, he drops it and looks at us like 'omfg mommy and daddy, I HURT IT.' It's bad :x.

QueerFemme

In Response to Re:Help I can't play with my puppy:[QUOTE]also, Re: parvo... it is NOT a lowrisk virus by any means, treatment is costly, and a lot of puppies don't make it. A lot. "Proof" of vaccines for a class are not often to prevent its spread, and at 9 weeks, your puppy has only had one set of vaccines that truly "counts", as anything prior to 78 weeks is often offset by the mother's immunity still. Just, be cautious I guess is all I'm saying. I've seen even the most careful of people who breed and raise dogs have a parvo outbreak because they walked somewhere and failed to change their shoes before walking into their kennel or where the puppies are housed. It is very easy to catch and spread, but very hard to treat. Posted by KellyBrian2013[/QUOTE]

I really agree with this. If people are willing to take the risk, its up to them. But there is no way I would. When we got our rottie, we had to drive abour 5 hours home and we didn't even let him pee along the side of the road. We actually put a sheet down on the gravel for him to go potty on because parvo is sooooo deadly. And no pet stores at all until after 4 weeks after his last round of shots. We also only wore a certain pair of "house shoes" in the house so we didn't bring the virus into our house on our shoes.

Parvo is very common and its often deadly for puppies. There have been studies of the bacteria found on pet store floors. It wasn't pretty.

lauralaur

When you're working on come, have a strong, strong smelling treat in your hand and don't hide it. That's a command that really needs to be reinforced.

For us, we went through teething start to finish with Ellie. Some piece of getting her to stop using us as a chew toy was a waiting game, once she hit six months and was done teething, chewing on us stopped, though she still loves to chew. You can freeze Kong toys and then they're nice and cold on puppies' teeth and ice cubes are always a good option for chewing. We also gave Ellie a beach towel that was hers to shred and play tug-of-war with, supervision is a must on that one though because she was eventually able to tear off pieces of the towel. I also agree with holding her mouth shut when she bites combined with a "No!"

MoonlightSilver

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_help-i-cant-play-with-my-puppy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:66036fcb-0cf0-4ee5-b266-dc5eed1e2ac2Post:60b33035-9ed8-455e-9d39-3312897a7ac1">Re: Help - I can't play with my puppy</a>:
[QUOTE]THANK YOU, KellyBrian. I'm a little surprised by the number of people advising the dominance roll on here. All that does is teach your dog that you're a bully.  
Posted by cfaszews25[/QUOTE]

<div>Cfas, can you explain to me how the dominance roll used only when to correct bad behavior teaches a dog you're a bully? When you say bully, I interpret that as someone doing an intentionally mean thing for no reason. When I think of the dominance roll (didn't know it had a name), I think of a response to an inappropriate behavior that isn't painful or mean to the dog. I guess I'm just not understanding. </div>

KellyBrian2013

In Response to Re:Help I can't play with my puppy:[QUOTE]Cfas, can you explain to me how the dominance roll used only when to correct bad behavior teaches a dog you're a bully? When you say bully, I interpret that as someone doing an intentionally mean thing for no reason. When I think of the dominance roll didn't know it had a name, I think of a response to an inappropriate behavior that isn't painful or mean to the dog. I guess I'm just not understanding.nbsp; Posted by MoonlightSilver[/QUOTE]

I know I'm not cfas but I can answer, too. And I apologize in advance that I can't do paragraphs because I'm on my phone. It is commonly referred to as the "alpha roll", and became popular because of theories derived from studying wolf behavior. What we now know is that alpha wolves never FORCE another dog into a submissive position, which is what you do when you forcibly roll your dog over on his back or side. Beta wolves either take a submissive posture on their own OR they challenge the alpha; when there is a clear winner in that challenge, the loser WILLINGLY rolls over to submit. All of this is not to mention that domestic dogs are not wolves and do not always have the same tendencies. Alpha rolling your dog, especially a young puppy, can actually escalate the inappropriate behaviors because you're essentially forcing your dog into a vulnerable and very uncomfortable position. A confident dog can sometimes handle it; a dog who isn't confident, who is fearful, or who is truly a dominant dog will react more adversely to being rolled, and to other interactions with the person doing it, than a dog whose owner has taken the time to build a trusting relationship. "Celebrity trainer" Cesar Milan is still an advocate for the alpha roll, and it does a real disservice to the dog training community because everyone continues to think that it's an appropriate technique. The reality is, the majority of the dogs he alpha rolls on his show are incredibly uncomfortable and they are not being "submissive"; they're freaking out to the point of shutting down. And that will RUIN the bond with a person very quickly making future interactions and training experiences that much harder to keep positive.

MoonlightSilver

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_help-i-cant-play-with-my-puppy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:66036fcb-0cf0-4ee5-b266-dc5eed1e2ac2Post:feae3dfa-de45-4134-8d2e-d4d34fd775e9">Re:Help I can't play with my puppy</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Help I can't play with my puppy: I know I'm not cfas but I can answer, too. And I apologize in advance that I can't do paragraphs because I'm on my phone. It is commonly referred to as the "alpha roll", and became popular because of theories derived from studying wolf behavior. What we now know is that alpha wolves never FORCE another dog into a submissive position, which is what you do when you forcibly roll your dog over on his back or side. Beta wolves either take a submissive posture on their own OR they challenge the alpha; when there is a clear winner in that challenge, the loser WILLINGLY rolls over to submit. All of this is not to mention that domestic dogs are not wolves and do not always have the same tendencies. Alpha rolling your dog, especially a young puppy, can actually escalate the inappropriate behaviors because you're essentially forcing your dog into a vulnerable and very uncomfortable position. A confident dog can sometimes handle it; a dog who isn't confident, who is fearful, or who is truly a dominant dog will react more adversely to being rolled, and to other interactions with the person doing it, than a dog whose owner has taken the time to build a trusting relationship. "Celebrity trainer" Cesar Milan is still an advocate for the alpha roll, and it does a real disservice to the dog training community because everyone continues to think that it's an appropriate technique. The reality is, the majority of the dogs he alpha rolls on his show are incredibly uncomfortable and they are not being "submissive"; they're freaking out to the point of shutting down. And that will RUIN the bond with a person very quickly making future interactions and training experiences that much harder to keep positive.
Posted by KellyBrian2013[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Interesting. So it's not the roll itself, but the mental response of the dog that makes it inappropirate according to this information. That makes more sense. </div><div>
</div><div>I'd have to read more information before I decided if I'm fully against it or not- it seems that some people (ie Milan) still support it, and I've never had troubles with my own dogs. But thank you for explaining your position. 

</div>

J&K10910

Not to mention that it's just not logical.  The whole point of a submissive gesture like that is that the dog is submitting.  He or she is making the conscious decision to show its belly because it is submitting.

When you force it, the dog is NOT submitting.  So it doesn't MEAN submission to the dog.  It means "I'm not happy here and this is uncomfortable and scary and why is this person doing this to me I don't like it."  Logically, that will not necessarily lead to the dog recognizing you as the alpha.

KellyBrian2013

In Response to Re:Help I can't play with my puppy:[QUOTE]Interesting. So it's not the roll itself, but the mental response of the dog that makes it inappropirate according to this information. That makes more sense.nbsp;I'd have to read more information before I decided if I'm fully against it or not it seems that some people ie Milan still support it, and I've never had troubles with my own dogs. But thank you for explaining your position.nbsp; Posted by MoonlightSilver[/QUOTE]

Would you be okay with one child verbally abusing another child because it's not physical? That's essential what the alpha roll is doing. No, not all dogs react negatively too it, but many many do. And often people are too ignorant to dog behavior and body language to see it. Psychological damage is still not a good thing, regardless of whether we are talking humans or dogs. Cesar Milan's philosophies involve MAKING dogs do what HE wants. He doesn't care whether they are happy, comfortable, or confident in doing so... only that they do it. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have to work a little harder to get my dog through a problem and have them trust me and WANT to work through it than force them to do it, lose their trust, and have a dog that isn't comfortable or confident. But that's me. I've also never had a dog suffocate in my care due to my training methodologies, or for any other reason, either though, so there's that.

Peledreamsofrain

Don't overcomplicate things, and don't hold any animal down.  It freaks them out, no matter what species.

A brief "no!", and a brief hold on the muzzle will fix your issue.  The more uncomfortable and complicated your make your behavior, the more she'll pick up on that, and get nervous about you.

Be confident, and friendly in your demeanor during play, and end play after the 'no'.  She'll get the idea very quickly.

Bullying is when you are being negative and intentionally causing distress because it's fun.  Dogs can tell the difference, believe me.

HuckSC

There are a lot of suggestions on here and you just need to tailor it to the personality of your puppy, which you may or may not know right know.

I have to disagree with the tabasco comment. We had an AmStaff (like a pitbull) that would lick off the bitter apple gel before chewing on things. We had to resort to tabasco sauce. She is not scared of us, but will walk away when she sees the bottle.

You just need to have items for the puppy to chew on and direct their attention there.

SB1512

A lot of people have given really good advice already, but I will comment on one thing.  The puppy is a very young age and it seems like you are bombarding the pup with a lot of training commands at once.  FI and I rescued our dog and got him when he was 3 months old.  We started puppy training classes 1 week after we got him and the progression of the class was starting with very simple commands and training and working on those 1 or 2 things for the entire week until the next class.  For example our first class was learning loose leash walking and the sit command.  Second week was learning sit with the stay command (for distance and duration) and implementing time outs.  Week 3 was correcting jumping and the down command.  Week 4 was the down command with a stay for distance and duration and the sit/stay command during distraction periods and so on.  I know you said you are starting training very soon, but perhaps cut back on trying to teach the dog so many things at once.  Also remember that puppies usually have a very short attention span and you can probably only hold their attention for 10-15 minutes before they will need a break.  They did this in our puppy class.....we would work for 10 minutes and then let the puppies play while the trainer talked to us pet parents for 10 minutes, then resume teaching again.

Also, have you tried using time outs for the biting?  One of the best things we learned at training was using a time out.  What you do is basically choose a place to put the dog when they do something wrong.  Your instincts are correct to not use the crate, FI and I choose to use our bathroom because there is nothing fun or dangerous to the puppy in there.  We choose 1 behavior at a time to correct, our first choice being him always taking our shoes and chewing on them.  Whenever we caught him in the act of taking a shoe we said in a firm voice "time out!" and plopped him in the bathroom and shut the door.  We started with short time outs, maybe 20-30 seconds and as long as the dog was quiet we would let him out when the time out was up.  As long as the bad behavior continued the amount of time a time out would last would increase (but I don't think we've ever had him in time out for more than a few minutes).  Some dogs will make noise and bark, but some will not.  Do not let the dog out when it's making noise, it has to learn it can come out when it's ready to be quiet and behave.  Our dog happens to be pretty vocal so the trainer said if we only got 1-2 seconds of quiet after the time out was up that was a good start and to let him out or else he'd be in there forever (he also caught on really quickly that being quiet was what would get him out).  I think it took less than 10 time out occassions and we were able to leave our shoes anywhere within reach and he won't touch them. 

MoonlightSilver

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_help-i-cant-play-with-my-puppy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:66036fcb-0cf0-4ee5-b266-dc5eed1e2ac2Post:15b36512-fd5b-46a3-be1b-2a2b4805b1cb">Re:Help I can't play with my puppy</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re:Help I can't play with my puppy: Would you be okay with one child verbally abusing another child because it's not physical? That's essential what the alpha roll is doing. No, not all dogs react negatively too it, but many many do. And often people are too ignorant to dog behavior and body language to see it. Psychological damage is still not a good thing, regardless of whether we are talking humans or dogs. Cesar Milan's philosophies involve MAKING dogs do what HE wants. He doesn't care whether they are happy, comfortable, or confident in doing so... only that they do it. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have to work a little harder to get my dog through a problem and have them trust me and WANT to work through it than force them to do it, lose their trust, and have a dog that isn't comfortable or confident. But that's me. I've also never had a dog suffocate in my care due to my training methodologies, or for any other reason, either though, so there's that.
Posted by KellyBrian2013[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I agree that psychological damage is not a good thing. I was just saying that I wanted to educate myself more before I formed an opinion on the matter. 

</div>

MrsKathyC

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_help-i-cant-play-with-my-puppy?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:66036fcb-0cf0-4ee5-b266-dc5eed1e2ac2Post:a2886897-490b-4dfb-bab5-c89272942a20">Re:Help I can't play with my puppy</a>:
[QUOTE]This thread makes me sad... so many training misconceptions and myths. My suggestion? Hire a good, private inhome dog trainer who can see the behaviors in person and witness your reactions and tone of voice and how the puppy responds. First, your puppy was taken from her littermates too early 8 weeks is the earliest a dog should be leaving, and about 10 weeks is ideal. Second, you don't need to be "dominate" over your dog that hurts bonds and often creates fearful puppies. You need to become a leader, and yes, there is a difference. Third, when she bites you, she is likely overstimulated. It sounds like your H does a good job of stimulating not just her body, but her mind, which is truly what puppies need to get tired. Try a novel item when she is most obnoxious: a bully stick, a cow hoof stuffed with peanut butter, a marrow bone, a toy that dispenses treats... something that she only gets when you allow her to have it. Combine it with the crate. Overstimulation and constantly being yelled at or reprimanded isn't fun for a puppy: use the crate. You're not punishing her or making it a bad thing so long as putting her in it isn't a fight and you aren't screaming at her when you do it. When she is overbearing, grab that novel item and let her work at it in the crate until she calms down. When she bites you, you need to keep a LOW vocal tone, almost a growl... you can try yelling "OW!" but it HAS to be low. Any yelping actually stimulates the puppy if you're doing it in too high of a pitch. Constantly yelling, correcting, or physical handling the puppy when she bites is actually reinforcing the behaviors: you're giving her attention, which is likely what she's seeking. If she bites, give her a clear BODY signal that what she did was inappropriate. Cross your arms and walk away, ignoring her.
Posted by KellyBrian2013[/QUOTE]

Great advice!