Discuss

tobeDrReed

This board has a great vairety of opinions and I'm curious about how everyone reacts to this article: Could Irelands budget cuts be a model for the US?

CN: Ireland is in a financial crisis. To combat it, they are cutting $4 billion from next year's budget.  The prime minister is being cut by 20%, as well as unemployment & social welfare cuts.  They're even taxing Irish citizens that are living overseas because emmigration has reached extremely high levels, and calling it the "Bono tax".

bbyckes

Is there a link to the article?

crfische

That IS a link to the article, coffer.

bbyckes

Thanks.  Duh.

tobeDrReed

I tried to change the color of the link but it wouldn't take. Here it is:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34520361/ns/world_news-washington_post//

ac_in_dc

I generally would like to see americans more willing to sacrifice in order to obtain long-term goals. I think that the public would be ready to answer a call to sacrifice from the right leader.

Unfortunately politicians seem much more interested in handing out chits.

I think health care reform may be a good example of this, but I'm having a really hard time understanding that bill...

bbyckes

Many Irish seem to view the cuts as cathartic, surrendering to a view that they deserve to suffer after buying in so completely to the reckless, credit-fueled growth of the late 1990s and 2000s.

Americans are too entitled to view cutbacks as cathartic or "just-desserts." 

I don't think it would work, primarily because of the sheer amount of citizens depending on entitlement programs and the fact that no one wants their taxes raised anymore than what they are.  Raising taxes on the wealthier Americans would probably cause a serious revolt - more so than what happened when Obama proposed the slight increase.

I don't know.  When do we even have to pay for the defecit?  I just think it just grows and grows and grows.

AmoroAgain

While I think that we *should* institute a program that is similar, I never see it happening in the US.  If it were to have happened, it would have had to have been done during the recession, with the politicians and rich taking the brunt of the reduction in pay and increase in taxes. 

That being said, Ireland is a bit different in nature because it was just recently (say, the past 10-15 years) really begun to develop a larger economy.  Prior to this time, as stated in the article, there was always rather high unemployment, as well as a cheaper standard of living.  So, with nations such as Greece and Ireland that are heavily dependant on say, one or two industries, it is much more difficult for them to bounce back from any sort of financial crisis.  This isn't to say that the US would be able to bounce back were the Chinese to call in our debts.  But that we have, overall, many more resources.

The other issue with this type of painful cutback, is that we have at the moment, a large welfare state, larger than any we've had before, and to suddenly cut funding for any and all of them- whilst simultaneously instituting a major health care reform- would certainly spark major riots.  I believe that the current administration has already made the critical decision between paying down the budget, and creating a new health care system. 

A point which struck me in the article is that there has been very little response by the Irish public in the form of a general outcry.  It says:  Many Irish seem to view the cuts as cathartic, surrendering to a view that they deserve to suffer after buying in so completely to the reckless, credit-fueled growth of the late 1990s and 2000s. As the Irish seek penance for their excesses, they are gobbling up self-flagellatory bestsellers such as Fintan O'Toole's "Ship of Fools: How Stupidity and Corruption Sank the Celtic Tiger."
Most Americans would probably not feel that we are to blame for our own misfortunes, preferring to fob it off on someone or something else. 

Another point as an aside- the US already requires all citizens living overseas to continue to pay taxes for up to 10 years, even if you become a citizen of another country.  My H and I get hit with Italian AND American taxes. 

AmoroAgain

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:13d6cdf6-cee1-4853-92ed-ca8466b48c70">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE]MWhen do we even have to pay for the defecit?  I just think it just grows and grows and grows.
Posted by bbyckes[/QUOTE]


<a href="#" title="Click to view a larger photo" onclick="return gSiteLife.LoadForumPage('ForumImage', 'plckPhotoId', 'da46fc80-69ce-4778-9d0a-ddba47a014f4', 'plckRedirectUrl', gSiteLife.EscapeValue(window.location.href));"> <img src="http://cdn.cl9.vanillaforums.com/downloaded/ver1.0/content/images/store/10/13/da46fc80-69ce-4778-9d0a-ddba47a014f4.medium.gif" alt="" /></a>

ac_in_dc

See, I think if our politicians had any balls they could have actually convinced us to give some things up. I don't think Americans are as selfish as our politicians assume we are.

Like Bush after 9/11 with 90% approval ratings, instead of calling americans to service or sacrifice he asked us to go shopping.  Or Obama, who had a pretty considerable majority of folks supporting him right after the election (not 90%, but still).

bbyckes

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:c406642d-e8e6-4469-b9ad-d96299280520">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discuss :
Posted by AmoroAgain[/QUOTE]

hahaha I was being sarcastic.  (I'd hope that was obvis)

bbyckes

We should all be researching Hoover's Victory gardens right about now.

Take that same attitude and apply it to our present situation.  Sometimes sacrifice is warranted.  I agree with ac that we really aren't as selfish as politicians believe we are, but I'll tell you, I don't want to be the one sacrificing when no one else is.

mocha beans

I was going to write a whole long response, but I have to go to work soon and Amoro pretty much summed it up for me anyway.

Unfortunately, we are far too entitled feeling to take responsibility and deal with major cutbacks.  The wealthier people will never go for a hefty tax increase on them as a whole, and neither will corporations when they can just pack up and move overseas.  There's too much of a me me me mentality, not enough of an us us us mentality.  And too much of a "gotta have it now, demand results now" mentality.  The cutbacks that are needed would hurt hard for years and years, but ideally they would be the start of creating a much more stable economy and government.  Unfortunately, that's unlikely to happen because the results are a long ways out, possibly decades.  Too long for Americans on the whole to comprehend benefiting them.

We also need to be more self-responsible.  Have a more personal and private way to save for retirement and healthcare rather than being dependent on the government programs.  They should still be there as a safety net, but just as that, a safety net.  Not the primary way to save for major life events and expenses.

All this is based on my uneducated opinion on government spending, as I haven't read up on it much, so I could be completely off base.

goheels05

Amoro took the words right out of my mouth.  

Ireland has made some great progress in recent decades.  But their policy isn't one that can be enacted one-size-fits-all. Comparing US to Ireland is like comparing apples to oranges.

I think their prime minister is setting an excellent example by taking a paycut.

I don't know how well government employees are paid in Ireland, but in the US, most government employees are already so underpaid that I think it would be very unfair to pay them any less.  Our community college instructors just took a 10% paycut along with increased workloads.  They've suffered enough.

I would love Americans to take more responsibility for the consequences of our actions.  But our culture as a whole has leaned more and more towards entitlement with every decade, and I don't know what it will take to reverse that mentality.

AmoroAgain

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:339f1e9d-14ea-44fe-8aa0-0ece9475eb7b">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE]  I agree with ac that we really aren't as selfish as politicians believe we are, but I'll tell you, I don't want to be the one sacrificing when no one else is.
Posted by bbyckes[/QUOTE]

Yeah... that statement right there is why it's difficult to know when you're being sarcastic and when you're not.  Seriously.  How about setting an example for others?  How about cutting back on your gas usage because it's good for the earth and good for your pocket book?  How about NOT being selfish just because "no one else is".  Would you want your son to say, "I didn't help the lady who was getting beat up because no one else was."  Ridiculous.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown

I completely disagree with cutting any entitlement programs, ever. And especially now when more people need them. (California recently tried to get rid of their children's medical program, but thankfully that was saved.)

Military cuts? I'm all for. Not to our veterans, but to R&D.

Then again, I'm fine with paying more taxes if shiit actually works.

mocha beans

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:339f1e9d-14ea-44fe-8aa0-0ece9475eb7b">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE]We should all be researching Hoover's Victory gardens right about now. Take that same attitude and apply it to our present situation.  Sometimes sacrifice is warranted.  I agree with ac that we really aren't as selfish as politicians believe we are, <strong>but I'll tell you, I don't want to be the one sacrificing when no one else is</strong>.
Posted by bbyckes[/QUOTE]

This is the root of the problem.  Not enough people are willing to do something like that if no one else is.  It's the not-in-my-backyard type of thinking.  If everyone says "I won't do it unless someone else is", then it's never going to get done, or it will be painfully slow.

goheels05

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:13d6cdf6-cee1-4853-92ed-ca8466b48c70">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE] Raising taxes on the wealthier Americans would probably cause a serious revolt - more so than what happened when Obama proposed the slight increase.
Posted by bbyckes[/QUOTE]

Did you know that the top 5% of wage earners in the US pay over 60% of all personal Federal income tax?

Also, the tax increases Obama has proposed are hardly "slight."

bbyckes

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:98677c76-3dc9-421e-96e3-c196c875a806">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discuss : This is the root of the problem.  Not enough people are willing to do something like that if no one else is.  It's the not-in-my-backyard type of thinking.  If everyone says "I won't do it unless someone else is", then it's never going to get done, or it will be painfully slow.
Posted by mocha beans[/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree with this.

AmoroAgain

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:3d118016-f1e4-421d-a4c1-a9c1d5bfd5e3">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Discuss : I absolutely agree with this.
Posted by bbyckes[/QUOTE]

If you agree with that, why the hell are you the one saying you won't do it unless someone else does first?!

sarahmk5

I haven't read all of the responses, but I agree that cuts would be a great thing, except for one problem: we're involved in two wars right now, and that costs a lot of money.

bbyckes

Amoro, I agree with her statement.  I do.  I wasn't saying that I wouldn't do it if no one else was willing to do it first.  I was trying to convey that I'm all for sacrificing, but I don't want to be the only one making sacrifices. 

wadingmoose

I'm curious if people actually know the meaning of deficit.

wadingmoose

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:23801c50-470d-4bac-8557-a278d8974523">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE]Amoro, I agree with her statement.  I do.  I wasn't saying that I wouldn't do it if no one else was willing to do it first.  I was trying to convey that I'm all for sacrificing, but I don't want to be the only one making sacrifices. 
Posted by bbyckes[/QUOTE]

And that there is a significant problem.  It's easy to say something like this when you know that no one else wants to do so either.  It's a safe statement.  No one is going to step forward and say "here, take my money," so you'll never have to actually make a sacrifice.

Nice.

alixzafiris

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:99bca771-6297-4f59-9c47-f4b28c1d50ee">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm curious if people actually know the meaning of deficit.
Posted by wadingmoose[/QUOTE]

Times a bazillion. Bbcakes, I'm lookin' at you.

AmoroAgain

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_discuss-4?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:85ef6802-8fc3-435a-a811-ac5af479233cPost:23801c50-470d-4bac-8557-a278d8974523">Re: Discuss</a>:
[QUOTE]Amoro, I agree with her statement.  I do.  I wasn't saying that I wouldn't do it if no one else was willing to do it first.  I was trying to convey that I'm all for sacrificing, but I don't want to be the only one making sacrifices. 
Posted by bbyckes[/QUOTE]

That is a completely circular argument.  WhereTF did you go to law school??

thesuninherhead

It is far, far too early for me to get into a debate on this, but spending cuts are not the way to fuel an economy, and this is exactly what we've seen fuel depressions in the past. Investment into infrastructure and the like, securing jobs, is what is helping the majority of countries recover from this recession (certainly, in Australia we haven't technically even had a 'recession' as our employment and spending figures haven't actually decreased at a rate that would indicate a recession; a lot of this is likely attributed to the investments our government has made to ensure that we are still productive and employed).

 

God, that drained me. I need to go and splash water on my face or something. Good morning!