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Wedding Etiquette Forum

Uggh...what do I do?

Sooo, my best friend has been dating someone for several years - I have only met him maybe four times total, because until recently I have lived over a 1000 miles away during the time they have been dating. The very first time I met him, I was visiting town and we all went together. I found him to be a real jerk - he ogled every woman in the room, made misogynistic (sp?) comments, drank 10 beers at dinner (not to mention the drinks at the club/bar afterward), and treated my friend rather crappy throughout the night. He just rubbed me the wrong way - when I asked if they could please bring me home, he said I was a terrible friend for wanting to leave the bar at 2am in the morning when I only saw my friend once a yr. After that evening, I had dropped comments to her tactfully about me not feeling like he was good for her. I have a hard time knowing where to draw the line and how much I should speak my opinion of him. I really hoped she would get the hint without me having to say much, but she kept a relationship with him anyway, and fortunately I didn't have to have much to do with him b/c I lived so far away anyway. I just hoped they would break things off.

When my fiance and I were planning our wedding in NY - where we used to live, she had finally decided to break things off with the bf, and he moved to another state. On her save the date card, I listed her plus a guest. She mentioned she would most likely bring her sister, not the old bf. Wellllll......we had to cancel our wedding in NY, and move back to AZ where she and my family live, due to a number of reasons (fi had heart surgery, our living situation was bad, etc.) Our wedding guest list was VERY small, so everyone understood and it all worked out.  Soon after our wedding was called off in NY, she got back with the old bf, and they've decided to get married.

They asked us to go out on a double date with them when we got back into town, and I agreed, thinking he had perhaps matured since the last time I'd seen him. It had to be the most awful dinner I've ever had with another couple. He made racist comments throughout dinner (my fi is black and vietnamese), showed up drunk in the first place, acted terrible toward my fi and best friend and generally just treated all of us like crap. We ended the dinner asap. My friend seemed so embarrassed and humiliated throughout the dinner, I was sure she would get the BIG hint that it went terribly and we would not ever never ever be able to go out with them again. However, she called me the next day to see if we wanted to hang out again! I'm still recovering from his behavior and would not ever feel comfortable being in the same room with him again. My fi made it very clear to me he does not want to see this person again. My question is.....how do I discuss this with my best friend, who is obviously so brainwashed and insecure she doesn't get that this guy is AWFUL.....and how do I discuss the fact that we can't all ever be in the same room together....EVER?? We are starting to replan our wedding, and I dont know how to disinvite her future husband....is having him at the wedding unavoidable simply because he will be her husband? I would have hoped she would not have put me in a position to be the one to confront her.....but evidently she's clueless..or trying to be. Any advice? I'm going to lunch with her this week...and I simply have to draw the line and make things very very clear.
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Re: Uggh...what do I do?

  • edited November 2010
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_ugghwhat?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8604d8da-d971-4277-8215-def5a5b979c6Post:919c7b8a-dd74-4ea8-bc0c-492ea7b55c44">Uggh...what do I do?</a>:
    [QUOTE]Sooo, my best friend has been dating someone for several years - I have only met him maybe four times total, because until recently I have lived over a 1000 miles away during the time they have been dating. The very first time I met him, I was visiting town and we all went together. I found him to be a real jerk - he ogled every woman in the room, made misogynistic (sp?) comments, drank 10 beers at dinner (not to mention the drinks at the club/bar afterward), and treated my friend rather crappy throughout the night. He just rubbed me the wrong way - when I asked if they could please bring me home, he said I was a terrible friend for wanting to leave the bar at 2am in the morning when I only saw my friend once a yr. After that evening, I had dropped comments to her tactfully about me not feeling like he was good for her. I have a hard time knowing where to draw the line and how much I should speak my opinion of him. I really hoped she would get the hint without me having to say much, but she kept a relationship with him anyway, and fortunately I didn't have to have much to do with him b/c I lived so far away anyway. I just hoped they would break things off. When my fiance and I were planning our wedding in NY - where we used to live, she had finally decided to break things off with the bf, and he moved to another state. On her save the date card, I listed her plus a guest. She mentioned she would most likely bring her sister, not the old bf. Wellllll......we had to cancel our wedding in NY, and move back to AZ where she and my family live, due to a number of reasons (fi had heart surgery, our living situation was bad, etc.) Our wedding guest list was VERY small, so everyone understood and it all worked out.  Soon after our wedding was called off in NY, she got back with the old bf, and they've decided to get married. They asked us to go out on a double date with them when we got back into town, and I agreed, thinking he had perhaps matured since the last time I'd seen him. It had to be the most awful dinner I've ever had with another couple. He made racist comments throughout dinner (my fi is black and vietnamese), showed up drunk in the first place, acted terrible toward my fi and best friend and generally just treated all of us like crap. We ended the dinner asap. My friend seemed so embarrassed and humiliated throughout the dinner, I was sure she would get the BIG hint that it went terribly and we would not ever never ever be able to go out with them again. However, she called me the next day to see if we wanted to hang out again! I'm still recovering from his behavior and would not ever feel comfortable being in the same room with him again. My fi made it very clear to me he does not want to see this person again. My question is.....how do I discuss this with my best friend, who is obviously so brainwashed and insecure she doesn't get that this guy is AWFUL.....and how do I discuss the fact that we can't all ever be in the same room together....EVER?? We are starting to replan our wedding, and I dont know how to disinvite her future husband....<strong>is having him at the wedding unavoidable simply because he will be her husband?</strong> I would have hoped she would not have put me in a position to be the one to confront her.....but evidently she's clueless..or trying to be. Any advice? I'm going to lunch with her this week...and I simply have to draw the line and make things very very clear.
    Posted by jbwed1[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>Yes. Its a totally shitty situation and I am sorry you have to deal with it, but if you want to keep your friendship you need to invite him to the wedding. The only advice I can give you is to stay out of their relationship. Trust your friend's judgement, and be supportive of her. Talking about a friend's boyfriend is the quickest way to ruin a friendship. </div><div>
    </div><div>Good luck!

    </div>
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  • Well, to answer your basic question at the end- yes, you have to invite him to your wedding if they are married... social unit, blah blah blah.

    When you have lunch with her, you can tell her your feelings, but be careful.  People tend to be really sensitive about their relationships.  Clearly, she loves something about him, and you bagging on him could ruin your relationship with her.  Be honest, but tread lightly.
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  • So your friend sits by while her boyfriend makes racist remarks to your fiance, insults you, and generally treats you guys like crap?  Are you sure you want her as a friend? 
  • edited November 2010
    To be honest, while the guy sounds like a pain, there's a certain likelihood that you don't know everything about their relationship.  The only time I would advocate getting involved is if you know he's definitely cheating or if he's abusing her.  Otherwise, I tend to be of the opinion that she's a big girl and can make this choice for herself. 

    I'm saying this partly because my friends didn't like my FI for a long time.  Things have been much better for a while now, and they actually like hanging out with him, but for a long time they didn't think he was right for me.  To be honest, there's a lot they didn't know and still didn't know about our relationship.  You're basing your knowledge about this guy based on your limited encounters with him.  Odds are your friend knows what she's doing.  And if she is making a huge mistake, you just need to be there for her when things go awry.

    EDIT - and yes, they're engaged.  You need to invite him to the wedding with her.
  • The next time she mentions double dating or getting together, I would be polite but to the point.  "Friend, FI and I are not comfortable being with your FI after the horribly rude and racist comments he made about FI in front of us, and how horribly he treats you as well as us.  I would love to see you as much as posisble, but I unfortunately will not make plans with you that involve your FI." 

    As for the wedding, it would be extremely rude not to invite her FI.  Like it or not, they are a social unit and it would be very rude to not invite him.

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  • Fuuck it. I'm not going with the party line of social unit crap here. He is a racist d-bag and you DON'T have to put up with it. She might not come to the weddign without him, but that's her right. No way woudl I invite someone to my wedding that treated my FI like that.

    "In the old days my ass would be in your back yard picking cotton, so excuse me if I don't put much stock in how f*cking awesome the old days were." -Nuggs
  • Etiquette dictates that they should be invited together because they are in a significant long-term relationship. 

    That said: If someone made racist remarks about my FI, then they definitely wouldn't be invited -- etiquette be damned.  My birth parents were teenagers in an interracial relationship, and the fact that I am mixed is 100% of the reason I was given up for adoption.  If I had been either fully white or fully Asian, then either family would have committed to raising me.  I have absolutely zero tolerance for racism.

    I would tell my friend, "Friend, I love you and I respect the choices that you make for yourself.  However, after all of those awful things that your FI said about my FI, he is no longer welcome in our lives and cannot attend our wedding.  Please understand that I will always be there for you.  I hope this doesn't affect our friendship, but I will understand and respect your feelings if it does."
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_ugghwhat?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:8604d8da-d971-4277-8215-def5a5b979c6Post:50640ae0-3e95-4681-9bdb-b497bef587a7">Re: Uggh...what do I do?</a>:
    [QUOTE]To be honest, while the guy sounds like a pain, there's a certain likelihood that you don't know everything about their relationship.  The only time I would advocate getting involved is if you know he's definitely cheating or if he's abusing her.  Otherwise, I tend to be of the opinion that she's a big girl and can make this choice for herself.  I'm saying this partly because my friends didn't like my FI for a long time.  Things have been much better for a while now, and they actually like hanging out with him, but for a long time they didn't think he was right for me.  To be honest, there's a lot they didn't know and still didn't know about our relationship.  You're basing your knowledge about this guy based on your limited encounters with him.  Odds are your friend knows what she's doing.  And if she is making a huge mistake, you just need to be there for her when things go awry. EDIT - and yes, they're engaged.  You need to invite him to the wedding with her.
    Posted by marissa_claire[/QUOTE]
    None of that matters one damn bit whne d-bag choose to insult her H. Sure she doesn't know what's going on in their relationship, but she knows enough that she doesn't like him and refuses to be around him again.
    "In the old days my ass would be in your back yard picking cotton, so excuse me if I don't put much stock in how f*cking awesome the old days were." -Nuggs
  • She sounds like a pretty craptastic friend to allow things like that to go on. 
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  • Oh man...this is so frustrating. My main concern, is that our wedding is so small (20 people...only my and his parents and brother's family and best friends) that he will get drunk and make a fool of himself and say things like he said the other evening.....

    Just because I need to vent.....here are some samples of what he said..

     - When my fi went to the restroom, her bf looked at her and said "See...and you thought I couldn't go out to dinner with him b/c he's black and I'd make a fool of myself. He's not even all black anyway..."

     - My fi just got out of the hospital from having 2 heart surgeries, and he said to him "your girl was so happy when we showed up at the hospital....I guess nobody else wanted to come see you ugly motherf*c*er"

    He also b*tched out the waitress several times, yelled so that everyone in the restaurant could hear absolutely everything he said and cursed and talked about racial stereotypes. He also took my best friend's meal away from her and began eating it....and finished it.....and said it was b/c she was 'pissing him off' He makes me want to puke.

  • I admit too that if this was my friends FI and he treated my H like that I probbaly would have also said screw etiquette and not invited him. 
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  • Before you get to inviting anyone, I'd sit down with her and have a talk about how you respect her choice but cannot put up with someone making comments like that to you and your FI. Then hang out again, and if he doesn't change, I wouldn't be inviting either of them.
  • I wouldn't invite her to the wedding. Its one thing to have someone you don't like there because they are in general annoying or socially awkward to but to have someone who is outwardly racist, especially since your FI and his family would be greatly offended by his presence is different. Honestly, if your friend is marrying this person the friendship is going to end anyway.


  • What did you say in response to those first two comments? The fact that the guy is generally a jerk and specifically a jerk to your friend isn't your problem, but you can bet that if someone said something derogatory about H being Latino I would put them in their place and then leave if there was a second comment.
  • Wow. I guess I didn't take it to extremes of racist comments and assholeness when I gave my advice. I would certainly tell your friend why you aren't inviting that ass. God I would be so upset if FI eeeeeever talked to someone like that, especially my best friend. 
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  • Thanks guys...I'm really in the 'screw etiquette' boat here....I think I just have a difficult time with confrontation and don't know how to approach it, but you've given me some good ideas and advice.I have to get some balls and just say it, nicely....but honestly. His attitude does not fly in my book....and I can't take the chance on him doing it on a day that's most special for us. I just don't think it's worth the risk...

    And yes, I feel like there are alot f things she could have done differently. It's all a little jarring to be honest. I never thought she woudl be with someone like this....she's certainly not. It's as if she's overlooking all of it, b/c she doesn't think she can do any better. Very sad
  • Oh hell no.  Look, it sounds like your friend is well... stupid,for lack of a better word.  Not only do I not let someone talk like that about my friends, it sure as hell wouldn't work for me.  He's a douche.  But, you have to talk to her about it.  Maybe she feels like this is all she can have?  I don't know, but if you want to help your friend, then help her, but don't expect to be able to keep her from the douche.  And I agree with LVB.
  • I had an ex like that and I lost a lot of friends that way. The day I dropped his controlling ass, I had plenty of friends again.

    If I were you, I'd distance myself from them. 
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  • I think your have to look at all angles here.  Its very easy to just say "Screw that jerk, don't invite him"  But  she WILL choose her husband/FI over you and it will ruin your friendship .   Are you ok with that?  Can you accept that outcome?  If so, great.   If not, you'll have to tack him on too and hope he doesn't cause an issue.   Im not saying thats ideal, Im just saying thats reality.  Id hate to see you think you could not invite him and it would all turn out great between you two girls or you could make her understand why you did it, because thats just not the case.   

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    "Whatever East. You're just mad I RSVP'd "lame" to your pre-wedding sleepover."
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_ugghwhat?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8604d8da-d971-4277-8215-def5a5b979c6Post:4c82d6c2-6888-4064-8391-23f21ee526a1">Re: Uggh...what do I do?</a>:
    [QUOTE]..... Just because I need to vent.....here are some samples of what he said..  - When my fi went to the restroom, her bf looked at her and said "See...and you thought I couldn't go out to dinner with him b/c he's black and I'd make a fool of myself. He's not even all black anyway..."  - My fi just got out of the hospital from having 2 heart surgeries, and he said to him "your girl was so happy when we showed up at the hospital....I guess nobody else wanted to come see you ugly motherf*c*er"
    Posted by jbwed1[/QUOTE]

    You don't need to have this guy at your wedding regardless of what etiquette rules say.  I assume your FI's family will be there?  Why risk subjecting them to someone who your friend was worried couldn't sit through a dinner with a black man without making a fool of himself?!  Your non-black guests would probably be offended by this a-hole as well! 

    I would still invite my friend, but I would be honest with her and say that I prefer that she not bring her FI because of the racist comments he made at dinner.  If she invites you to hang out with her FI again, you can also tell her that's why you have to decline.  And like a PP said, I would question whether I would want to be friends with someone who chooses to date a guy like this.
  • There's no way I would have been able to sit through that dinner without saying something horrible to that guy.

    I vote that you don't invite either of them.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_ugghwhat?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8604d8da-d971-4277-8215-def5a5b979c6Post:0d5b383f-786c-4b7b-8894-9568271a388c">Re: Uggh...what do I do?</a>:
    [QUOTE]I think your have to look at all angles here.  Its very easy to just say "Screw that jerk, don't invite him"  But  she WILL choose her husband/FI over you and it will ruin your friendship .   Are you ok with that?  Can you accept that outcome?  If so, great.   If not, you'll have to tack him on too and hope he doesn't cause an issue.   Im not saying thats ideal, Im just saying thats reality.  Id hate to see you think you could not invite him and it would all turn out great between you two girls or you could make her understand why you did it, because thats just not the case.   
    Posted by eastunder1[/QUOTE]

    But don't you think OP has to choose HER husband over her friend as well?  This guy made racially disparaging remarks to her face!  And her own friend was worried he'd make a fool of himself at dinner with a black man.  It would be a slap in her husband's face to have a guy like this at his wedding.
  • I'm with LVB.  I wouldn't invite this guy.  But, I don't see how he has the right to be offended, when he apparently doesn't care about offending others, ever. 

    The difference, though, is that I wouldn't have been around for most of that dinner.  When he started making racist comments toward your FI, I'd have said, "Friend, I enjoy seeing you.  But, we're going to have to have a girls' day.  Your FI's behavior is offensive and unacceptable, and I refuse to sit here and listen to any more of it."  And I'd have left.

    Frankly, I probably wouldn't want to be friends with her if that's the sort of company she wants to keep.  So, it might not be an issue in the end, because I might not want to invite her. 

    Important note, though:  It would take something pretty much this serious or worse for me to be ok with violating this rule and splitting up a couple.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_ugghwhat?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8604d8da-d971-4277-8215-def5a5b979c6Post:aaa2516b-d6b7-42fe-8db1-ea51df4876a1">Re: Uggh...what do I do?</a>:
    [QUOTE]<font color="#ff0000"><strong>I'm with LVB.  I wouldn't invite this guy.  But, I don't see how he has the right to be offended, when he apparently doesn't care about offending others, ever.  The difference, though, is that I wouldn't have been around for most of that dinner.  When he started making racist comments toward your FI, I'd have said, "Friend, I enjoy seeing you.  But, we're going to have to have a girls' day.  Your FI's behavior is offensive and unacceptable, and I refuse to sit here and listen to any more of it."  And I'd have left. Frankly, I probably wouldn't want to be friends with her if that's the sort of company she wants to keep.</strong></font> 
    Posted by squirrly[/QUOTE]
    Yes, yes yes.  Agree completely.
  • I think East brings up a very important pint here - there's no way you will be able to invite your friend and not her FI without causing a serious rift in the friendship. I think you are perfectly within your rights doing this, because like Squirrly, I probably would have walked out of that dinner. But you have to be prepared for the fact that this friendship might end. Are you ready for that?
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_ugghwhat?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8604d8da-d971-4277-8215-def5a5b979c6Post:ba76adfa-c2fe-4002-b541-e394bf4012f7">Re: Uggh...what do I do?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Uggh...what do I do? : But don't you think OP has to choose HER husband over her friend as well?  This guy made racially disparaging remarks to her face!  And her own friend was worried he'd make a fool of himself at dinner with a black man.  It would be a slap in her husband's face to have a guy like this at his wedding.
    Posted by TheCranberry[/QUOTE]


    Are you under the impression Im advocating inviting this guy to the wedding?  Im not.  Im simply saying she needs to be aware of what her decisions here will most likely result in.  I think she would be a fool to not put her husband over any friend.  This friend, another friend, any friend.  I just dont want her to think its going to be as simple as people on a wedding board can make it appear  ("you dont have to invite him, and she needs to understand that!"!) then be shocked when her friendship falls apart.   

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    "Whatever East. You're just mad I RSVP'd "lame" to your pre-wedding sleepover."
  • BeeBee22BeeBee22 member
    100 Comments
    edited November 2010
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_ugghwhat?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:8604d8da-d971-4277-8215-def5a5b979c6Post:07af659a-1807-4cce-a7cc-e86e802b5d17">Re: Uggh...what do I do?</a>:
    [QUOTE]The next time she mentions double dating or getting together, I would be polite but to the point.  "Friend, FI and I are not comfortable being with your FI after the horribly rude and racist comments he made about FI in front of us, and how horribly he treats you as well as us.  I would love to see you as much as posisble, but I unfortunately will not make plans with you that involve your FI."  
    Posted by dnbeach12[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>I was working on a response, but then read this, which was so beautifully succinct.  </div><div>If I were you I'd try to spend time with her alone and keep being a friend to her. What is it that makes her think she doesn't deserve better than this a**hole?  </div><div>
    </div><div>I know that inviting her and not him appears to be a breach of etiquette, but event etiquette is principally about respect for, and the comfort and protection of your guests.  Based on his past behavior, he would violate all of these.  Therefore, I would make it clear to him  - to his face - that he is not invited to the wedding and why.  </div><div>
    </div><div>This may very well mean that she will not come, or it may wake him up to the effect his behavior has on other people.  Actions have consequences.  You can tell him that he has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a racist and a drunk, and is therefore not invited to an intimate family event.  Period.  Have one hired security person if she decides to come in case he decides to crash.  </div><div>
    </div><div>Best of luck to you and your friend.  She should get away from this guy.</div><div>
    </div><div>EDT: I would have left the dinner too.  One warning, then out the door.  Do not tolerate abusive behavior in any guise.

    </div>
  • I agree that we probably should have got up and left....it was a very awkward situation. I believe we were both fully concerned about her and wanted her to come with us honestly, and also, my friend was our ride for the evening. My fi was much more concerned at the time with the way she was being treated than how he was, and  was able to redirect her bf for most of the evening. He was simply unpredictable...one min. he'd be charming, and the next he'd throw out a comment so completely out of line it was just surprising. I sort of sat numb in my seat not knowing what to do. I felt like anything I might say or do would only draw more attention and would cause him to go into an uproar. Luckily, we won't have to wonder what to do in that situation anymore! Lesson learned....believe me.

    And yes, I feel crappy about our friendship being in jeopary over this idiot. I hope it doesn't come end b/c of it. I don't believe she holds those values and beliefs that he does  - at ALL....which is why I find this so perpllexing.
  • I vote don't invite either of them to the wedding. I don't think I could be friends with her anymore.

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  • Well, with all of that, I don't think I'd invite EITHER of them. 

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