Mentally handicapped "children"

AngelRiddle

Hi all, I really don't know how to discuss this without sounding insensitive, but here it goes...
My fiance and I are not inviting children to our wedding as the ceremony will be recorded as well as streamed live on the Internet and we don't wish to have the noise of obnoxious children (as is usually the case with the weddings I've been to that involve children).  One person who is a friend of my fiance's family has a daughter who is severely autistic. The girl is 26 years old and has the cognitive abilities of a 4-year-old.  In church, she is known for just randomly starting to shout unintelligibly in the middle of the sermon and just wondering around, shouting, and doing overall weird things...and the mother rarely does anything to stop her (though occasionally takes her out of the room for a few minutes, just for it to happen all over again).

Anyway, the mother has made it clear that she wants to bring her to the wedding and I have no idea how to ask her to not bring her.  I know that neither the mother or child can help their situation, but I'm afraid that the girl is just going to be unruly and distracting through the whole thing.  The mother is very sensitive on the topic of talking about her daughter (VERY understandably so!).  I think the mother wlil be hurt, but I doubt I can avoid that.  How should we approach this?

Megan+Adam

I can understand why you don't want someone yelling and wandering around during your wedding. 

My advice is just not to invite her and handle it the same way you'd handle not inviting anyone else. "Due to constraints on space and budget we cannnot accomodate your daughter. We're sorry for any inconvenience that this might cause and we hope you can still attend." 

mari0225

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:19925a04-1b4e-4067-b2b2-cadec26b1072">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Mentally handicapped "children" : You're right, it is hard to not sound insensitive. You just address the invitation to the mother only.  If she calls to ask about it, say that her daughter was not invited.  She sounds like she will say that she won't come if her daugther isn't invited.  Just say "I'm sorry to hear that, you will be missed.  I hope we can get together another time." (You can have your FI talk to her, as she is a friend of his family.) FWIW, I would probably invite her.  
Posted by crfb87[/QUOTE]

This, I would treat her as I would any other adult.

ETA: Also FTR I would invite her.

LeiselEB

My brother has Down syndrome and I would be very offended if someone said that he couldn't come to a wedding because he MIGHT make a noise during the ceremony. 

I don't know anything about this young woman's circumstances, but I'm willing to assume that her mother (who I'm assuming is her caretaker in some regard) will work with the woman to keep the "unintelligible shouting" and "overall weird things" to a minimum during your ceremony (what, 20 minutes?). 

This woman is obviously close enough to your fiance's family that they'd want her invited and I think you should respect that. Maybe being around someone with autism will open you up to being more accepting of people with disabilities.

Also - I think it's incredibly offensive that you'd equate a 26 year old woman with autism to a child in your subject. 

Edit: I sound a bit harsh, I'm just defensive about topics such as these, so I apoligize if you're offended. To answer your question, if you really don't want her invited, don't include her on the invite and don't tell the mom it's because of her autism. 

musicalsunlight

I had a situation somewhat similar. We had a no children wedding, but one of J's cousins has several mental and physical disabilities that renders her completely in the care of her mom and dad for the rest of her short life. She is 12 but mentally is an infant. We invited her knowing that she was normally quite disruptive in public. She actually didn't make a peep for the whole wedding. But J's aunt was so grateful for her being included. I would invite her in your case.

polichik

Calling an adult a child because of their challenges is incredibly insulting. Your wedding should be about having the people you love there, not staging an uninterrupted performance. Honestly, if I were the mother and knew that you were talking about my daughter this way, I wouldn't want to come to your wedding.

mari0225

Also I understand you weren't trying to be insulting, but as someone with physical differences, it is very hurtful to be treated differently. This woman has probably had very few breaks in her life, I don't think it's too much to cut her one.

musicalsunlight

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:03591883-33fe-480f-9d8d-b24d29b726cf">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]Also I understand you weren't trying to be insulting, but as someone with physical differences, it is very hurtful to be treated differently. This woman has probably had very few breaks in her life, I don't think it's too much to cut her one.
Posted by mari0225[/QUOTE]



I really like the way you put this. Completely agree.

shadowkat08

Two questions:

1. Have your invitations gone out yet?

2. If she were not autistic, would you still be inviting this woman and her mother? (I assume so, since you're hinting at inviting the mom.)

If your invitations haven't gone out, I find it a little... presumptuous (not the right word) that she's talking about bringing her daughter.

If you are close enough to the family that you would be inviting the lady if she didn't have autism, then I believe you need to invite her and trust that should she start causing a disturbance, her mother is courteous enough to remove her from the ceremony.  

ceh789

I think you should treat her as any other adult.  If you are inviting the adult children of other families, she should also be invited.

LeiselEB

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:f7640ba5-0927-4770-8d7b-31f8fd8ed50e">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree with MuSu, Mari. Also, I thought about this after I posted.  Does this woman (yes she is a 26 year old woman not a child) normally go to family events?  Has she ever been to a wedding?  Do you know how much fun weddings are?  What if a lot of other people treat her like this?  You and your FI now get to be the people who invite her to her first wedding. (If other people treat her like you do.)  Also, if you invite her (which you should) send her her own invitation.  <strong>You would send 2 invitations to the house.  1 for her mother (and father?) and 1 for her.</strong>
Posted by crfb87[/QUOTE]

<div>I totally agree with this.</div>

musicalsunlight

And even if she only has the cognitive abilities of a 4 year old, that still means she is able to ascertain her surroundings and enjoy herself and enjoy being included.

musicalsunlight

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:ce17f468-7ad4-47ea-80af-1b73735c1929">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm also curious who these people are who say someone is "known for making a disturbance". Pffft. Find something better to talk about.
Posted by rachers1017[/QUOTE]



In my case, I actually was the one who asked MIL about it. It is her sisters child and I didn't ask it in an "omg is she gonna be loud during my ceremony kind of way", but more just like "how is she usually out in public?" so that I would know either way. When MIL told me that she often has fits in public, I said ok and was ready to expect it. Either way, I still wanted to invite her.

musicalsunlight

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:0559d7db-4703-4e25-9556-f1f6851a4026">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Mentally handicapped "children" : That makes total sense.
Posted by rachers1017[/QUOTE]



I just wanted to make sure it was clear that J's family doesn't go around bitching about it haha.

AngelRiddle

FTR:  I have a younger sister who is also autistic (not nearly as severely so, though), so I am familiar with and understanding of disabilities.  My younger sister is certainly invited to the wedding as I know that she will not cause a scene.

The "child" comparison was more or less to give you an idea of the girl's state of mind, to convey the fact that she cannot communicate like most adults can (I have tried this), but I am sorry that some of you took that as offensive.  

My fiance's family is understanding of BOTH of us not wanting her invited.  It is a good perspective though that it is only the "important" 20 minutes that matters, so you're right that she may behave for that period of time, though not likely.

tiffad

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:f3fad5de-93d0-45ba-a605-af47a8d9b3a3">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]My brother has Down syndrome and I would be very offended if someone said that he couldn't come to a wedding because he MIGHT make a noise during the ceremony.  I don't know anything about this young woman's circumstances, but I'm willing to assume that her mother (who I'm assuming is her caretaker in some regard) will work with the woman to keep the "unintelligible shouting" and "overall weird things" to a minimum during your ceremony (what, 20 minutes?).  This woman is obviously close enough to your fiance's family that they'd want her invited and I think you should respect that. Maybe being around someone with autism will open you up to being more accepting of people with disabilities. Also - I think it's incredibly offensive that you'd equate a 26 year old woman with autism to a child in your subject.  Edit: I sound a bit harsh, I'm just defensive about topics such as these, so I apoligize if you're offended. To answer your question, if you really don't want her invited, don't include her on the invite and don't tell the mom it's because of her autism. 
Posted by LeiselEB[/QUOTE]

I agree with most everything Leisel said here. Just as her brother has Down syndrome my oldest daughter does also. My daughters Godfather also has a severely autistic brother. And the list goes on and on. If I were invited to a wedding but not my child because of their disabilty I would view that is as effectively terminating any friendship there was.

aragx6

Would the mother even be able to attend without her? I'm guessing that she's her primary caregiver. You should invite her as you would any other adult. And don't call her a child -- putting it in quotes definitely doesn't make it better.

barrelbabe004

I didn't read any of the responses but really? 

I can understand not wanting children there but for other reasons than "ruining" your wedding video but you seriously sound extremely insensitive.  I worked with disabled children (and yes they were really children, not "children") and I invited one and her family to my wedding because I had been working with her for several years.
She talked through my wedding and brought her stuffed dog with her, but did she "ruin" my wedding? No.  She actually made it better because she's someone that I know and care about and she was there sharing that time in my life with me.

I think you either invite her mother and her or neither.

SunriseAmber

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:0b9b3b4c-50f2-4f35-88f8-b767af71ef85">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]Calling an adult a child because of their challenges is incredibly insulting. Your wedding should be about having the people you love there, not staging an uninterrupted performance. Honestly, if I were the mother and knew that you were talking about my daughter this way, I wouldn't want to come to your wedding.
Posted by polichik[/QUOTE]

Thank you for posting this. I agree with you 100%. I had a handicapped sister and knowing there are people like you who accept it and understand makes me want to hug you. A lot.

LeiselEB

Angel - wouldn't you be upset, then, if someone didn't invite your sister to their wedding because she has autism? Everyone's situation is different, but I would be upset by that. 

I want my ceremony to be perfect, too - but if it meant not inviting someone I care about then it wouldn't be perfect, know what I mean? If this person/family isn't close to you guys then go ahead and don't invite her, but it sounds like it might cause more harm than good to do so. I'd say invite this woman and let her parents decide whether or not they bring her. 

AngelRiddle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:f64a0969-8807-4f77-b747-28823372fc74">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Mentally handicapped "children" : Then maybe you can understand what it might feel like if your sister was left out of a family wedding because the bride didn't want her to make noise.
Posted by crfb87[/QUOTE]

Family wedding - yes, I wouldn't be happy.  A friend's - I'd be fairly indifferent.  I can invite my sister because I know she won't cause a scene.  Everyone else knows she won't because she's not known for that.

aragx6

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:292e4fad-ba38-4416-809a-a9e17e2b95a1">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Mentally handicapped "children" : Family wedding - yes, I wouldn't be happy.  A friend's - I'd be fairly indifferent.  I can invite my sister because I know she won't cause a scene.  Everyone else knows she won't because she's not known for that.
Posted by AngelRiddle[/QUOTE]

"Friend of my FI's family" means family friend. Not sure of the dynamics of your FI's family, but I'm guessing because they are invited in the first place family friend pretty much equals family.

MiksChick23

Erg...this is one of those topics that really pushes buttons with people. I never quite know how to word things b/c no matter what you say, someone is offended.

I think you treat it the same as if she was not mentally challenged - would you invite her if she did not have autism? That is how I would tackle it. Same as a mentally challenged child, if someone had one, you couldn't invite some people's kids and not theirs b/c of their disability, KWIM? If she was perfectly "normal" (not trying to sound insensitive) and you would have invited her, then keep her on the guest list, but if you are feeling obligated to invite her only b/c she requires her parents care, I believe its a different story.

Just remember, if you do not wish to invite this person to your wedding, you are under no obligation to do so, but tread lightly because it might affect your or your FI's realtionship with her mother. If you chose not to invite her, address the invitation to the parents only. Treat it the same if she RSVPs back WITH her daughter as you would with anyone responding back with an uninvited person. "I'm sorry but we are unable to accomodate everyone, only you and the Mr were invited." Again, this may cause her to decline or have her feelings hurt, but she may understand also, I don't know her well enough to know.

You need to decide if the possibility of her outbursts outweighs the potential relationship damage with the mother. I have a hard time believing people who care for their mentally challenged adult children wouldn't be understanding of this, but I have no personal experience in the matter.

Edit: OP has made it clear she is not trying to be insensitive or prejudiced. So harping on her choice of words isn't really helping. =(

AngelRiddle

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:e973a949-c4b2-4b7a-b8da-4c1c794d400e">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]Erg...this is one of those topics that really pushes buttons with people. I never quite know how to word things b/c no matter what you say, someone is offended. I think you treat it the same as if she was not mentally challenged - would you invite her if she did not have autism? That is how I would tackle it. Same as a mentally challenged child, if someone had one, you couldn't invite some people's kids and not theirs b/c of their disability, KWIM? If she was perfectly "normal" (not trying to sound insensitive) and you would have invited her, then keep her on the guest list, but if you are feeling obligated to invite her only b/c she requires her parents care, I believe its a different story. Just remember, if you do not wish to invite this person to your wedding, you are under no obligation to do so, but tread lightly because it might affect your or your FI's realtionship with her mother. If you chose not to invite her, address the invitation to the parents only. Treat it the same if she RSVPs back WITH her daughter as you would with anyone responding back with an uninvited person. "I'm sorry but we are unable to accomodate everyone, only you and the Mr were invited." Again, this may cause her to decline or have her feelings hurt, but she may understand also, I don't know her well enough to know. You need to decide if the possibility of her outbursts outweighs the potential relationship damage with the mother. I have a hard time believing people who care for their mentally challenged adult children wouldn't be understanding of this, but I have no personal experience in the matter. Edit: OP has made it clear she is not trying to be insensitive or prejudiced. So harping on her choice of words isn't really helping. =(
Posted by MiksChick23[/QUOTE]

This.

Thank you.  The handicap is not the issue, it's the behavior.  My FI is really only friends with this woman because she's friends with his parents.  The girl's father is quite present in her life (just not living with them), so he could take care of her, as the mother has made it clear that he will not be attending.

Inviting her anyway sounds to me like good advice, though, as you all do present valid points. 

I doubt any bride in the world can say that she did not worry over petty matters...just saying.

Peace!

MiksChick23

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:0b9b3b4c-50f2-4f35-88f8-b767af71ef85">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]Calling an adult a child because of their challenges is incredibly insulting. Your wedding should be about having the people you love there, not staging an uninterrupted performance. Honestly, if I were the mother and knew that you were talking about my daughter this way, I wouldn't want to come to your wedding.
Posted by polichik[/QUOTE]

Example. Not trying to start something here. But not every one is up to speed on the PC terms. I think she meant "adult child" which is the proper term, no? I'm just saying that she is trying really hard to be sensitive.

Meghannsix

I agree with Miks above.

FWIW, we attended my cousin's wedding last fall.  He has an adopted brother, who basically was born a crack baby.  He has special needs, and my aunt and uncle adopted him when he was an infant, he is now in his early 20's with the mental capacity of a three yr old.  During the ceremony, he enjoyed singing along to the hymns, and quieted down a few moments after each was over, and at the reception, he danced all night, spinning and smiling like it was the happiest day of his life.  It was sweet and inspiring to see that pure joy.   If you really don't want to chance it, don't invite her, but think it over, and be prepared for the reaction.

RealHappyGal

Im not mad at the OP at all for posing this question.... You know your own motives and feelings.  Im not gonna tell you that u are a messed up individual cuz this crossed your mind.  Further, if the very same reason you didnt invite children is the reason that you dont want to invite her then I think its worth a thought.  Point is that you dont want anyone being disruptive during your ceremony.  Weather that be a crying baby, a running around todler, some1 with terrets, an autistic adult or a drunk uncle.  You want silence and reverence at the moment that you receive the sacrament of blessing or committment (or whatever it is) of marriage. 
Be it that you dont want to be offensive.  I understand why you would wonder about what is appropriate in this situation and I dont think you are a jerk for it.

You and FI have to figure out the dynamic of the situation. 

wowand135

I do not think that OP is being insensitive at all. That's why she's asking, to make sure she doesn't come accross that way.

My younger brother has severe autism and retardation. He makes a huge scene in public. Very, very loud and can scream, bite, etc. Sometimes he's fine but you never know. He is 24 and yes, I see him as a child. Kind of in a my cute little baby brother way. He requires constant supervision, and since I want my mom to enjoy the wedding and be a part of the big day, I am also unsure of what to do with him. I also want him there so I'm torn too.

Nobody can truly understand your particular situation or family/friend member unless they know you personally. I would do what you want to do, taking into consideration the other comments such as how close is this woman to the family. Especially since she is not your actual family, and as long as it doesn't offend your or FI's family, I think it's ok to not have her there. Offending a friend is not a good enough reason for me. I would definitely talk to FMIL more about it.

It's a very difficult call. Good luck!

MoonlightSilver

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:292e4fad-ba38-4416-809a-a9e17e2b95a1">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Mentally handicapped "children" : Family wedding - yes, I wouldn't be happy.  A friend's - I'd be fairly indifferent. <strong> I can invite my sister because I know she won't cause a scene. </strong> Everyone else knows she won't because she's not known for that.
Posted by AngelRiddle[/QUOTE]

<div>How horrible. You would refuse to invite your own sister if you thought she would cause a "scene?" </div><div>
</div><div>I'm asking my autistic brother to give a speech at my wedding. My wedding would be IMperfect without him.</div><div>
</div><div>Invite the people you want to be there, regardless of their behavior.</div>

RealHappyGal

Is this lady's (the 26 year old) invitation ONLY being considered BECAUSE she is autistic.  If she was not autistic, just the 26yr old daughter, living a normal life, not needing assistance would she had been invited??  Because it seems that the mother is the friend of the family....

LetsHikeToday

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_mentally-handicapped-children?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:9f9e41ea-af9e-4314-8744-c2dc58d8175fPost:3934b45b-e219-43d7-9871-19ff4169ab6a">Re: Mentally handicapped "children"</a>:
[QUOTE]I would invite her. Potentially ruining a relationship or really hurting someone's feelings is not worth a video to me.
Posted by rachers1017[/QUOTE]



I agree with this. My wedding wasn't so special that I would have left out an adult with autism that is close family friends with my H.