S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll

louisvillebride21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:81334e72-4b2b-4fd5-a2e6-449e05316576">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll : I think most agnostic/atheist/otherwise inclined people have had the "what if I'm wrong?" moment Jasmine so you're definitely not alone.  What concerns me is what if the whackos are right?  I mean, the far far far extremely right -wing fundamentalist conservatives that think everyone that they hate, God also hates and are condemned to eternal suffering in hell.  What if these people aren't misguided?  That's enough to give me pause.  Jerry Falwell making it to heaven....::shudder::
Posted by 526SadieSadie[/QUOTE]
You seem to be stuck on the extremists. What about the MILLIONS of other Christians that are comfortably right in the middle? Why is all of our good work and beliefs discounted because of some crazies?

526SadieSadie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:14b87792-fae2-4563-a8bc-c4ea5edc06b3">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll : Those are all extremes I think.  I mean, I'm not Christian, I'm not religious but even I know that the things you listed here are not generalizations.  Those are extreme crazy people circumstances.  My Dad left his wife and 4 kids with $60 in the bank and no car because God told him to, but I certainly don't think for a second that all other Christians would do the same thing.
Posted by danieliza1127[/QUOTE]

Of course it's extreme, but I think society judges religions too harshly by looking at their most extreme members.  I mean there are people walking around with tshirts that say "kill them all, let allah sort them out" for crying out loud.
No one's interested in the middles, the extremes are the ones to worry about

danieliza1127

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:a897baae-762a-4e9d-9493-18d6ea147f28">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll : Of course it's extreme, but I think society judges religions too harshly by looking at their most extreme members.  I mean there are people walking around with tshirts that say "kill them all, let allah sort them out" for crying out loud. No one's interested in the middles, the extremes are the ones to worry about
Posted by 526SadieSadie[/QUOTE]

Yeah but that's not what you were getting at.  You basically said that LVB feeling her faith in her heart is the same as the crazy people feeling their faith in their heart.  There's a difference between religious faith and mental illness.

eastunder1

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:28b81540-a4a3-4e37-9ab1-e1518b63b66e">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]Again Louisville, no offense intended and I'm honestly not making fun, but the "I feel it in my heart" thing sounds like a major cop-out. There are many people who feel things in their hearts that are still wrong.  It can be argued that people who kill people because "god wants them to" believe with every fiber of their being that the murder is ok.  Beliefs are sometimes dangerous.  The gunman who murders a doctor who provides abortion services in front of his entire family, spraying his blood on his children, believes that what he did was right.
Posted by 526SadieSadie[/QUOTE]

People like you, Sadie, irritate me to no end.   Louisville wanting to pray or celebrate her religion has nothing to do with an extremist killing innocent people in a subway because "god wanted him too."   I guess no one should ever believe or not believe in<span style="font-style:italic;"> anything</span> because there are nutjobs out there who will take it to a absurd level? 

Its a complete stretch, its insulting and its incredibly small minded.  

526SadieSadie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:a3a80723-04bb-4724-912d-9ebdbec155f8">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll : I think that's such a stretch. I'm not hurting anyone by believing that my God exists. I don't push my religion on anyone, I don't try to convert anyone, I don't take my beliefs to what I see as extremes. What does it matter to anyone what I practice in my home and in my place of worship? How does it hurt anyone that I might 'talk to God' in my car during my commute? I don't see saying that as a cop out because I'm not trying to DO anything here. I'm not trying to convert you, I'm simply having a discussion on MY beliefs.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

It simply doesn't hurt anyone, Louisville.  The way you personally (and all those good people like you) express your faith and your beliefs doesn't hurt anyone, like I said it's the extremists that give all religious people a bad name.

jasmineh7777

Wading, I am actually very liberal in my views, which is why I often have a hard time reconciling the views of my Church with all of my other views.
My Church still doesn't acknowledge thay animals have souls, which I firmly believe they do. There are a lot of discrepencies that I am working through.
My FI and I share all of the same core values, except a belief in God.

I really didn't mean to sound judgmental. I have no problem with other people's beliefs, nor am I trying to say that they shouldn't celebrate these holidays. I wanted to know if these holidays are largely viewed as secular now, which obviously they are. Had I asked this of my family or professors, I would have gotten an entirely different response. So even though I didn't phrase everything eloquently, I do enjoy hearing everyone's different beliefs and perspectives.

louisvillebride21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:a5e8ffb0-e50d-46cb-abd6-0f9b56d00407">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll : It simply doesn't hurt anyone, Louisville.  The way you personally (and all those good people like you) express your faith and your beliefs doesn't hurt anyone, like I said it's the extremists that give all religious people a bad name.
Posted by 526SadieSadie[/QUOTE]
What if I started talking about all the awful, hateful atheists I've come across? Those that call me ignorant because I have a faith? I've met some atheists that are awful people and I could let that cloud my judgement of all of you. But I don't. How would I rectify that belief with the fact that my best friend is an atheist yet is one of the kindest people I've ever met? You're bordering on that line when someone says ..."no offence...but..." Just because you qualify it doesn't mean it's not going to come across that way.

526SadieSadie

Ladies, I tangented a bit, and if I offended you, I apologize.  What I was trying to say is that people bastardize religion to explain anything away.  I'm not at all saying that Louisville is a dangerous person, I'm not saying that all religious people are stupid, or misguided or dangerous. 
I don't buy the "I feel it in my heart" thing.  I just dont.  You don't have to try to convince me of otherwise, I'm not trying to bring you over to my side, either

louisvillebride21

What's to buy? Just because you don't feel it in yours? Well, I can't feel or see my friend's fibromialsia (sp), yet I know he feels it and it effects his life. I don't know what I (we) are trying to explain away...?

danieliza1127

Sadie, a lot of the things you're saying are reasons why I don't agree with organized religion and don't believe in Christianity, but you just have a way of explaining it that is off-putting and kind of insulting.  I'm sure you don't mean it that way.

526SadieSadie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:bc385cfd-5244-4943-aee8-bebcf368a681">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll : What if I started talking about all the awful, hateful atheists I've come across? Those that call me ignorant because I have a faith? I've met some atheists that are awful people and I could let that cloud my judgement of all of you. But I don't. How would I rectify that belief with the fact that my best friend is an atheist yet is one of the kindest people I've ever met?<strong> You're bordering on that line when someone says ..."no offence...but..." Just because you qualify it doesn't mean it's not going to come across that way.</strong>
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

The difference is, I honestly am not trying to offend you.  When some people say "no offense but..." they are using it as a shelter so they can still take a dig and offend you.  I was really, truly not trying to offend you.  You seem like you're a sensitive person and you've said that you struggle with your faith.  I'm not trying to upset you, even though you find my opinion upsetting.

tenofcups4me

I voted yes, but that's not 100% accurate. I "celebrate" the Jewish holidays with my family in that I'll go to (or make) a Passover sedar, but I don't keep Passover (not eating bread and other things) for the 8 days. Or I don't typically fast on Yom Kippur but I do join my family for a dinner to break the fast. 

With Dh's family, we have a secular Christmas day, but we wouldn't think of going to church with them. I'm certain they have a religious aspect to their day, but it's not when we're around. And we don't celebrate Easter with them since in their family that's more of a religious holiday.  

So...yes and no.

jasmineh7777

Religion is one of those things that is is hard to discuss because people often feel strongly about it. It's also really hard to have convey things through text, but I'm much rather have the conversation than not have it.
LVB- I get what you mean about the feeling. I call it the "church feeling" that you got when you're little and go into a church. I've just found that it's faded some as I got older.

I think for me, being an atheist would mean accepting death as the end. I cannot bring myself to do that without having a panic attack. I admire my FI's and other's ability to not be afraid of death.

louisvillebride21

Look, I'm not offended, I'm not upset, I'm not anything. I was equating you saying "Not to make fun of you...but..." It came across as sincere as the 'no offese...but' line. Me struggling with my faith has nothing to do with any sensitivity that I may or may not have. I was doing totally fine until you equated me to an abortion dr.  killer. I'm not offended that you don't share the view that I do. I was taken aback that you made such a jump.

Celles

Of all the arguments for religion, the one I respect the most is "I feel it in my heart."  I might side-eye someone who tries to build a logical or evidentiary case for religion... but faith I can accept, even if I can't personally understand it. 

louisvillebride21

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:dfcd4bb5-c5b7-40f0-a54d-5e6ef32b04d1">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE] I think for me, being an atheist would mean accepting death as the end. I cannot bring myself to do that without having a panic attack. I admire my FI's and other's ability to not be afraid of death.
Posted by jasmineh7777[/QUOTE]
For me, it scares me more that I would never see my loved ones again. One lifetime with my husband is not enough. The thought that I would never ever get to see my dad again? Brings me to tears.

526SadieSadie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:1cc593b9-7199-473e-a336-da461c39e1a1">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]Sadie, a lot of the things you're saying are reasons why I don't agree with organized religion and don't believe in Christianity, but you just have a way of explaining it that is off-putting and kind of insulting.  I'm sure you don't mean it that way.
Posted by danieliza1127[/QUOTE]

Thanks Danieliza, I try to censor myself and re-word things but they still come out offensively even if I'm unconscious of it.  When it comes out wrong and it's brought to my attention, I apologize sincerely.  I have to remember that when I talk about things like religion, I'm not Bill Maher.

jasmineh7777

That too LVB, but nothingness just makes me shudder. Not having any conscious thought, even though I wouldn't be "aware" of not being aware.
My priest recently told me that I need to accept death as part of the cycle, and my response was "Not quite yet." If I knew there was no God, I think I'd have to have myself frozen.

louisvillebride21

Yeah, I'm so worried that the 2012 thing is right because I'm not ready yet!

526SadieSadie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:4dc555ea-955e-4907-8f92-a3cbad7187b1">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]Look, I'm not offended, I'm not upset, I'm not anything. I was equating you saying "Not to make fun of you...but..." It came across as sincere as the 'no offese...but' line. Me struggling with my faith has nothing to do with any sensitivity that I may or may not have. I was doing totally fine until you equated me to an abortion dr.  killer. I'm not offended that you don't share the view that I do. I was taken aback that you made such a jump.
Posted by louisvillebride21[/QUOTE]

Whoa whoa whoa, I wasn't saying that you personally have a gun in your trunk and were on the lookout!!  Please don't take it that way.  I was trying, inarticulately, to say that peace and violence can have the same roots, it's when the individual takes a turn.  That's what I meant to say. When people believe something in their heart and interpret it can go a couple of different ways.  That's what I should have said, my editing button is broken.  Because the same feeling can be turned into violence, I think the feeling is a cop out.

ohwhynot

Sadie, imo religious extremists don't give religious people a bad name.  They give religious extremists a bad name.  I honestly don't understand why you would give them so much power as to act as if they = religious people.  They don't.  They = themselves, and themselves only.  I think it's very small-minded to say that because there are extremists, then every religious person is tarnished by the acts of those extremists. 

That attitude resulted in mosques being vandalized and threatened after 9-11. 

MattsPenguin

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:95a005ba-7777-4339-ba3f-366e4e0b91f6">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]We celebrate Christmas.  But by celebrate I mean "Buy people we care about presents and think happy well wishy thoughts."  I don't think Christmas has much to do with religion to a great percentage of the population anymore anyways.    Thats not to say I'm dismissing it's religious beginnings as frivilous, but it would be ridiculous to argue that a non-religious person should not celebrate a holiday that has clearly mainstreamed into much more than just that.  We do not celebrate Easter.  I'm actually in Vegas the capital of sin every year on Easter, a fact that I find humorously ironic.  I can't think of any other religious holidays.  
Posted by eastunder1[/QUOTE]

We were in Vegas for Easter two years ago.  We actually went to a wedding on Good Friday.  I definitely felt kind of weird about it. 

I find these responses all interesting.  I'm a practicing Christian, and can't imagine separating the birth of Christ from Christmas.  I don't really think about Jesus while opening the gifts, but we attend church on Christmas Eve, read the Bible that night and pray the next day before dinner.

To each his own.

jasmineh7777

I am far too neurotic to look into the 2012 stuff. I'd be making FI build my a fallout shelter in the back yard.

louisvillebride21

That feeling can go bad? That's a cop out? I've heard love can go bad too. Ever hear of crazy stalkers? Love someone SO MUCH that they can't stand the thought of them being with anyone else, so they kill them? You're just making a straw man argument and it's making the rest of your argument sound foolish. I don't give a damn if you're not a Christian, I really truly don't. I don't care if you don't UNDERSTAND how I can feel something in my heart. But I do think you saying it's a cop out doesn't make any sense.

526SadieSadie

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_atheistagnostic-question-poll?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:dae04e66-42aa-4bf8-b09d-e8fb8df0294dPost:d6aaf988-31d5-43af-8534-5a6f9640ece1">Re: S/O Atheist/Agnostic Question and Poll</a>:
[QUOTE]Sadie, imo religious extremists don't give religious people a bad name.  They give religious extremists a bad name.  I honestly don't understand why you would give them so much power as to act as if they = religious people.  They don't.  They = themselves, and themselves only.  I think it's very small-minded to say that because there are extremists, then every religious person is tarnished by the acts of those extremists.  That attitude resulted in mosques being vandalized and threatened after 9-11. 
Posted by ohwhynot[/QUOTE]
 
I completely understand what you're saying OWN, and I agree and this might be some backpedaling here, but I think I said (or again, meant to say, way TRYING to say) that the non-religious society is exposed to the extremist views more often and that's maybe what they use as a guide when it comes to the religious communities.  We (the big we) hear about the bombings and the shootings and all of the horrible things carried out in the name of religion, how often do we hear good things?  After a while, people tend to assume the worst.
If all you heard about was the angry green men who kick you in the shins, grab your boobs and steal your purse, would you judge the first green man you saw by that standard, or would you give him the benefit of the doubt?  You can say I'm crazy but since my religion-based examples didn't go over so well, I thought I'd try a different approach. 

526SadieSadie

I don't think the majority of religious people are dangerous, scary or stupid.  I think that as individuals, people are good and kind and generally intelligent, but as a society, we are scared and jumpy and capable of doing more horror to each other than the most sadistic filmmakers in Hollywood. 

jasmineh7777

Saying that it is a "cop out" implies that you think it is not a valid reason. Obviously, LVB and myself think it is a perfectly valid reason, as it is the basis of our faith.
That's likely not what you meant Sadie, but the phrase "cop out" has a negative connotation.

526SadieSadie

What do you suggest then, Jasmine? What word or phrasing wouldn't have offended?  Please tell me so I don't say that in person to someone and get punched in the face.  I really want to know.

louisvillebride21

"I'm sorry, I can't understand that feeling. Not something I've ever experienced."

jasmineh7777

You just can't relate to that feeling and that's fine. Just because you can't relate, doesn't mean it's a "cop out" on my part. I don't have better words to explain it because it's not empirical. I wouldn't say "cop out' because to me it sounds like, "well, that's bullshit."
It's tough to articulate yourself on a message board sometimes.
Apparently, we're both offending people, and we're on opposite sides of the spectrum.