This whole story is sad

crfische

Yeah, the raping to me is on a different level OBVIOUSLY than the verbal/cyber bullying.

Britne, no one is excusing their behavior, but rather making the case that some adults should have intervened here.

And I promise you that not every teen who is bullying someone is a sociopath. That's ridiculous.

shellydiane820

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:60db01fd-9511-4fed-8882-dc70d629d7b4">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : I think people need to be careful of how often we say that about teenagers. They aren't sheltered anymore, consequences are out there.  You'd have to be a sociopath to not know as a teenager, what they were doing was wrong.  I'm sure a few of them are surprised they are being charged but still things like raping the girl, you know if you get caught you are getting charged.
Posted by britne28[/QUOTE]


But what I'm saying is when they are abusing this girl, they aren't thinking "I'm going to get caught."  They are being impulsive.  I don't doubt they knew what they were doing was wrong.  But I don't think they cared.  I think they thought "how can we bring this girl down?"  They didn't think "When we bring her down, what will happen to us?"  I think its obvious they didn't think things through.

sweetpea0911

It's scary how many parents turn a blind eye to what their children do.

My mom called the school every day when I was in high school, and they didn't do a blessed thing.  They brought an author to my school who wrote about her own experiences being bullied after the 3rd kid successfully committed suicide and everyone just laughed at her - teachers included.  High school was the worst period of my life.

And the best part?  The one girl who tormented me the most?  Wrote me a card in the hospital that said, "I'm sorry you're too retarded to actually finish it properly.  Get well soon!  When my mom called her mom about it, her mom saw no problem with it.

ac_in_dc

Yeah, I agree with Heels when she said she thought the whole MySpace bullying episode caused schools to take this shiit more seriously.

Haven't we figured out systematic ways to intervene and prevent/stop bullying now? I thought that things had changed since I was in school.

andyandhillary

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:60db01fd-9511-4fed-8882-dc70d629d7b4">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : I think people need to be careful of how often we say that about teenagers. They aren't sheltered anymore, consequences are out there.  You'd have to be a sociopath to not know as a teenager, what they were doing was wrong.  I'm sure a few of them are surprised they are being charged but still things like raping the girl, you know if you get caught you are getting charged.
Posted by britne28[/QUOTE]

I think part of what Fische is talking about (tell me if I'm wrong Fische) is the issue of group think.  Maybe the kids know that by logic certain things are bad but when people (not even just teenagers) get in large groups your judgment and rational thinking is completely altered.  This is the issue with mobs, hazing, riots, etc. 

swtasa

Those kids absolutely deserve the charges being brought against them. They knew they were making her miserable, they did it intentionally. People who bully do it to make people miserable. Even my 5 year old knows when you say mean things it hurts peoples feelings.

The school should be held responsible as well. It's their job to teach and protect students during school hours, they obviously were not doing this for the poor girl. My mom was teased in school and she was kind of bullied but she agreed it didn't compare to what kids did to me when I was in HS. I doubt that it's gotten better probably worse since I was there.

However her mother does have a very good lawsuit against the school system. I would suggest she pursue that. If not for her daughter's sake, but for another child who might go through the same thing

goheels05

Meh, I would have argued that they do understand the consequences of their actions, but based on fishy's profession, she knows better than I would. 

BecW2be

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:7b270c7f-484b-45f3-be7a-56d44c2da0ba">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : But what I'm saying is when they are abusing this girl, they aren't thinking "I'm going to get caught."  They are being impulsive.  I don't doubt they knew what they were doing was wrong.  But I don't think they cared.  I think they thought "how can we bring this girl down?"  They didn't think "When we bring her down, what will happen to us?"  I think its obvious they didn't think things through.
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]

Exactly. And they got away with it the first time, so they tried it again. They noticed teachers and administrators weren't stepping in, so they continued. Kids need immediate consequences to understand cause and effect. If someone had shut them down and punished them after the first time(s), it wouldn't have continued.

Their own parents could have prevented their behavior at home as well. My girls know that the very first time I find out they are making fun of someone or bullying someone, all hell breaks loose. If they want to poke fun of someone's clothes or appearance, every single article of clothing they own goes to Goodwill, and I'll buy them 3-4 outfits from Goodwill to wear when I make my drop off. I grew up dirt poor, and I was ridiculed and bullied until 11th grade. I don't play around when it comes to mean kids, and I damn sure won't have any in my house.

andyandhillary

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:98bf62f7-abf4-45dc-8640-d2821626ab75">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : Exactly. And they got away with it the first time, so they tried it again. They noticed teachers and administrators weren't stepping in, so they continued. Kids need immediate consequences to understand cause and effect. If someone had shut them down and punished them after the first time(s), it wouldn't have continued. Their own parents could have prevented their behavior at home as well. My girls know that the very first time I find out they are making fun of someone or bullying someone, all hell breaks loose. If they want to poke fun of someone's clothes or appearance, every single article of clothing they own goes to Goodwill, and I'll buy them 3-4 outfits from Goodwill to wear when I make my drop off. I grew up dirt poor, and I was ridiculed and bullied until 11th grade. I don't play around when it comes to mean kids, and I damn sure won't have any in my house.
Posted by BecW2be[/QUOTE]


You're a kickass mom, Bec.

FutureMrsTR

Thank you FIsche for saying what I'm trying to say much more intelligently than I was.

And even if they do think about the consequences for themselves and choose to ignore them, they certainly don't think of how their actions are affecting other people in the long term.  Teenagers are selfish creatures by nature.  There are exceptions, of course, but as a rule they just have to grow out of it.  That's not to say that their actions can't be controlled by adults or that they shouldn't have consequences at all.

crfische

Heels, I would agree that if they HAD been being consequenced for their actions, they would have been more likely to understand what they were doing.

BEcause they did it SO LONG with ZERO consequences, how are they to know the severity of what they are doing if everyone knows they are doing it, and no one does anything?

It's hard to teach kids behavior-consequence, when it's just behavior with NO consequence.

So, I actually think we agree.

sweetpea0911

Bec - I wish there were more parents like you out there.

britne28

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:eeda05e0-10cd-4bd4-aa94-151b38a01d3f">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]Yeah, the raping to me is on a different level OBVIOUSLY than the verbal/cyber bullying. Britne, no one is excusing their behavior, but rather making the case that some adults should have intervened here. And I promise you that not every teen who is bullying someone is a sociopath. That's ridiculous.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

Didn't say that every teen who bullies is a sociopath, that would be ridiculous.  But most teens that bully do know it is wrong hence them not being a sociopath.  I know the ones that bullied me knew they were doing wrong and didn't care one whit. 

And I know no one is excusing their behaviour.  But I think saying that their brains, true as it is, aren't developed can create a slippery slope of some people saying well they can't help themselves. 

shellydiane820

To add on to my previous statement, think about when you were that age, and you messed up, what was (usually) said.  "What were you thinking?!"

I know my response was "I don' t know."  --because clearly, I wasn't.

FutureMrsTR

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:36398c38-9fda-4221-958b-bbee2e6e30db">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : Didn't say that every teen who bullies is a sociopath, that would be ridiculous.  But most teens that bully do know it is wrong hence them not being a sociopath.  I know the ones that bullied me knew they were doing wrong and didn't care one whit.  And I know no one is excusing their behaviour. <strong> But I think saying that their brains, true as it is, aren't developed can create a slippery slope of some people saying well they can't help themselves.</strong> 
Posted by britne28[/QUOTE]

What is the slippery slope if no one is excusing their behavior?  I could see your argument if anyone was saying, "Oh, kids will be kids, don't punish them" but that's not the case.

britne28

And absolutely the teachers and parents let everyone down.  We need more people like Bec.  I was brought up with a lot of love and a lot of boundaries.  There would have been no question my parents would have come down on me if I did anything remotely like that. 

crfische

Every good lifetime movie will let you know that there is usually one or two kids leading the pack, and the rest fall in line because A) They dont want the bullying turned on them and If you're not with them, you're a against them. And that is a scary place to be.

aMrsin09

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:f61f7fba-ceef-4ba2-a001-88e5418dd1e9">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]To add on to my previous statement, think about when you were that age, and you messed up, what was (usually) said.  "What were you thinking?!" I know my response was "I don' t know."  --because clearly, I wasn't.
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]

Oh Shelly, that response did nothing but earn me a whole lot of time to reflect on what I <em>should</em> have been thinking.

andyandhillary

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:40fec1af-0de0-4b31-9dd0-bf483fbdb3ae">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE] I wonder if teachers took more time to explain it and discuss the consequences if it would make any difference.
Posted by lovethebeach16[/QUOTE]


I think it's all about consequences that will effect <strong>them</strong>.  In 8th grade some kids started making fun of a girl (who later became homecoming queen!) for smelling bad.  So then our teacher (small grade of one class) told us we were a bunch of jerks and that if she hears one more thing we aren't going on our 8th grade trips or doing anything remotely fun/interesting the rest of the year.  You can bet those kids STFU.  Like someone else said, teenagers are selfish which is why personal consequences register more. 

goheels05

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:2d666b3d-7e1d-451a-ae50-fdaecf0f1c00">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]Heels, I would agree that if they HAD been being consequenced for their actions, they would have been more likely to understand what they were doing. BEcause they did it SO LONG with ZERO consequences, how are they to know the severity of what they are doing if everyone knows they are doing it, and no one does anything? It's hard to teach kids behavior-consequence, when it's just behavior with NO consequence. So, I actually think we agree.
Posted by crfische[/QUOTE]

That makes a lot of sense. 

shellydiane820

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:12ec89be-afd1-4a00-9b60-b067ebbf7395">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : Oh Shelly, that response did nothing but earn me a whole lot of time to reflect on what I should have been thinking.
Posted by aMrsin09[/QUOTE]


oh yes.  I remember.  After the "I don' t know"  the lecture that came afterwards...I would think to myself "I should have said this instead."

AlexiaANDRobert

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:44c50930-d795-4166-b807-b53f80302981">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : oh yes.  I remember.  After the "I don' t know"  the lecture that came afterwards...I would think to myself "I should have said this instead."
Posted by shellydiane820[/QUOTE]

I always got in more trouble for saying "I don't know."  That sucked.

mwhitson14

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:98bf62f7-abf4-45dc-8640-d2821626ab75">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : Exactly. And they got away with it the first time, so they tried it again. They noticed teachers and administrators weren't stepping in, so they continued. Kids need immediate consequences to understand cause and effect. <strong>If someone had shut them down and punished them after the first time(s), it wouldn't have continued.</strong> Their own parents could have prevented their behavior at home as well. My girls know that the very first time I find out they are making fun of someone or bullying someone, all hell breaks loose. If they want to poke fun of someone's clothes or appearance, every single article of clothing they own goes to Goodwill, and I'll buy them 3-4 outfits from Goodwill to wear when I make my drop off. I grew up dirt poor, and I was ridiculed and bullied until 11th grade. I don't play around when it comes to mean kids, and I damn sure won't have any in my house.
Posted by BecW2be[/QUOTE]

The thing is though, we don't know that it wouldn't have continued.

I have a cliquey group of kids in my class that are horrible bullies to a wicked smart gifted child in my glass. The clique has been seperated. They're not allowed to play together on the playground. They can't sit together at lunch. They've been punished in every way I can think of to punish them. The school knows. The parents know (boys will be boys!), and they still won't stop. He was crying yesterday because I slipped up and let one of them get a drink of water while the gifted student went to the bathroom, and the boy called him a gay slur.

Punishments don't always work. Sometimes, kids just honestly don't' care anymore what happens to them. I know the students in question weren't punished, but I just wanted to point out that even punishing them may not have helped.

swtasa

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:60db01fd-9511-4fed-8882-dc70d629d7b4">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : I think people need to be careful of how often we say that about teenagers. They aren't sheltered anymore, consequences are out there.  You'd have to be a sociopath to not know as a teenager, what they were doing was wrong.  I'm sure a few of them are surprised they are being charged but still things like raping the girl, you know if you get caught you are getting charged.
Posted by britne28[/QUOTE]

Statutory rape is a little bit different then typical rape charges. It's typical brought against people above the age of consent in a state for having sexual relationships with people under the age of consent, or people not mentally capable to consenting to sexual acts.

katiewhompus

I definitely think the kids and admins involved need to have consequences occur. When I was in high school I was bullied to the point where I seriously considered suicide just to make it stop. I had told admin on multiple occasions what was going on and it was occurring in the classroom right in front of the teachers. It finally came to a head when I had enough, screamed "fuuck you" at the student and ran out the door. One of my friends turned to the teacher on the way out, yelled "what the hell is wrong with you that you let this happen" and came out after me. He found me sobbing in the girls bathroom.  I was a very very quiet non-confrontation kid so this was a huge deal in a school of 400 people.
Even then it only ended because my dad (who taught at the school and had also spoken with the admin) threatened to sue the school for allowing it to happen, and because several of my friends threatened the guy with bodily harm (I found out about it later) after school was let out. Oh, and the little bit about me telling the principal that if he said one more word I was going to rip the guys tongue out.
He received 3 days out of school suspension.

There have been so many cases of school wide bullying resulting in suicide that it's just heart breaking. I'm sorry, but if you are old enough to drive, smoke, serve in the military/own a gun, get married in many states, you can face the consequences for harassing someone to such an extreme.

sweetpea0911

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:a35d76b9-1217-4b60-84f3-9b2e77bc1c60">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : The thing is though, we don't know that it wouldn't have continued. I have a cliquey group of kids in my class that are horrible bullies to a wicked smart gifted child in my glass. The clique has been seperated. They're not allowed to play together on the playground. They can't sit together at lunch. They've been punished in every way I can think of to punish them. The school knows. The parents know (boys will be boys!), and they still won't stop. He was crying yesterday because I slipped up and let one of them get a drink of water while the gifted student went to the bathroom, and the boy called him a gay slur. Punishments don't always work. Sometimes, kids just honestly don't' care anymore what happens to them.<span style="font-weight:bold;"> </span>I know the students in question weren't punished, but <span style="font-weight:bold;">I just wanted to point out that even punishing them may not have helped.</span>
Posted by mwhitson14[/QUOTE]

It's true it might not have helped - if it was bad/deep enough, like in the case you just pointed out, it probably wouldn't have.  But at least they could say they tried.  Which, in the main case at hand, they can't.  And that's more horrible and depressing than I care to think about.

cac847

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:bda36467-932e-4a4e-aeae-355331b734a6">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]  The one girl who tormented me the most?  Wrote me a card in the hospital that said, "I'm sorry you're too retarded to actually finish it properly.  Get well soon!  When my mom called her mom about it, <strong>her mom saw no problem with it</strong>.
Posted by sweetpea0911[/QUOTE]

This is a HUGE part of the problem. Too many parents have the "my kid can do no wrong" attitude and rationalize their disgusting behavior. If the school had disciplined these kids, their parents probably would have raised hell that the school had the gall to discipline their little angels. There's enough blame to go around for all parties involved... it wasn't just the kids or just the lack of intervention by the parents or just the lack of disciple by the school, it was a combination of all of these that led to this girl committing suicide. Sadly enough I think it's a reflection on the way society is now, and stuff like this is just going to keep happening in the future.

mwhitson14

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:784c0067-8661-4376-ac87-23cf675dffe4">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : It's true it might not have helped - if it was bad/deep enough, like in the case you just pointed out, it probably wouldn't have.  But at least they could say they tried.  Which, in the main case at hand, they can't.  And that's more horrible and depressing than I care to think about.
Posted by sweetpea0911[/QUOTE]

Oh I completely agree, and the point of my post wasn't to say that they shouldn't have even tried. I just think it's too easy to say, oh if they'd been punished, this would've been nipped in the bud!

BecW2be

Punishment would have done more than outright ignorance of the bullying, obviously. Keep punishing for bad behavior, and eventually the consequences are worth more than the action, and kids stop. Not addressing and handling the situation only encourages and worsens the behavior. If you hadn't separated the kids and taken action against their bullying, it would be worse right now. Consistent regulation and action against wrong behavior will decrease and stop the behavior much quicker than letting it continue and pretending it's not going on.

sweetpea0911

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_this-whole-story-sad?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:f05bb589-01dd-4511-a52e-d122500ede1aPost:98cf9b37-0985-4e89-9ada-0e0bec6c6715">Re: This whole story is sad</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This whole story is sad : Oh I completely agree, and the point of my post wasn't to say that they shouldn't have even tried. I just think it's too easy to say, oh if they'd been punished, this would've been nipped in the bud!
Posted by mwhitson14[/QUOTE]

Oh, I hear you, and I agree.  I think just looking at my own history and knowing how I'd feel if I was that girl's parents, I'd rather hear "We tried" than "Uh...oops?"

It's just such a sad situation and knowing that there's nothing you can do to fix it now BUT charge these kids, who as silly as is sounds, are still KIDS....it's heartbreaking.