To walk or not to walk

MrsMack10612

I just saw a post in my FB feed about a rally/protest for a HS senior who is being told she cannot graduate because she failed her math class.  According to the FB page, she was shy 6 points for a passing grade and the teacher was uncooperative when the student asked for extra help.  Other than that, there doesn't seem to be a lot of detail.  The school seems to be standing it's ground.

Apparently because "she's a good kid" and has dreamed of this day for 12 years, she should be allowed to walk with her class and get a blank diploma.

I say no way - she failed, she doesn't graduate or walk. 

What say the Knotties?

misssunshine17

You don't pass, you don't walk. Is it unfortunate? Absolutely. But 'being a good kid' doesn't have anything to do with passing the needed criteria. 

AprilH81

It is unfortunate, but she had a whole school year to establish (and improve) her grade.  If the teacher wouldn't help then there are other options.  There are tutors, study groups, online tutorials, and many other options available to her.

MrsMack10612

Glad to hear someone else feels that way, I was afraid I was just being a bitch.

Again, the FB page didn't have a lot of detail but they are planning to go to the school to protest, call the news, leaving longwinded messages for the principal.  It just seems over the top to me.

 

RebeccaB88

The only thing I'd give her is looking into her request for extra help and if it was really denied.  But, where were the parents?  Could they not help, or find a tutor?  

manateehugger

Nope. She should be held at the same standards as every other kid. Didn't pass, didn't graduate= doesn't get to walk. That's life. 

Forcing teachers to make exceptions to pass students detracts from the integrity of academia. 

It would be like petitioning a college to give some kid who didn't meet their admission criteria a fake congratulations letter. 

MrsMack10612

I almost didn't graduate.  I worked my buns off in my Anatomy & Physiology classes and barely scraped by.  I was one point away from failing, my teacher took pity on my because it was one point and bumped it so I would graduate.

I know that's not the right approach (giving grades you don't earn), but if I had failed and not graduated/walked with my class, it would have been my own damn fault and I would have gone to summer school.

MairePoppy

If she didn't fulfill the graduation requirements, then she shouldn't participate. What's the point of walking to receive a diploma that isn't a diploma? I don't understand why she is challenging this. 

manateehugger

kjhowd said: I almost didn't graduate.  I worked my buns off in my Anatomy & Physiology classes and barely scraped by.  I was one point away from failing, my teacher took pity on my because it was one point and bumped it so I would graduate. I know that's not the right approach (giving grades you don't earn), but if I had failed and not graduated/walked with my class, it would have been my own damn fault and I would have gone to summer school.


I didn't mean my earlier statement as harsh as it sounded. I've had a professor help me out before by giving me project deadline extensions. I was referring more to when teachers are pressured to pass students by outsiders. 

MrsMack10612

@lingerlonger1 - Apparently the student and teacher weren't a good fit. eyeroll

The handful of posts really make it sound like it's the teacher's fault.

The mom said in one post (paraphrased) "she wouldn't work with her or give her extra credit, then conveniently went on medical leave".

 

 

s-aries8990

So because kids are "good" they should be in the national honor society? Get into elite, selective schools? Be given merit based scholarships? They may have gotten an F, but they're a good kid!


Does it suck, absolutely. Do I feel empathy for her? Yes. Should she walk? If it's the school's policy to not let her, she shouldn't be able to. If the school requires full matriculation to walk, then she shouldn't be able to walk. I'm sure she's not the only case and shouldn't be given special treatment just because there's a facebook campaign for it.

I would also hold a small investigation into her request for help. Did she only ask he teacher? Did she seek out the guidance counselor? Other teachers? Methinks not.

manateehugger

Oh jeeze. Right, because teachers shouldn't be humans (how dare they have medical problems?!) and should accommodate every special snowflake that comes along. 

wittykitty14

Expanding on the topic...

It really bothers me that in college (at least mine), people are allowed to walk across the stage even if they haven't finished their degree requirements yet.  It REALLY bothers me.  This is what most of the people at my college did.  For whatever reason, they still had summer courses to take, or even ones in the fall, and they were still allowed to walk.  I don't get it. 

I guess I just sort of felt like I had completed everything I needed to, as if I "earned" the right to walk on stage in the robe.  Then there were others who walked just because they could, but they weren't actually done yet.  I wouldn't want to walk if I wasn't done.  That was my "AHHH!!  I DID IT!" Moment.

And on the original topic-I hate the sense of entitlement people have these days.  No, you didn't pass, so you haven't earned the priveledge of walking.  Don't blame teachers for your last minute wake up call.

MrsMack10612

@PDKH - I didn't take it that way at all. 

I know I was lucky.  My teacher could have let me fail/not graduate.

I also was kept back in 6th grade (it was the year my parents divorced and I was a wreck).  I didn't do the work, I mouthed off to my teachers and I missed a shitton of school.  I was devastated that I had to repeat, but knew it was my own damn fault.  I damn well learned that I perform or I don't get the "trophy".

s-aries8990

kjhowd said:

@lingerlonger1 - Apparently the student and teacher weren't a good fit. eyeroll

The handful of posts really make it sound like it's the teacher's fault.

The mom said in one post (paraphrased) "she wouldn't work with her or give her extra credit, then conveniently went on medical leave".

 

 

Why didn't the student's mom step up and find her a tutor? Reach out to the teacher herself? The department head? The guidance office? The principal's office?

If she went on medical leave mid-year, why didn't the student ask the substitute for help? For extra credit? (And I'm sure as HELL the leave wasn't "convenient" for the teacher - only for the people who are making her a scapegoat.)

IDK, but if I saw my kid failing, I'd contact whomever necessary to get her extra help.

runpipparun

No pass, no walk.

This is such an epidemic in education. I remember chatting with my chemistry teacher near the end of my junior year, when the principal came in and asked me to step out for a few minutes. When I was allowed back in, my teacher was so pissed off. The principal had ordered him to "find a way" to pass a senior who was failing, badly, so the school could graduate her and wouldn't have to keep her around. She had been truant and had failed to turn in homework all year. Her total percentage was a 43% or something. Un-friggin'-believable.

MrsMack10612

@Lingerlonger1 - I completely agree with you.  The FB page is called "Let ____ Walk with her class lets rally for her"

I'm 100% sure it was started by her mother and I take it all with huge grains of salt.

wittykitty14

In high school, one of my former "friends" was mad that she didn't qualifiy for National Honors Society.  Her average was 89.2 or something like that.  You need a 90 or higher to qualify.  She made such a huge fuss about the whole thing, and they agreed to let her in.  I was so mad that they let her get away with that.  Politics.  Oh, and did I mention that my average then was a 89.8?  I didn't mention it because I knew I didn't deserve to be in NHS.  I guess I should have...

manateehugger

I totally agree that every student is different. It concerns me to see the education trend in high school where every class has a written assignment component, even math or science courses. And I say that as a former English and History major.

I would have been screwed in high school if I had to do calculus in every course. My brain just isn't wired that way. 

But the thing is, if we can reasonably assume that every student is held to the same standard as her peers (and the thousands of students that graduated before her), she fairly failed. There's no exceptions there. There should not be merit points in a pass/fail class. 

MrsMack10612

Linger - I had a similar teacher.  My junior year chem teacher. Was super nice guy.  Not such a good teacher.  I failed chem miserably (which is why I ended up on the anatomy course mentioned above).

Yes there are bad teachers out there, and some that have teaching styles that don't work for all kids; but (and I forget which PP said it) your education is your responsibility, take charge and get the help you need.

I failed Alg 1 my freshman year (I'm really not an idiot ;-), math & science not my strong suits), sophomore year, I had the exact same teacher and I passed with a C.

runpipparun

HoorayForSoup said:

The only thing I disagree with the PPs on is the assumption that it was somehow her fault that she didn't pass. I agree that if she had applied herself harder or found a tutor it's possible that she would have passed, but it's also possible that she either isn't smart or is especially bad at whatever subject she failed. In our society we tend to assume that failure is the result of character or actions, sometimes it's just that people don't have  it in them. 

Either way if you don't pass the required classes you shouldn't be allowed to walk. 

Consider this possibility as well: this young lady has been failed and shuffled along BEFORE now, causing her to get this far behind. I was hired to tutor a failing young lady in geometry. When I began working with her, it came to my attention that not only was she subpar in geometry, she was also subpar in the following: Addition. Subtraction. Multiplication. Fractions. Basic algebra. Couldn't solve an equation, or even set one up. Didn't know what a formula was. She didn't even need to BE in geometry. She needed to be back in junior high math again. She had no foundation for the class she was failing. I couldn't figure out how she'd passed algebra.

s-aries8990

HoorayForSoup said:

The only thing I disagree with the PPs on is the assumption that it was somehow her fault that she didn't pass. I agree that if she had applied herself harder or found a tutor it's possible that she would have passed, but it's also possible that she either isn't smart or is especially bad at whatever subject she failed. In our society we tend to assume that failure is the result of character or actions, sometimes it's just that people don't have  it in them. 

Either way if you don't pass the required classes you shouldn't be allowed to walk. 

My question is, though, if a student has trouble with a particular subject, don't teachers normally put that student in the level they can cope with?

Or if she's always had trouble with the subject, why hasn't she sought out a tutor before? Had a sibling help? Or a friend? IDK, it just seems kind of fishy.

MrsMack10612

Per @Runpipparun & @Hoorayforsoup comments, per the FB page, she was generally and A, B student, so I'm not sure your arguments apply, though completely valid.  Far too often kids are just pushed through the system for one reason or another. 

I work in an education industry and it's amazing how the curriculum and ways of teaching are changing so much from when I was in school. 

s-aries8990

LingerLonger1 said:

runpipparun said:

HoorayForSoup said:

The only thing I disagree with the PPs on is the assumption that it was somehow her fault that she didn't pass. I agree that if she had applied herself harder or found a tutor it's possible that she would have passed, but it's also possible that she either isn't smart or is especially bad at whatever subject she failed. In our society we tend to assume that failure is the result of character or actions, sometimes it's just that people don't have  it in them. 

Either way if you don't pass the required classes you shouldn't be allowed to walk. 

Consider this possibility as well: this young lady has been failed and shuffled along BEFORE now, causing her to get this far behind. I was hired to tutor a failing young lady in geometry. When I began working with her, it came to my attention that not only was she subpar in geometry, she was also subpar in the following: Addition. Subtraction. Multiplication. Fractions. Basic algebra. Couldn't solve an equation, or even set one up. Didn't know what a formula was. She didn't even need to BE in geometry. She needed to be back in junior high math again. She had no foundation for the class she was failing. I couldn't figure out how she'd passed algebra.

No Child Left Behind- Quite possibly the biggest educational blunder our government has ever made.

Definitely. My brother is highly-functioning autistic. The teachers wanted to just "pass" him in high school so he'd finish with my peers. My mother was furious, especially because she knew my brother was trying, but not his hardest. She didn't want teachers to fluff up his grade - if he needed to stay back he would; when my she told my brother that, he got his act together and graduated (barely, but did so nonetheless) with his peers. He DID have an IEP and a slew of para-professionals that worked with him, but if that's what a kid needs, so be it!

runpipparun

kjhowd said:

Per @Runpipparun & @Hoorayforsoup comments, per the FB page, she was generally and A, B student, so I'm not sure your arguments apply, though completely valid.  Far too often kids are just pushed through the system for one reason or another. 

I work in an education industry and it's amazing how the curriculum and ways of teaching are changing so much from when I was in school. 

It doesn't matter, if that young lady failed math prior, or if her grades were really poor prior (teachers were giving her "unearned" but poor passing grades in math), then she should have been repeating math, not moving up to the next level. In my experience, the girl I tutored was receiving passing grades she did not earn, i.e. she was being passed along in math when she clearly did not understand or grasp the material she was receiving passing grades for. THAT is my point.

ETA: She was a world championship texter though. I wanted to throw her dang phone through a window.

s-aries8990

LingerLonger1 said:

sydaries said:

HoorayForSoup said:

The only thing I disagree with the PPs on is the assumption that it was somehow her fault that she didn't pass. I agree that if she had applied herself harder or found a tutor it's possible that she would have passed, but it's also possible that she either isn't smart or is especially bad at whatever subject she failed. In our society we tend to assume that failure is the result of character or actions, sometimes it's just that people don't have  it in them. 

Either way if you don't pass the required classes you shouldn't be allowed to walk. 

My question is, though, if a student has trouble with a particular subject, don't teachers normally put that student in the level they can cope with?

Or if she's always had trouble with the subject, why hasn't she sought out a tutor before? Had a sibling help? Or a friend? IDK, it just seems kind of fishy.

It's very possible she just CAN'T grasp whatever specific subject this is.  But in that case, every school I've ever heard of will find some sort of alternate curriculum.  You still get "math" credits but maybe you get business math credits instead of calculus.  You just have to be proactive.

That's exactly kind of the point I was trying to make with the bolded, but didn't do so clearly enough.

MrsMack10612

@runpipparun - and I'm not disagreeing with you as I said, many students do get pushed along through the system without having the basics.; I'm just passing along what I know from the FB page.

I also agree that NCLB was a huge mistake.

runpipparun

HoorayForSoup said:

I believe in personal responsibility as well, all I'm saying is that her failing could just as easily be the result of her intelligence as her effort. 

Although given the reaction to her not being allowed to walk, I'm actually willing to bet that in this case you're probably right and it was the result of her not trying hard enough.

What I was getting at is that in this country we tend to assume that failure is the result of some sort of character flaw. People always attribute failure to something like the student being lazy and not trying hard enough or the parents not getting their child help when they should have. My point is that some people are just not that smart or are horrible at a certain subject. Sometimes failure is the result of lacking an innate capacity, not a lack of effort. 

 I think we like to believe in this country that we are all created equal and have the same opportunities. That nobody is born innately smarter than anyone else.

On the other hand, my brother is getting his PhD and I will only have an MSW, so I choose to believe I was born dumber, not that my lack of PhD is a result of my lack of effort.

s-aries8990

kjhowd said:

@runpipparun - and I'm not disagreeing with you as I said, many students do get pushed along through the system without having the basics.; I'm just passing along what I know from the FB page.

I also agree that NCLB was a huge mistake.

When I was a tutor during college, I freaked out a few times (in private WTF!!!!! moments) because students couldn't effing write coherent sentences and then complained when their teachers game them real homework assignments (like 2 pagers). I went to college in New Haven which has a large inner-city population, and we also had a large group of students from inner-city NYC schools. We couldn't focus on answering the questions because their subject-verb agreement was non-existent, their sentences didn't qualify as standalone phrases, and their organization was terrible.

What sucked was that a good handful of these students were smart and had a pretty good sense of abstract thought and drawing conclusions, but their lack of writing skills (and reading skills in some cases) were bringing these kids from solid A-B level work (based on their concepts) to C's, D's, and F's. I feel like these students were pushed through just to help curb the student population. IDK, the whole idea gets me all heated.

s-aries8990

HoorayForSoup said:

I completely agree. If you're failing a class at 13 that's something your parents should get involved in, if you're failing a class at 17 or 18 that's on you. 

LingerLonger1 said:

 Sure some people aren't, and I agree we jump to character flaws too quickly overall.  However, the numerous context clues in this thread tell me that's not the case here.  This girl actually is lazy and just couldn't be bothered to pass her class, and maybe her parents were lazy too, but I have a serious problem with that accusation.  She's about to graduate and it sounds like it was a class she took this year that she failed.  That means she's 17 - 19 at the time she took this class, which makes her, for all intents and purposes, an adult.  It's not their job to make sure she passes (I'm sure that will get me flamed).

I concur y'all.

runpipparun

LingerLonger1 said:

 Sure some people aren't, and I agree we jump to character flaws too quickly overall.  However, the numerous context clues in this thread tell me that's not the case here.  This girl actually is lazy and just couldn't be bothered to pass her class, and maybe her parents were lazy too, but I have a serious problem with that accusation.  She's about to graduate and it sounds like it was a class she took this year that she failed.  That means she's 17 - 19 at the time she took this class, which makes her, for all intents and purposes, an adult.  It's not their job to make sure she passes (I'm sure that will get me flamed).

That's funny. I've got a friend who works in college administration who informs me that he spends half his day on the phone with parents of freshman asking about their children's schedules and whether their children are passing their classes. We are infantilizing our collegiate youth. I can't imagine these young adults will ever be personally responsible. I'm glad I went to a university that protected my privacy and told parents to eff off.