• Images
  • Text
  • Find a Couple + Registry
GO
Catholic Weddings

NFP ..not for me

2

Re: NFP ..not for me

  • There are other ways to receive estrogen besides the birth control pill.  People have been regulating their hormones for centuries.  And still are, even where birth control isn't available.

    Sometimes it's just *easier* to give the pill though, especially if the person isn't interested in or capable of having children.

    If you told your doctor you wanted to take estrogen but also conceive a child (I'm not saying you are, just a hypothetical), then he would have a different solution.

    SaveSave
  • edited June 2013
    Riss91 said:
    Do you mean like a woman who has had a hysterectomy or some other procedure that results in a woman not being able to conceive a child?

    or

    A woman that could conceive a child, however it might be dangerous for her to carry/give birth to the child?

    A woman who was simply born without the ability to have children. I'm thinking of many folks who have the same condition I have...again, the issue is that our body simply doens't make estrogen because of a genetic "mistake," so many of us are literally never able to produce eggs ever, even with medical intervention. I ask because the primary objection to bc is obviously that it might kill a life that has already concieved, but does that argument still apply when there is 0% chance of that happening?

    ETA: Hopefully this question isn't TMI or overly convoluted, but I'm just curious on a theoretical level now.

    image
  • monkeysip said:
    There are other ways to receive estrogen besides the birth control pill.  People have been regulating their hormones for centuries.  And still are, even where birth control isn't available.

    Sometimes it's just *easier* to give the pill though, especially if the person isn't interested in or capable of having children.

    If you told your doctor you wanted to take estrogen but also conceive a child (I'm not saying you are, just a hypothetical), then he would have a different solution.
    Good point! Thanks for this perspective.
    image
  • PLEASE seek out a NAPRO doctor. Please. 
    [Deleted User]
  • Riss91Riss91 member
    Eighth Anniversary 1000 Comments 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    Well, from a Catholic perspective, it isn't just about killing a life - it's about being open to life. Basically, the sexual act is expected to be procreative - so the couple shouldn't artificially alter their bodies (through medication or through other barrier methods) to prevent conception. In order for the marital act to be full, it needs to have both the unitive and procreative nature to it. That being said, the Church wouldn't prevent a couple from being married if they had fertility problems, or if the woman had a hysterectomy. We believe that God is part of all creation, so whether it seems medically impossible to conceive or not, we shouldn't intentionally and artificially prevent conception. You never know what God has planned!

    So, even someone that has a medical condition that would limit fertility, wouldn't get a "free pass" to use birth control. But, using a birth control pill bc it is treating a condition that cannot be treated otherwise is a separate issue.
  • Fair enough. Sorry ladies, thanks for answering my dumb questions. Hopefully it wasn't too much.
    image
  • Not a dumb question.  You're more than welcome to ask things like that here.

    SaveSave
    [Deleted User]
  • For what it is worth, I think what you guys are doing with NFP is amazing in terms of really living out your faith as far as family planning goes. Even if it is something I would never consider myself, I can respect the fact that you all are willing to, "walk the walk" to that level.
    image
    Jasmine&RajahAnastasia517
  • For what it is worth, I think what you guys are doing with NFP is amazing in terms of really living out your faith as far as family planning goes. Even if it is something I would never consider myself, I can respect the fact that you all are willing to, "walk the walk" to that level.

    ETA: I would also judge any doctor who didn't respect the deep faith you all have, and didn't provide culturally-relevent treatment options to you that were respectful of the values you hold.

    image
    [Deleted User]
  • For what it is worth, I think what you guys are doing with NFP is amazing in terms of really living out your faith as far as family planning goes. Even if it is something I would never consider myself, I can respect the fact that you all are willing to, "walk the walk" to that level.

    Thank you very, very much for saying this. 

    Please don't hesitate to ask any other questions on the faith that you might have.  I don't mean for this to come across as condescending, but I hope you had all the "accurate answers" before you left the Church (there is so much misinformation out there, sadly.)  The ladies here are so knowledgeable and kind; I can personally attest to what a blessing they've been.  :-)

    Have a beautiful wedding day!
  • chelseamb11chelseamb11 member
    2500 Comments Third Anniversary 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited June 2013
    I absolutely adore it when people come in asking legitimate questions and don't freak out at the answers lol.

    One thing with science, is nothing is ever 100% (which is why I hate the "you should abort your baby because he/she will have XYZ condition and suffer and die immediately argument).  My SIL and the conception of her baby is a prime example.  She suffered an ectopic pregnancy last May and lost her fallopian tube.  So by all medical standards, would never be able to conceive a baby from her right ovary because there was no tube for it to go in.  However, imagine everyone's shock and surprise when they discovered via ultrasound that the baby she conceived (and is due with 4 days before me..yay!) came from her right ovary!  The human body will always be too complicated for 100% science IMO.  God can always divinely intervene.

    I can see the benefits of you needing the estrogen in your situation (hence why your reasoning for taking it is not against the teachings of the Church), but I agree with Agape..definitely go see a NAPRO doctor.  They work on a completely different level and I know people personally who have had YEARS of health issues resolved by going to a NAPRO doc.  Can't hurt ,right?



    ETA: Congrats on your wedding! I hope you have a wonderful day!

  • chelseamb11chelseamb11 member
    2500 Comments Third Anniversary 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited June 2013
    I absolutely adore it when people come in asking legitimate questions and don't freak out at the answers lol.

    One thing with science, is nothing is ever 100% (which is why I hate the "you should abort your baby because he/she will have XYZ condition and suffer and die immediately argument).  My SIL and the conception of her baby is a prime example.  She suffered an ectopic pregnancy last May and lost her fallopian tube.  So by all medical standards, would never be able to conceive a baby from her right ovary because there was no tube for it to go in.  However, imagine everyone's shock and surprise when they discovered via ultrasound that the baby she conceived (and is due with 4 days before me..yay!) came from her right ovary!  The human body will always be too complicated for 100% science IMO.  God can always divinely intervene.

    I can see the benefits of you needing the estrogen in your situation (hence why your reasoning for taking it is not against the teachings of the Church), but I agree with Agape..definitely go see a NAPRO doctor.  They work on a completely different level and I know people personally who have had YEARS of health issues resolved by going to a NAPRO doc.  Can't hurt ,right?


    ETA: Congrats on your wedding! I hope you have a wonderful day!

    ETA:


  • I absolutely adore it when people come in asking legitimate questions and don't freak out at the answers lol.

    One thing with science, is nothing is ever 100% (which is why I hate the "you should abort your baby because he/she will have XYZ condition and suffer and die immediately argument).  My SIL and the conception of her baby is a prime example.  She suffered an ectopic pregnancy last May and lost her fallopian tube.  So by all medical standards, would never be able to conceive a baby from her right ovary because there was no tube for it to go in.  However, imagine everyone's shock and surprise when they discovered via ultrasound that the baby she conceived (and is due with 4 days before me..yay!) came from her right ovary!  The human body will always be too complicated for 100% science IMO.  God can always divinely intervene.

    I can see the benefits of you needing the estrogen in your situation (hence why your reasoning for taking it is not against the teachings of the Church), but I agree with Agape..definitely go see a NAPRO doctor.  They work on a completely different level and I know people personally who have had YEARS of health issues resolved by going to a NAPRO doc.  Can't hurt ,right?


    ETA: Congrats on your wedding! I hope you have a wonderful day!

    ETA:


    Thanks for the kind words. It doesn't freak me out, lol. Why ask a question when you don't want to know the honest answer? I also have a great grounding in what you ladies believe, (it was what I grew up with), so that helps too.

    I totally agree that science, or anything for that matter, is never 100%. If my medical history has taught me anything, it is that. At one time I worried that I would be seriously handicapped in many aspects in life, but find that I am expriencing none of that now.

    Thanks for the well wishes on our wedding! 3 days! So excited. Just hoping everything goes well. :)

    image
  • edited June 2013

    For what it is worth, I think what you guys are doing with NFP is amazing in terms of really living out your faith as far as family planning goes. Even if it is something I would never consider myself, I can respect the fact that you all are willing to, "walk the walk" to that level.

    Thank you very, very much for saying this. 

    Please don't hesitate to ask any other questions on the faith that you might have.  I don't mean for this to come across as condescending, but I hope you had all the "accurate answers" before you left the Church (there is so much misinformation out there, sadly.)  The ladies here are so knowledgeable and kind; I can personally attest to what a blessing they've been.  :-)

    Have a beautiful wedding day!
    Thanks for the kind words! 3 days! Yay! Lol. Hope I didn't forget anything. I do know there is a lot of misinformation out there. Fortunately that wasn't what happened in my case. I just found that my personal/political beliefs better aligned with some of the protestant denominations. I do miss the sacraments sometimes though. Catholoic ceremonies/sacraments are so beautiful.
    image
  • How does the concept of sex as an image of the trinity apply to all that occurred before Christ came to earth?


  • God has always been and always will be trinity. In Genesis, you see Him say "let US make man in OUR image". 
    [Deleted User]
  • @ prof - love the new siggy pic!
    image
    Anniversary
    Lilypie First Birthday tickers
  • Carrie - While I would encourage our new friend to seek out a NaPro doc, as a physician I can back up that what she is describing is truly one of the very rare cases that combined hormone birth control pills is provably the best option. She always will need estrogen supplementation. Always. Her body will not function without it. Unopposed estrogen causes cancer, with a higher incidence than birth control pills. So she needs a form of progesterone with it, just like is present in birth control pills. All the other forms of estrogen are only to be used until a woman reaches puberty. At that point, she is to be switched to combo therapy to reduce the incidence of cancer, heart attack and stroke. Even women on hormonal replacement therapy after menopause should not get solely estrogen.
    rajahmd
  • bloverde said:
    Carrie - While I would encourage our new friend to seek out a NaPro doc, as a physician I can back up that what she is describing is truly one of the very rare cases that combined hormone birth control pills is provably the best option. She always will need estrogen supplementation. Always. Her body will not function without it. Unopposed estrogen causes cancer, with a higher incidence than birth control pills. So she needs a form of progesterone with it, just like is present in birth control pills. All the other forms of estrogen are only to be used until a woman reaches puberty. At that point, she is to be switched to combo therapy to reduce the incidence of cancer, heart attack and stroke. Even women on hormonal replacement therapy after menopause should not get solely estrogen.
    Good to know! I *think* this is probably why my docs never really talked with me about any non birth-control related options. I'll admit I don't really know though. I should ask next time I see them. Not that I ever had any issues with taking bc in my particular situation anyway. I was about 10 when the whole thing started so I didn't really understand what it was I was actually taking until later on. I was just happy it wasn't going to be a shot at that point - and happy that what I ended up having wasn't as serious as some of the other options they had been testing for. As a kid I had a bunch of really random symptoms, but I also had a really good peditrician who recognized something was off about me and was persistant about making sure we saw the right specialists. It is largely due to her that I have the very normal life that I have now.
    image
  • Can I threadjack for a second too?  I'm a baptized catholic, and had my first communion. Our boys are (or will be) baptized Catholic as well. However, I consider myself to be more Episcopalian. FH is Catholic but doesn't practice the faith. So there's my background!

    I found out about charting through "Taking Charge of Your Fertility" (excellent book BTW) and soon learned the horrors of hormonal contraception. After our first son was born (used FAM to conceive him) I had the Mirena inserted. I do believe I may have lost a baby (chemical pregnancy) during that year, and who knows what else. I had it removed when I started having weird symptoms and went back to charting and using condoms. Ditched the condoms when TTC #2 and after a long road and 1 loss, he's here and almost a year old! Between our oldest's 1st birthday and around TTC #2 we discovered I have cycle related IBS and anxiety. It was through charting that I found out it was due to shifting hormones that I had these "attacks". These attacks were debilitating- intense nausea, fatique, dizziness, couldn't eat, weak, you name it.

    I really wanted to go back to charting and avoid hormones after #2 but due to the severity of my IBS and Anxiety my RE suggested hormones to keep my hormones steady. I can't take most other IBS meds due to another medication I take and I don't need pain meds because fortunately stomach pain is the one symptom I don't have. I'm currently on the mini pill, progesterone only. Do we want more kids? Most likely no, not anytime soon at least. With my health I just can't handle more and financially it wouldn't be wise either. But at the same time I'm struggling with the moral repercussions of this.

    This was probably pretty jumbled. Not sure what I'm looking for but you ladies seem so awesome on this and other topics about God and faith. I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place and I just hope God will forgive me.

    Thanks for letting me vent and ramble!

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

  • As others said earlier, there are other ways to manage your hormones without contraception!  You really need to talk to a Napro doctor or anyone else who is willing to manage your hormones another way.  

    It is a difficult situation, and as said earlier, if hormonal contraceptives are TRULY needed to treat another disorder, then it is morally acceptable.  But it's just really shameful how most doctors don't seem to want to figure out another way.  

    SaveSave
    [Deleted User]
  • edited July 2013
    monkeysip said:
    As others said earlier, there are other ways to manage your hormones without contraception!  You really need to talk to a Napro doctor or anyone else who is willing to manage your hormones another way.  

    It is a difficult situation, and as said earlier, if hormonal contraceptives are TRULY needed to treat another disorder, then it is morally acceptable.  But it's just really shameful how most doctors don't seem to want to figure out another way.  


    Thanks! Love your new picture!

    Is it okay to use NFP to avoid pregnancies and/or to not want more children? I've always been told that NFP is only to be used to prevent pregnancies once in a great while- like during illness, a huge financial strain, etc. Using it just because you don't want a child at that time wasn't a good enough reason. That's one of the things that turned me off about Catholicism. I totally get being open to life but to basically have to be okay with getting pregnant at anytime was a little much. I'm totally okay with "well, if it were to happen even though we abstained or maybe DTD a little too close to ovulation that's fine & I'd embrace said child but I'd prefer it not to" and that's what it sounds like you guys talk about. I'm very interested in learning more about Catholicism and seeing if what I've been told is true. Maybe I have walked away for the wrong reasons but I won't know without asking questions I suppose. Its a struggle that's for sure.

     

    ETA: Regarding doctors not trying- when I learned about the Mirena and what it could do I went to my gyn to have it removed immediately. She was somewhat hesitant and when I asked her to explain how it worked she tiptoed around the abortion/miscarriage issue. Once I came right out and said "So, if I were to get pregnant the Mirena could potentially abort it. Right?" She wasn't too happy but at that point she admitted it and I got it out. If I had been told ALL the facts prior to insertion I wouldn't have put it in or at least thought about it more.

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

  • Most people leave Catholicism without knowing what it actually teaches. Regarding children and NFP, there are several documents that address it, and there are different words used, such as just/serious/grave reason. This is a hot point of discussion among many theologians and scholars on which word is best, and what the word means. 

    We have to remember our culture and the way our perception has been formed by it. The idea of accepting children lovingly all the time is hated. Children are seen as a burden and property, and a product, NOT a blessing. THey are not seen as the way that God chooses to enter this world.. he could have given us the power to create a tree or a mountain, but he actually gave us the power to take part in creating more human lives, the most like God that is possible. So, replacing your words here "I think having to be open to taking part in the creation of human beings and becoming like God all the time is a little much". 

    There is a difference in perspective, and artificial birth control has destroyed that connection in minds of human dignity. 

    The church does not make definitive exclusive list of what justifies delaying or avoiding pregnancy for a couple. NFP is a really good BS filter for a couple.. If they decide to avoid children for a time, and they are at a fertile time, and then want to come together, if that reason to avoid is serious enough to avoid, then its likely they will make the sacrifice and wait. 

    If an upcoming move is planned, and one doesn't want to be 8 months pregnant when moving, that might not be a "grave" reason to avoid a pregnancy, but certainly an understandable one that's only a short delay. 


  • CrazyCatLady3CrazyCatLady3 member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Second Anniversary First Answer
    edited July 2013

    How does continuing to accept children fit into the idea of being a steward of the earth?  I am thinking about overpopulation.  The planet's resources are already taxed; imagine how it would be if all couples just continued to have children instead of stopping at 1 or 2 or 3?  I find it hard to feel guilty about possibly not wanting children when the mankind is not suffering any underpopulation problem and there are tens of millions of orphaned/unadopted children in the world.  Thoughts?

    (edited: typos)

  • Actually, Crazycat, the catechism even mentions the issue of overpopulation as a POSSIBLE reason to limit family size.  The thing is, overpopulation is crazy exaggerated right now. The problem is NOT one of too many people, it is a problem of resources being distributed in an unjust manner.  There's plenty of land, but corruption has created poverty, not overpopulation.

    HOWEVER, if it were a clear fact that an area was overpopulated, then yes, NFP could be used to reduce your family size for this reason as long as it's not coerced.  Like in China, NFP is taught to a lot of families and the Billings method (a type of NFP) is actually ENDORSED by the chinese government as an acceptable form of birth control.  So it is acceptable to limit your family size for that reason.  

    It also may be acceptable to limit your family size to adopt as well.  As long as the couple is still open to receiving more children if it happens, if the couple truly feels called to adopt, then they could use NFP to limit their biological family size.

    But this is why the Church doesn't necessarily spell out what are acceptable and not-acceptable reasons.  Couples need to discern their own reasons to see if it's a selfish reason, or if they are justified.  It's also good for couples to work with a spiritual director, like a priest, to help them discern this issue.

    SaveSave
    Ambybambi1125
  • monkeysip said:
    Actually, Crazycat, the catechism even mentions the issue of overpopulation as a POSSIBLE reason to limit family size.  The thing is, overpopulation is crazy exaggerated right now. The problem is NOT one of too many people, it is a problem of resources being distributed in an unjust manner.  There's plenty of land, but corruption has created poverty, not overpopulation.

    HOWEVER, if it were a clear fact that an area was overpopulated, then yes, NFP could be used to reduce your family size for this reason as long as it's not coerced.  Like in China, NFP is taught to a lot of families and the Billings method (a type of NFP) is actually ENDORSED by the chinese government as an acceptable form of birth control.  So it is acceptable to limit your family size for that reason.  

    It also may be acceptable to limit your family size to adopt as well.  As long as the couple is still open to receiving more children if it happens, if the couple truly feels called to adopt, then they could use NFP to limit their biological family size.

    But this is why the Church doesn't necessarily spell out what are acceptable and not-acceptable reasons.  Couples need to discern their own reasons to see if it's a selfish reason, or if they are justified.  It's also good for couples to work with a spiritual director, like a priest, to help them discern this issue.

    Good info.  Thanks.

  • The world isn't overpopulated. It is actually in dangerously low replacement levels in many areas. Low replacement levels also mean really bad economy, no one to take care of the elderly. 

    http://overpopulationisamyth.com/
  • Also, just remember, God created the world for us to use. (not abuse, but use). Humans are the highest form of creation. We don't bow down to the earth. We should be good stewards with the resources given and not be wasteful, but the earth is here FOR our use. 
    [Deleted User]Ambybambi1125
  • "Overpopulation" is total B.S.
    Read the book "What to expect when no one's expecting." Scary stuff; completely scientifically and statistically backed up.
    Anniversary
    Ambybambi1125
  • awesome discussion guys! Im going to have to pick up some of the books mentioned

    After 6 years and 2 boys, finally tying the knot on October 27th, 2013!

This discussion has been closed.
Choose Another Board
Search Boards