Flags

MuppetFan

Why don't we just eliminate the flagging system? 

Most flags that are awarded are not merited and just create drama.   They collect on a list so that you can delete them someday when the system is figured out.

You punish people for abusing something that has no real function and place value on something that has no weight to bear it. Seems like a good time to think of another solution.

[Deleted User]

@Muppetfan It's definitely being considered as we meet with our developers on fixing our review system.

@xcalygrl Because our system has been partially down, not all of the flagged posts are hitting our review system. That would count for any flags we've missed and need to be notified about. The team has expressed how important it is to have our system working, so I'm hoping it will be fixed soon.

QueerFemme

I think the flagging system (when it is fixed) has value.  During my brief post-new format time as a mod, and when the flagging system was working,it was very helpful to see the flagged post show up in the queue so the mod could take action on the flag.  

I do think flags and loves should be visible, so people can't continue to flag without being accountable to the rest of the community for their flags though.

vegasgroom

Yeah I thought the flagging system was pretty great as a mod until I wasn't anymore.  Every time I logged in there was an alert queue of flagged posts and it made it really easy for any moderator to look at what's in the list and help out if applicable.  If they see the same thing we used to see it's pretty handy when working.

MuppetFan

Would be good if there were mods, and if only mods could see them.

If they mean something, they can be addressed. If not, they can be ignored or addressed as the mod saw fit.

[Deleted User]

How long has this system been down? Does TK have the worst tech support?

 

I still have flags from that one crazy poster on CC.  I'd like them removed, please.

[Deleted User]

LingerLonger1 said:

LMc0322 said:

How long has this system been down? Does TK have the worst tech support?

 

I still have flags from that one crazy poster on CC.  I'd like them removed, please.

At leats since 7 weeks ago.  The first unwarranted flag that still appears on my account is from the beginning of June.

And yes, the Knot sources out their tech to the worst tech company in the world apparently.

I have 2 new flags this morning but I can't see what they are.

Yeah, the "I'll add it to my list" and "We'll tell tech that" just isn't a sufficient response anymore.  It was in the beginning, but not anymore-- not when it's been nearly 2 months of the same response.

MuppetFan

StageManager14 said:

MuppetFan said:

Would be good if there were mods, and if only mods could see them.

If they mean something, they can be addressed. If not, they can be ignored or addressed as the mod saw fit.

Yeah, no.  See, then posters go for YEARS flagging the hell out of certain posters for no good reason and get away with it.  If you're going to flag someone, you need to be held accountable.  And (no offense, KP) that obviously means being held accountable to the community itself, since nothing ever happens unless we point it out.

Since the point system means nothing and the flags physically do nothing without KG interaction, it being a silent process changes nothing but elimination of public drama.

KGs can address and hold those accountable who flagged inappropriately and were flagged appropriately.

[Deleted User]

Hey guys, I totally agree that the wait for tech fixes has been a problem. Our team has been in several meetings these past two weeks trying to breakdown communication and get issues fixed. Right now, I am waiting for the status on our review system and the removal of all flags so we can start fresh when everything is back up and running.

MuppetFan

LingerLonger1 said:

MuppetFan said:

StageManager14 said:

MuppetFan said:

Would be good if there were mods, and if only mods could see them.

If they mean something, they can be addressed. If not, they can be ignored or addressed as the mod saw fit.

Yeah, no.  See, then posters go for YEARS flagging the hell out of certain posters for no good reason and get away with it.  If you're going to flag someone, you need to be held accountable.  And (no offense, KP) that obviously means being held accountable to the community itself, since nothing ever happens unless we point it out.

Since the point system means nothing and the flags physically do nothing without KG interaction, it being a silent process changes nothing but elimination of public drama.

KGs can address and hold those accountable who flagged inappropriately and were flagged appropriately.

If they could, maybe you'd have a point here but it seems they actually cannot. 

<insert argument here> for restoration of Mods to assist in having functioning policing system.

MuppetFan

LingerLonger1 said:

MuppetFan said:

LingerLonger1 said:

MuppetFan said:

StageManager14 said:

MuppetFan said:

Would be good if there were mods, and if only mods could see them.

If they mean something, they can be addressed. If not, they can be ignored or addressed as the mod saw fit.

Yeah, no.  See, then posters go for YEARS flagging the hell out of certain posters for no good reason and get away with it.  If you're going to flag someone, you need to be held accountable.  And (no offense, KP) that obviously means being held accountable to the community itself, since nothing ever happens unless we point it out.

Since the point system means nothing and the flags physically do nothing without KG interaction, it being a silent process changes nothing but elimination of public drama.

KGs can address and hold those accountable who flagged inappropriately and were flagged appropriately.

If they could, maybe you'd have a point here but it seems they actually cannot. 

<insert argument here> for restoration of Mods to assist in having functioning policing system.

We still need some sort of transparency otherwise you end up with mods abusing their powers, and reporting and banning people for no reason.

TGs and Mods could see activity of other mods and there is an audit trail that I believe was permanent as well.

If it is necessary to extend transparency to the community, the flagging screen name needs to be visible as well again. Right now, people make assumptions regarding who is flagging but it really could be anyone.

If someone is uncomfortable with putting their name as flagged for fear of bullying, then they can go through the effort of sending a PM to KP, explaining the violation (as they could and do now in some cases).

Edited for clarity.

MuppetFan

KnotPorscha said:

Hey guys, I totally agree that the wait for tech fixes has been a problem. Our team has been in several meetings these past two weeks trying to breakdown communication and get issues fixed. Right now, I am waiting for the status on our review system and the removal of all flags so we can start fresh when everything is back up and running.

Is the delay still due to the meeting about flagging issues being put off to discuss Kitten AEs?

I don't personally care about flags. But this was the reason we were given 2 months ago for the halt of progress that we had mutually worked to resolve as a community.

QueerFemme

StageManager14 said:

Did mods actually see who reported which posts before the flagging system? ETA; and ditto Linger, that was kind of exactly my point.

We didn't under the old system, but when this new format rolled out, we could absolutely see the name of the flagger.

ETA:  under the old format, we didn't see anyone who "reported" posts for spam or abusive content.   That's why everyone had to page the board mod.

QueerFemme

ETA: again...  we didn't even get notifications of the "reports" on posts.  I think that was just a method for the auto-removes of posts.  When a post had a certain # of "reports", it got removed by the system. But the reports didn't seem to go anywhere. There was no mod queue like there was/is under this format. 

QueerFemme

LingerLonger1 said:

QueerFemme said:

StageManager14 said:

Did mods actually see who reported which posts before the flagging system? ETA; and ditto Linger, that was kind of exactly my point.

We didn't under the old system, but when this new format rolled out, we could absolutely see the name of the flagger.

ETA:  under the old format, we didn't see anyone who "reported" posts for spam or abusive content.   That's why everyone had to page the board mod.

But could you see it even after they stopped being public too?

Yes, after this format rolled out, they showed up in the "mod queue".  The flag would show up for mods to go deal with.  It would show the name of the flagger, the name of the poster who got flagged and a link to the thread.   So, yeah, those of us who were mods could see the abuse of power happening.

MuppetFan

LingerLonger1 said:

MuppetFan said:

LingerLonger1 said:

MuppetFan said:

LingerLonger1 said:

MuppetFan said:

StageManager14 said:

MuppetFan said:

Would be good if there were mods, and if only mods could see them.

If they mean something, they can be addressed. If not, they can be ignored or addressed as the mod saw fit.

Yeah, no.  See, then posters go for YEARS flagging the hell out of certain posters for no good reason and get away with it.  If you're going to flag someone, you need to be held accountable.  And (no offense, KP) that obviously means being held accountable to the community itself, since nothing ever happens unless we point it out.

Since the point system means nothing and the flags physically do nothing without KG interaction, it being a silent process changes nothing but elimination of public drama.

KGs can address and hold those accountable who flagged inappropriately and were flagged appropriately.

If they could, maybe you'd have a point here but it seems they actually cannot. 

<insert argument here> for restoration of Mods to assist in having functioning policing system.

We still need some sort of transparency otherwise you end up with mods abusing their powers, and reporting and banning people for no reason.

TGs and Mods could see activity of other mods and there is an audit trail that I believe was permanent as well.

If it is necessary to extend transparency to the community, the flagging screen name needs to be visible as well again. Right now, people make assumptions regarding who is flagging but it really could be anyone.

If someone is uncomfortable with putting their name as flagged for fear of bullying, then they can go through the effort of sending a PM to KP, explaining the violation (as they could and do now in some cases).

Edited for clarity.

I agree the flags and love its need to be visible to all, as that's the only way to have any sort of transparency, but that's what Stage was saying above and you, Muppet, said only Mods and Gods need access to that information.  I assume we're on the same page now?  That they should be public?

I've always advocated a self-policing community.

My opinion is that if abuse flags are to be visible, they should not be anonymous. If they are to remain anonymous, they should not be visible.

I agree that the system must have accountability and consequences. This could be achieved through TG interference, Mod interference, or Peer Pressure. I suggest a combination of at least 2 of these. All 3 provides additional checks and balances.

I think it's possible that people can be held accountable if it flags are not visible -IF- KGs and Mods are actively policing it. However, this isn't happening right now and I think flag visibility is causing more drama.

TGs have shied away from mods and flag/love it identification I think, to decrease drama but, I actually think it was effective when active. Users are going to jump on the person who was a dumbass with flagging the same way they would in a thread. People learn quickly to adapt to that just as they do to posting in forums and flagging will be reserved for its intended purpose.

MuppetFan

LingerLonger1 said:

QueerFemme said:

StageManager14 said:

Did mods actually see who reported which posts before the flagging system? ETA; and ditto Linger, that was kind of exactly my point.

We didn't under the old system, but when this new format rolled out, we could absolutely see the name of the flagger.

ETA:  under the old format, we didn't see anyone who "reported" posts for spam or abusive content.   That's why everyone had to page the board mod.

But could you see it even after they stopped being public too?

There's also a log too of activity. For example, one MOD was randomly banned. I checked the logs to see what for, and it appeared to be completely accidental by another MOD and her name was listed too. We restored her, contacted the other MOD and she confirmed it was a total accident.

We can also see each others activity.  I found some things that were deleted blatantly inappropriately that I brought to TK attention to address with that MOD.

So there is a lot of transparency on the MOD side that is beneficial.

MuppetFan

dp

cbrown828

I came here to ask why I still have an unwarranted flag from this early June disaster:

http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/comment/6863718/#Comment_6863718

But I see now that there is no point is asking for its removal. I am all for more transparency on these boards.

cbrown828

I stand corrected. My flag is gone. Thanks!

JoanE2012

Mine are gone too.  Yay!

QueerFemme

JoanE2012 said:

Mine are gone too.  Yay!

Holy KnotGods!  They are all gone !  Mine, Lingers, EVERYONES!  it's like Christmas

MuppetFan

LingerLonger1 said:

StageManager14 said:

See, Muppet, my issue is that I cannot understand any value at all in the argument that we should not be able to even see when a complaint is lodged against us.  Yes, I agree that the identity of the flagger should ideally be public, but to say "well, if we cannot see WHO is flagging us, then you need to take away our ability to see that we were flagged at all" makes no logical sense to me.

Exactly.

I understand your view.

My opinion is that it causes more drama than is necessary for something that has no weight if the violation is on the part of the flagger. TGs can deal with that person the same way they would if someone complained to them in a PM to tell them the post doesn't violate TOS.

MuppetFan

StageManager14 said:

Mine are gone for now.  

The question is, is the system actually working correctly now so that @KnotPorscha can see and remove flags as we go?  Or is it like last time, where the tech team wiped them, but didn't actually fix the system so we just ended resetting before accruing a bunch more that couldn't be removed?

I am guessing the latter.

[Deleted User]

Yes! I can see all of the flags immediately in our queue. (finally!)

MuppetFan

KnotPorscha said:

Yes! I can see all of the flags immediately in our queue. (finally!)

I "loved" that. 

MuppetFan

Are previously awarded flags/warnings that were appropriate "forgiven" with this clean swipe?

MayDay513

My flag from when that girl on CC was here are now gone too.

MuppetFan

LingerLonger1 said:

MuppetFan said:

LingerLonger1 said:

StageManager14 said:

See, Muppet, my issue is that I cannot understand any value at all in the argument that we should not be able to even see when a complaint is lodged against us.  Yes, I agree that the identity of the flagger should ideally be public, but to say "well, if we cannot see WHO is flagging us, then you need to take away our ability to see that we were flagged at all" makes no logical sense to me.

Exactly.

I understand your view.

My opinion is that it causes more drama than is necessary for something that has no weight if the violation is on the part of the flagger. TGs can deal with that person the same way they would if someone complained to them in a PM to tell them the post doesn't violate TOS.

You probably haven't experienced it but I can tell you from experience that it's better to know where and when you were flagged than to have a God all of a sudden say "I'm tired or defending your posts to regs when they report you," only to figure out through some fluke months down the road that really it was just some Mod with a stick up her ass the whole time reporting posts that had no business being reported.  Transparency is the best policy here.

I'm thinking it won't last Stage but we'll see.

Good point. I can see how having a million flags against you can look like evidence stacking up. In your case, I think all of them have been determined to be inappropriate. So if the system were to work properly, they would be voided as they appeared and they would not accrue.

I agree with full transparency.