would you?

Calypso1977 · June 2010

Had an interesting discussion with H.

His brother is recently engaged, and there is some question as to whether the wedding will be in a catholic church or not (his brother is catholic, and his fiancee is not). we are hoping they will have it in the church.

H is pretty sure he will be asked to be BM. i may be asked to be in the WP as well, given my relationship with the bride. if asked, i personally feel i should decline to be in the WP if the marriage is not in a catholic church, since the groom is a baptized catholic who attends mass a couple of times per year, and i realize that his marriage will not be recognized by the church. H wants to stand up with his brother, regardless. i told him i would talk to our priest for his thoughts, but H says that even if our priest says he shouldnt he's going to anyway. that's his choice, although i dont support it.

would you be in this WP? i know some super hardcore catholics wouldnt even attend the wedding, but i dont feel i need to take it that far.

Jasmine&Rajah · June 2010

This is a sad situation . . . I'm sorry to hear about it, Calypso. (I presume the groom knows he will be in a state of mortal sin and unable to receive the Eucharist once he is married?)

I would not be able to stand up for the couple as a member of the WP. I agree that out of Christian love, you should go to the wedding, but to participate and appear to be "approving" could be a sin on your head.

Sigh . . . I wish you the best.

Riss91 · June 2010

That's really tough. I'm really interested in what your priest says on this. My younger sister and brother have effectively left the church and I'm 90% certain when they marry, it will not be a Catholic ceremony. I'm most likely going to be in your shoes. Would you be in a wedding party for a non-Catholic ceremony? It's almost the same thing (unless your BIL plans on keeping with the church). Hmmm...I'm torn too

mica178 · June 2010

One of FI's brothers was married in the Catholic Church, got divorced, never underwent the nullification process, and more recently was married civilly to his new wife. My FI did not attend the wedding. He spends time with his brother and SIL and is very happy that they have such a happy relationship, but he did not approve of the way in which the second marriage happened, so he did not want to witness it even.

I hope that your BIL and his fiancee decide to get married in the church (is she religious? are they considering a wedding in her church?). I think PP's suggestion of attending the wedding but not standing up for it is a great compromise.

Theresa626 · June 2010

Of course I'd be in the wedding party. It's your choice and I respect that you need to do what you feel is right for you but I would find it offensive to force someone into a religious ceremony that they didn't believe in as well. If the fiance doesn't believe in these things then she shouldn't have a Catholic wedding. Perhaps they will compromise and have a ceremony with a priest but at her church. Even if they don't, I would still be in the wedding party. If I were her and you told me your reasons for not being in the wedding party, I'd be pretty offended and I'd take it personally. I would probably think that this meant you didn't approve of our marriage and it wouldn't start our relationship off on the right foot.

Calypso1977 · June 2010

i have been in the WP's for non-catholic weddings since in their eyes/faith their marriages were valid and they are doing a ceremony in line with what they believe in.

i know my uncle married outside teh church, and my mom was in this very situation. she opted not to be in the WP, went to the ceremony but stood in the back, and i dont think she went to the reception. however, my uncle hadnt been practicing catholicism for awhile, and ultimately converted to a protestant faith and he and my aunt have been very active in that church ever since.

my folks also declined to attend all of the second (and third!) weddings of my father's 4 siblings since none of them were in the Church and none of their first catholic weddings, to their knowledge, had been annulled. my father had been BM in his brother's wedding, was asked to be BM again in the 2nd, and he declined.

Calypso1977 · June 2010

It's your choice and I respect that you need to do what you feel is right for you but I would find it offensive to force someone into a religious ceremony that they didn't believe in as well.

i dont see how my decision to decline to be in the WP would force them to do something else.

if they do the catholic wedding, its because his fiancee understands that the marriage wont be valid the grooms' religion. she is of a protestant faith.

and i appove of the couple, but i dont approve of him turning his back on his faith for it. but again, its complicated since he's not taht strong in his faith to begin wiht, but does take communion on the occasions he goes.

mica178 · June 2010

If he's still taking Communion, I hope he considers doing a joint ceremony and doing marriage prep so the marriage can be sacramental.

I know all of this is theoretical until they choose a venue and name/ask their WPs, but would you consider talking with your in-laws about this? Maybe they or the family priest could provide some guidance to your BIL. Obviously, your FSIL shouldn't be forced to have a Catholic wedding if she doesn't believe in Catholicism and doesn't want to raise their future children as Catholic, but then maybe your BIL needs to look at his beliefs and figure out if he should continue taking Communion.

mbcdefg · June 2010

If you support the couple and their marriage, and you're good friends with them, I think you should be in the wedding party.

It's not your job to approve or disapprove of their faith. If your BIL has chosen not to continue with the Catholic faith, then that's his decision. You can certainly feel however you want to feel about them not having a church wedding, but refusing to be a part of their wedding and harboring a bit of resentment toward them for it is, IMO, a very un-Christian way to lead your life. Refusing to be in the wedding is just going to make them hurt and angry ... it's not going to prove any kind of point other than a point to yourself. And since it sounds like your BIL only attends Mass on rare occasions, him having a Catholic church wedding isn't going to make a difference in his faith. At least he's not going through with a Catholic wedding that he doesn't believe in just to make his family happy ... I personally find that WAY more offensive than people having a civil wedding.

And if you want a VERY honest opinion, I would personally find it really obnoxious and pretentious if someone refused to be a part of my wedding because they didn't approve of my faith. (Assuming we were otherwise good friends and they supported my healthy, loving relationship with MH.) Their souls aren't yours to save. If you are sad that he's abandoning the Catholic faith, then that's fine and quite understandable, but refusing to be in their wedding on that principle alone would be a VERY public judgement against them. I wouldn't look at a family member/friend the same way if they did this to me.

I can understand you having issues with him taking Communion when he really shouldn't be. But, again, that's on his conscience and not yours.

Calypso1977 · June 2010

well, my MIL def wants them to be married in the church. but honestly, she and my FIL are in part the reason H and his siblings are not very strong in their faith to begin with. she had to force her daughter to have Mass against her will (they were both catholic and to me it was a no brainer to have Mass) because she didnt see the importance in having mass with the ceremony. FIL never goes to church, talks badly about the church, and his mom goes on holidays only. so its not surprising that none of the kids have a strong sense of faith now. H has gotten better, but that's largely been due to my influence.

i honestly think that none of them have any issues wtih taking communion even though they havent been in a confessional in years. i just dont think my BIL even grasps the concept that his marriage wont be valid, but sadly i dont think he'd even care if he did. i think FSIL is somewhat indifferent, so i'm hoping this is all going to be a moot point anyway, but i wantedt o be somewhat prepared in case it doesnt work out the way we hope it will.

ring_pop · June 2010

I would absolutely still stand up in their WP. I'd feel like, I'm not doing the couple, or the Catholic church, any favours by declining.

But feel free to take the thoughts of a Cafeteria Catholic with a grain of salt.

agapecarrie · June 2010

Its in canon law that Catholics cannot be an official witness to an invalid marriage, which is what this would be. Your official role can cause scandal as it can be seen as approval. Your standing strong about this issue can possibly plant a seed that may be helpful in the future. To be an official witness would be to encourage sin.

(To clarify for some that might not know, 2 protestants can marry validly in a protestant church, but a Catholic is bound by canon law...by form and matter for validity)

mbcdefg · June 2010

i honestly think that none of them have any issues wtih taking communion even though they havent been in a confessional in years. i just dont think my BIL even grasps the concept that his marriage wont be valid, but sadly i dont think he'd even care if he did.

But if he's not a believer in the faith, does it really matter if it's "valid" or not?

I mean, my marriage probably isn't "valid" according to Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. But since I don't practice or believe in any of these faiths, what does that matter to me? That's not my idea of "valid." If he doesn't follow Catholicism and all he believes is that a marriage needs to be legally recognized through some kind of civil ceremony, then that is what's "valid" to him.

If he's already a lapse Catholic, then I highly doubt that you boycotting his wedding party is going to plant any type of "seed." It's just going to come across as a way of saying, "You're not living your life according to my standards, so you're automatically wrong."

Calypso1977 · June 2010

well, he's a believer in the faith as far as periphery goes. meaning, he identifies with it, wouldnt think of converting to something else, yet doesnt really live the life, ahtough he somewhat practices since he doesnt have anything against the church, still goes on occasion adn takes communion. maybe an apathetic cafeteria catholic??

i think if he were fully fallen away and/or wanted to convert to his fiancee's faith, as my uncle did, that woudl be a whole other story since he wouldnt believe or follow the faith. that seems clearer cut to me.

it probably will come across as judgmental to decline, but at the same time i feel i have a duty to defend my faith and my beliefs. just as i woudlnt expect them to do somethign they dont beleive in, i dont think i should do something i dont believe in or feel comfortable with either. they know that i'm pretty serious about my faith - i woudl hope that they could understand that if i decline it isnt meant to be judgemental, but rather because i'm doing what i feel is right for me.

Riss91 · June 2010

Ladies, I don't think she's trying to "stick it to them" or prove a point to them. I think she's questioning whether her acting as a formal witness is in conflict with HER OWN faith/soul/communion with the Catholic church.

As agape points out:
Its in canon law that Catholics cannot be an official witness to an invalid marriage, which is what this would be. Your official role can cause scandal as it can be seen as approval. Your standing strong about this issue can possibly plant a seed that may be helpful in the future. To be an official witness would be to encourage sin.

Where I am torn is whether a Catholic that has fallen away from the church, with no intention of returning, should still be regarded as a Catholic in this situation. Would that make them no different than someone who is of another religion, and therefore not elicit the same canon law requirements?

mica178 · June 2010

I don't think the issue is whether your participation in the WP will change how your BIL and FSIL live their lives. It's more of an issue of what your participation in the WP would mean to your own lives.

While I don't think BM/MOH are required to stuff envelopes or host ridiculous pre-wedding parties, I do think the role is more than just wearing a dress and standing up at the altar. The WP is there to support the marriage, and as Catholics participating in a mixed religion wedding, you need to ask yourselves, what does your participation mean? Your and your husbands answers might differ (especially since the groom is his brother), and that's fine.

But if you are uncomfortable about the specifics of the union, you shouldn't be in the WP. You can love and support the couple, but standing up at the altar means that you're okay with how they're doing things, and from what you've written, that does not seem to be the case.

Calypso1977 · June 2010

Where I am torn is whether a Catholic that has fallen away from the church, with no intention of returning, should still be regarded as a Catholic in this situation. Would that make them no different than someone who is of another religion, and therefore not elicit the same canon law requirements?

i have heard that once a baptized catholic, you are always catholic, even if you convert/fall away/attend another church. so probably strict interpretation would say that folks in those groups are still catholic because they were baptized as such.

however, id support someone who made an informed life decision to be something else other than catholic, and who does not attempt to still take communion or partially practice catholicism. but, that's probably a violation of canon law. however, id rather see someone become another faith than fake it in catholicism.

Riss91 · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_would?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:98a9f4d7-9625-4f7e-93ab-753e1f217da3Post:3ba64867-07ff-41bc-82cd-4bee66c2746e">Re: would you?</a>:
[QUOTE] however, id rather see someone become another faith than fake it in catholicism.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

Absolutely

mbcdefg · June 2010

Ladies, I don't think she's trying to "stick it to them" or prove a point to them. I think she's questioning whether her acting as a formal witness is in conflict with HER OWN faith/soul/communion with the Catholic church.

I agree with you, but my point was that it may come across as judgemental and holier-than-thou to the BIL and FSIL, and perhaps others.

Another point ... if you're asked to be a bridesmaid for what appears to be a "true" Catholic couple, who regularly attended Mass and takes Communion properly and all of that, how do you truly know that they ARE Catholics in good standing? Maybe they're secretly having secret affairs, molesting children, imbezzling money, etc. In that case, you also would've been wrong to act as a formal witness for a sinning couple - the difference is that you wouldn't have known it.

Calypso1977 · June 2010

Another point ... if you're asked to be a bridesmaid for what appears to be a "true" Catholic couple, who regularly attended Mass and takes Communion properly and all of that, how do you truly know that they ARE Catholics in good standing? Maybe they're secretly having secret affairs, molesting children, imbezzling money, etc. In that case, you also would've been wrong to act as a formal witness for a sinning couple - the difference is that you wouldn't have known it.

i disagree. some things are an act of faith - similar to when a priest passes out communion. he passes it out on the assumption that those receiving are in good standing. its the best he can do. its no sin on him if he gives communion to someone who isnt in good standing unless he knows it and gives it. as a witness, i dont know if they are in good standing. i proceed on the faith that they are. howver, marrying outside the church is a clear public indicator that they are in violation.

mica178 · June 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_would?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:98a9f4d7-9625-4f7e-93ab-753e1f217da3Post:402b3deb-5fb1-4c91-a471-2129edeff754">Re: would you?</a>:
[QUOTE] Another point ... if you're asked to be a bridesmaid for what appears to be a "true" Catholic couple, who regularly attended Mass and takes Communion properly and all of that, how do you truly know that they ARE Catholics in good standing? Maybe they're secretly having secret affairs, molesting children, imbezzling money, etc. In that case, you also would've been wrong to act as a formal witness for a sinning couple - the difference is that you wouldn't have known it.
Posted by mbcdefg[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between unintentionally standing up for a person who deceived you and standing up for people that you know to be sinning. It all comes down to your intentions and what you know with the information provided.

I'd focus less on worrying about being perceived as judgmental and more on doing what is right according to your beliefs. As long as you're polite and honest with your decision, I think the best thing you could do for the couple is make a decision that you're content with. I doubt they'd want you to stand in the WP if you were uncomfortable doing so.

mbcdefg · June 2010

however, id rather see someone become another faith than fake it in catholicism.

Well, here's another thought ... wouldn't it be "faking it" if he DID have a Catholic wedding? So unless the BIL fully back to his faith like OP desires, which it seems like he has no interest in, he can't win in this situation.

My point is, I can understand not wanting to support something you don't agree with, but I also don't see how refusing to be in the wedding party benefits anyone other than yourself. Hopefully your BIL and FSIL would understand your reasoning and not be offended by it, if you explain that your devotion to your faith would make you uncomfortable being their bridesmaids, but I also think you run a very high risk of them taking this as a personal insult.

I truly don't understand how someone else's devotion to THEIR faith (or lack thereof) really affects your faith, as long as they're good people. I just honestly don't get how it would impact your life that much, and I don't think it's fair to hold someone else up to one's personal standards of what "faith" really is. On a bigger spectrum, this is what wars are started over.

(This is generally speaking, not a knock at you, Calypso.)

Riss91 · June 2010

Wouldn't it be "faking it" if he DID have a Catholic wedding? So unless the BIL fully back to his faith like OP desires, which it seems like he has no interest in, he can't win in this situation.
I would agree that it would be a similar problem if he had no interest in the church, was not practicing and had no interest in raising his children Catholic. In both instances, Calypso would be witness to an invalid marriage.

My point is, I can understand not wanting to support something you don't agree with, but I also don't see how refusing to be in the wedding party benefits anyone other than yourself.
I think that it's not about benefiting anyone, and you're right, it's about her personal faith. It wouldn't benefit her by not standing up, but it could negatively impact her by being an official witness as this goes against her beliefs.

I truly don't understand how someone else's devotion to THEIR faith (or lack thereof) really affects your faith, as long as they're good people. I just honestly don't get how it would impact your life that much, and I don't think it's fair to hold someone else up to one's personal standards of what "faith" really is.
It would negatively impact her if she fell out of grace with the church by being witness to an invalid marriage. I don't think she's trying to force her BIL to uphold her standards, she's making a personal decision that suits her beliefs. At the same time, the bride and groom shouldn't expect her to neglect her faith in order to appease them.

Myroni03 · June 2010

As a proud protestant woman I would have a hard time with any of FI's Catholic friends that would decline b/c they didn't think our wedding was a valid one under the church rules. Our wedding will be valid for both of our Churches.

Since Vatican II, the rules surronding marriage have relaxed and a mixed marriage (as in a Catholic and Protestant) may take place in a protestant church without a priest even being present and still can be recorded as valid as long as certain steps are taken.

Furthermore, a Catholic can marry a Protestant in a non-denominaitonal church as long as certain steps are taken.

Maybe IF you are asked to be in their wedding party, you may ask them if they are in fact having a wedding that would be considered valid in the Church's eyes, and if not you may then decide ostrasize yourself from that part of the family.

MissAngel · June 2010

But aren't we missing the point a little here? Standing as a BM for someone is supporting them in their decision to marry and to stand as a witness to the start of their new life. I think it would be similar to saying, yes you are my best friend, but since you aren't a Catholic in good standing, I really don't want you to be my MOH and in addition, I would like to plant this seed for you to know that I don't agree with the things that you do, thus, and as a consequence, I do not want you to be my witness for the start of my marriage.

In the same regard, would you not want your parents to be recognized and walk down the aisle before the procession because they would be announcing that they approve of the sinning children?

Riss91 · June 2010

As a proud protestant woman I would have a hard time with any of FI's Catholic friends that would decline b/c they didn't think our wedding was a valid one under the church rules. Our wedding will be valid for both of our Churches.
I'm thinking Calypso's question/concern is based on the thought that the ceremony would not be valid for the Catholic church. Otherwise, she wouldn't have a problem. But you raise a good point that perhaps they couple would be able to do fulfill both requirements. I'm sure Calypso would find this information out before making a decision.

You may ask them if they are in fact having a wedding that would be considered valid in the Church's eyes, and if not you may then decide ostrasize yourself from that part of the family.
I'm not sure why declining the offer to be in a wedding party automatically results in being ostracized from the entire family. If she feels she is in conflict with her faith, shouldn't the family respect that?

But aren't we missing the point a little here? Standing as a BM for someone is supporting them in their decision to marry and to stand as a witness to the start of their new life. I think it would be similar to saying, yes you are my best friend, but since you aren't a Catholic in good standing, I really don't want you to be my MOH and in addition, I would like to plant this seed for you to know that I don't agree with the things that you do, thus, and as a consequence, I do not want you to be my witness for the start of my marriage.
I don't really think the point is to say "I am not supporting you because you're not a Catholic (or in good-standing)". The point is: Do you go against your church/beliefs to appease someone's request for their wedding?

mica178 · June 2010

I agree with Riss 100%. Or maybe even 1000%

No matter your decision, I'm sure that God knows how tough it's been to make, since your Catholic faith is so strong. I hope your in-laws appreciate that!

MissAngel · June 2010

If that were the case, then being in conflict with one's church/beliefs would also mean she shouldn't want to attend the wedding ceremony as well since by attending she would still be showing support for her brother and ultimately the lifestyle he has chosen. Attendance = support.

Riss91 · June 2010

Attendance can mean support, but it isn't the same thing as being an official witness to the ceremony. Canon law doesn't forbid Catholics from attending non-Catholic weddings.

PressMe · June 2010

Wow! This is tough and I appreciate you opening up the discussion in such an open forum. As someone who has been Catholic for only a year, you've given me food for thought.

I understand your dilemma. If you feel that it violates what you believe, there's no reason to decline being part of the WP. That's why we ask people. Everyone has the right to opt out for whatever reason. I think it would be much better to opt out than to have it hanging over your head the entire process. That wouldn't be good for anyone.

As for your DH...since it's his brother, I see why he's staying in. No matter what, he's standing by his brother on an important day in his life.

MissAngel · June 2010

According to my presider, canon law requires you have 2 official witnesses... which is general MOH and Best Man. Bridesmaids would not be considered official witnesses. It must depend on who you ask.

For example, if my sister asked me to support her by coming to an island to see her get married outside the church and I truly felt so strongly in my belief... (and didn't want to encourage/support this type of behavior) that I feel attending an event whether requested to be a guest or a member of the bridal party would injure my standing/beliefs, I wouldn't go to the wedding at all let alone be a member of the bridal party.

I have a friend that attends church every once in a while and decides to take communion as well... however, I explained to him that it wasn't correct to do so according to our beliefs/laws/rites and he stopped doing it until he went to confession and started attending regular masses. So by not saying anything to said person about his neglecting the church beliefs/laws/rites, it's a way of encouraging the behavior as well.

It's a matter of perspective.

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