Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?

KentuckyKate · April 2011

I'm doing a little research for my medical ethics class. This may be sensitive to some people- I've gotten very mixed responses so far.

Let's say you are pregnant by IVF, and you have frozen the embryos you didn't implant. You have a healthy baby and decide you're done having kids, so you donate your remaining embryos to infertile couples. Assume the embryos will be brought to term. The resulting children are your full genetic offspring and full biological siblings to your child.

Do you think the same policies should be in place for the couples adopting embryos as there are for those adopting babies? (Screening, home studies, etc.) Do you think the same policies should be in place for couples donating their embryos as there are for couples placing their baby for adoption? (e.g. participating in some kind of counseling) Or do you think it should be regarded more like a sperm bank transaction?

Do you think the adopted embryos should eventually have rights in regard to knowledge about his/her biological parents? Should they be able to request that information be available to them when they reach adulthood?

Do you think such policies could erode abortion rights for women, since it provides legal support to the view that embryos are persons, even at this very early stage of fetal development?

Gracias ladies!

andy71781 · April 2011

I might be mean/cruel but I have a problem with people adopting embryos.

mica178 · April 2011

I'd love to have this debate, but I'm still at work. I will hop in later if people want to hear my crazy Catholic side of things.

KentuckyKate · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:53fb0afc-8b67-4bee-9ef3-ca21d0006e32">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]I might be mean/cruel but I have a problem with people adopting embryos.
Posted by andy71781[/QUOTE]
Because of all the children that need to be adopted already?

KentuckyKate · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:475fbd9d-20a8-4b86-aa4e-568d3cbf7c9c">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]I'd love to have this debate, but I'm still at work. I will hop in later if people want to hear my crazy Catholic side of things. ;)
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]
Yes!

andy71781 · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:3f4c7703-bb1d-4d20-9896-39d54fe23b8c">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions? : Because of all the children that need to be adopted already?
Posted by KentuckyKate[/QUOTE]
Yes. And overpopulation concerns in general.

Beachy730 · April 2011

Do you think such policies could erode abortion rights for women, since it provides legal support to the view that embryos are persons, even at this very early stage of fetal development?

This is the only one I can easily answer. Yes, I think it will affect abortion rights. Many pro-choice people feel that an embryo is just an embryo, and not a person. So I don't think you could ever control embryo adoption without it having an effect on abortion arguments.

leia1979 · April 2011

Do you think the same policies should be in place for the couples adopting embryos as there are for those adopting babies? (Screening, home studies, etc.)
No, but I do think there ought to be some pre-counseling for IVF to avoid the octomom scenario.

Do you think the same policies should be in place for couples donating their embryos as there are for couples placing their baby for adoption? (e.g. participating in some kind of counseling) Or do you think it should be regarded more like a sperm bank transaction?
I don't think people have the same emotional attachment to a frozen embryo as they do to a child carried to term, so it would be more like the sperm bank transaction.

Do you think the adopted embryos should eventually have rights in regard to knowledge about his/her biological parents? Should they be able to request that information be available to them when they reach adulthood?
Yes, they might need important medical history or family information later in their lives.

Do you think such policies could erode abortion rights for women, since it provides legal support to the view that embryos are persons, even at this very early stage of fetal development?
This question actually made me think about my answers to the first couple questions because I am concerned that it could be used to attack abortion rights. If an embryo transplant is treated like the adoption of a child, it could very well be used to argue against legal abortion.

KentuckyKate · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:a36dbca5-9a54-4810-94b2-6f7586de85f8">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions? : Yes. And overpopulation concerns in general.
Posted by andy71781[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, Andy. I understand the need to have your own biological child. But if you can't do that and are willing to adopt a child, then adopt one that already exists. Then again, some people do see embryos as children, not just potential children, so in their point of view, they are adopting a living person.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · April 2011

I would not personally engage in IVF, as I have my own reasons (as does DH, which may or may not include his Catholic upbringing), so this is purely hypothetical but I would consider embryos to be more like a sperm bank issue than adoption.

However, it could be up to the individuals giving up their embryos.

I do not think it would impact abortion rights or the personhood of embryos. First, IVF is not always successful, so IMO the embryo is a potential person, and this doesn't convey personhood. Second, I believe there are some laws in place in some areas where children of sperm donors can track down their biological father and I don't see anyone arguing that it confers personhood on the sperm. Because sperm is also potential life. I also tend to think that needing to know your background for medical issues is grossly overexagerated. If there's a severe genetic issue within the family, the couple would likely not be doing IVF to begin with. If there's a lesser issue, like a history of depression, they can pass it on as an "FYI" to the prospective parents if they'd like, but it's not as though you NEED to know your parent suffered from depression in order for you to be successfully treated for it.

SteveandKris · April 2011

Do you think the same policies should be in place for the couples adopting embryos as there are for those adopting babies? (Screening, home studies, etc.) Do you think the same policies should be in place for couples donating their embryos as there are for couples placing their baby for adoption? (e.g. participating in some kind of counseling) Or do you think it should be regarded more like a sperm bank transaction?

The same policies (including counselling, etc) for couple undergoing IVF with their own embryos should apply. Many unused embryos just sit, not donated, unused - I feel as long as both members of a party agree, no further counselling (read: roadblocks) are necessary.

Do you think the adopted embryos should eventually have rights in regard to knowledge about his/her biological parents? Should they be able to request that information be available to them when they reach adulthood?

Please educate me: do children who are the product of a "sperm bank transaction" have this information available to them? I think the same rights should apply to them, if they are different from those of adoptive infants.

KentuckyKate · April 2011

I'm struggling a little because I feel like donating an embryo is a step up from a college kid selling his sperm, but nowhere near placing your living baby up for adoption.

I agree with Leia that it seems very unlikely someone could have such an emotional attachment to an embryo the way they would to a baby they carried.

I also agree with Mery about the whole family history thing being exaggerated. Nowadays they have genetic testing for that, anyway.

leia1979 · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:02a724a0-7dd9-464e-adad-c67b52c7effd">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE].... I also tend to think that needing to know your background for medical issues is grossly overexagerated. If there's a severe genetic issue within the family, the couple would likely not be doing IVF to begin with. If there's a lesser issue, like a history of depression, they can pass it on as an "FYI" to the prospective parents if they'd like, but it's not as though you NEED to know your parent suffered from depression in order for you to be successfully treated for it.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

I actually disagree with this somewhat because of my own personal experience. I am my parents' oldest child and as far as I know, medically normal. My younger brother unfortunately has severe medical issues that are believed to be genetic. If my parents had done IVF and had me, a normal child, there would be no reason to know that one of those other embryos could potentially have a severe genetic issue.

I'm sure there's a lot more testing these days, but since no doctor can actually say for sure what's wrong with my brother, I doubt they could have tested for it. So what if a child that everyone thinks should be okay isn't. It would be nice to be able to go back to the biological parents for more information, if possible.

ETA: I'm sure this is a one in a million case, but since it's my life, it feels much more likely than the odds would dictate.

GeauxTigers17 · April 2011

I think it's impossible to answer these questions without answering the biggest question at the heart of the abortion debate, as you mention at the end of your post. The answer, for me, turns on whether an embryo is a life or not. Legally requiring embryo transfers to meet adoption standards will lead pro-life activists to seize on the double standard; for example, it raises the issue of why an embryo in a test tube should have greater rights than one already implanted and growing.

I don't think it should be treated like a sperm bank transaction. Unlike sperm alone, a fertilized egg actually has the potential to create life. However, if a couple chooses to give up their embryos, I don't think they should have any rights to them later. I do think that medical information only (not contact information or names, if the donors want to remain anonymous) should be furnished to children of IVF transfers upon request, but I think that should be done for all adopted children. My mother was adopted and it's unnerving to have no idea of any family history - she gets mammograms every 6 months because of it.

Still need to think about whether the adoption policies are a good idea. My general view is that the government is already way too involved in personal decisions, and government agencies don't exactly have a reputation for being the greatest arbiters of what is fair and good anyway.

ETA: Y'all are quick! About 8 people posted while I was typing, haha.

KentuckyKate · April 2011

Mery, have you read any articles by Mary Anne Warren? Your point of view sounds a lot like hers. I just read something she wrote about the criteria for personhood while I was researching this topic.

KentuckyKate · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:17ac5b40-de6d-4313-b38a-613d98ee3d0e">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]I think it's impossible to answer these questions without answering the biggest question at the heart of the abortion debate, as you mention at the end of your post. The answer, for me, turns on whether an embryo is a life or not.
Posted by GeauxTigers17[/QUOTE]
Exactly... this is why I warned people that it was heavy and sensitive. It's been really interesting to hear everyone's POV though!

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:2c61a8a6-6bc8-48a5-808d-a85f2972219c">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions? : I actually disagree with this somewhat because of my own personal experience. I am my parents' oldest child and as far as I know, medically normal. My younger brother unfortunately has severe medical issues that are believed to be genetic. If my parents had done IVF and had me, a normal child, there would be no reason to know that one of those other embryos could potentially have a severe genetic issue. I'm sure there's a lot more testing these days, but since no doctor can actually say for sure what's wrong with my brother, I doubt they could have tested for it. So what if a child that everyone thinks should be okay isn't. It would be nice to be able to go back to the biological parents for more information, if possible. ETA: I'm sure this is a one in a million case, but since it's my life, it feels much more likely than the odds would dictate.
Posted by leia1979[/QUOTE]

Without knowing anything about your brother or family history, if you parents had you, then gave away some other embryos, would they have ever had any idea they could possibly have children with a genetic issue? I realize your brother was probably born prior to the wide availability of in utero genetic testing and whatnot, so this might be theoretical. I mean, anyone can have anything without it showing up in their family tree... sort of. Slight genetic mutations happen to embryos without really a known medical reason. Plus, today they can screen these embryos for severe genetic mutations, like Down Syndrome. However, I'm refering to something more like cystic fibrosis or tay sachs. If someone has that in their family or is a carrier, I assume they wouldn't pay all that money to do IVF, knowing that at least some of the embrios wouldn't be viable, not due to quality, but due to genetics.

My grandmother died of breast cancer at age 54 after having been diagnosed at age 42. Had my mother developed breast cancer at an early age (she's 56 and no signs yet, thankfully) I would have been genetically tested for the breast cancer gene. If that's something that runs in one's family, it's no reason not to have biological children. It's something they MIGHT want to tell the other couple, but it's not necessary to their child's survival. However, if I was unaware of my biological origins, I might have some genetic screening done, just in case. To figure out if was at risk of developing certain things or a carrier for other things.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:17ac5b40-de6d-4313-b38a-613d98ee3d0e">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]I think it's impossible to answer these questions without answering the biggest question at the heart of the abortion debate, as you mention at the end of your post. The answer, for me, turns on whether an embryo is a life or not. Legally requiring embryo transfers to meet adoption standards will lead pro-life activists to seize on the double standard; for example, it raises the issue of why an embryo in a test tube should have greater rights than one already implanted and growing. I don't think it should be treated like a sperm bank transaction. Unlike sperm alone, a fertilized egg actually has the potential to create life. However, if a couple chooses to give up their embryos, I don't think they should have any rights to them later. I do think that medical information only (not contact information or names, if the donors want to remain anonymous) should be furnished to children of IVF transfers upon request, but I think that should be done for all adopted children. My mother was adopted and it's unnerving to have no idea of any family history - she gets mammograms every 6 months because of it. Still need to think about whether the adoption policies are a good idea. My general view is that the government is already way too involved in personal decisions, and government agencies don't exactly have a reputation for being the greatest arbiters of what is fair and good anyway. ETA: Y'all are quick! About 8 people posted while I was typing, haha.
Posted by GeauxTigers17[/QUOTE]

I don't see this as much different from the arguments the pro-life movement uses today. Within the abortion debate, the pro-choice side factors in 1) the right of the women to not be forced to use her body as a host (which doesn't apply) and 2) the right of one to control their genetic material (and by allowing embryo adoption, you are already putting your genetic material into the world and allowing it to develop). So I see other issues which would keep the abortion debate relevent and not effect the outcome.

ETA: there's just always a reason abortion is not like anything else and it will always be it's own thing.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:65102931-34bf-4676-8d20-8efec03ea717">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]Mery, have you read any articles by Mary Anne Warren? Your point of view sounds a lot like hers. I just read something she wrote about the criteria for personhood while I was researching this topic.
Posted by KentuckyKate[/QUOTE]

No, but I will look her up, because as someone concerned with reproductive rights, the issue of personhood is interesting to me.

KentuckyKate · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:6e1e1964-179d-400b-9070-c2a301961229">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions? : No, but I will look her up, because as someone concerned with reproductive rights, the issue of personhood is interesting to me.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
The article I read is called "On the Moral and Legal Status of Abortion" and it was from 1973 Philosophical Journal. These are the points from the article I used in my outline:

<ul><li>"…it is not possible to produce a satisfactory defense of a woman's right to obtain an abortion without showing that a fetus is not a human being, in the morally relevant sense of that term..."</li><li>there is a distinction between the genetic and moral sense of the term "human being."</li><li>Being human in the genetic sense is not sufficient to be considered human in the moral sense.</li><li>In order to be considered a member of the moral community one must fit the criteria of personhood.</li><li></li></ul> Criteria of Personhood: <ul><li>Consciousness and in particular the capacity to feel pain;</li><li>Reasoning (the developed capacity to solve new and relatively complex problems);</li><li>Self-motivated activity (activity which is relatively independent of either genetic or direct external control)</li><li>The capacity to communicate</li><li>The presence of self-concepts and self-awareness</li><li></li></ul> Additional questions: How much like a person does a fetus need to be to have a right to life? <ul><li>The fetus can only be considered somewhat like a person because they do not possess all of the criteria</li></ul> To what extent, if any, does the fact that a fetus has the potential for becoming a person endow it with some of the same rights? <ul><li>The fetus may have a prima facie right to life as a potential person but this right cannot outweigh the right of an actual person (the woman).</li></ul>

Ghoti · April 2011

Alright I'm going to try.

Hypothetically, I think embryos adopted with intent to become someones children should be treated the same as the adoptions of babies who are already born.

ETA to elaborate-

Do you think the same policies should be in place for the couples adopting embryos as there are for those adopting babies? (Screening, home studies, etc.) Yes Do you think the same policies should be in place for couples donating their embryos as there are for couples placing their baby for adoption? (e.g. participating in some kind of counseling) Or do you think it should be regarded more like a sperm bank transaction?
I think some sort of education regarding rights/laws and how to deal with possible "feelings" after donation should occur, whether that's through a class or counseling or just a pamphlet.
Do you think the adopted embryos should eventually have rights in regard to knowledge about his/her biological parents? No Should they be able to request that information be available to them when they reach adulthood? No. However I do think full medical history should be available.

Do you think such policies could erode abortion rights for women, since it provides legal support to the view that embryos are persons, even at this very early stage of fetal development? No. I don't see it as providing legal support, as an embryo is still just a possibility to become a human.

missy68 · April 2011

Kate - I would see if you can find some people who have gone the IVF route and have been both successful and unsuccessful. They may be able to give you answers that are more realistic than ours would be, assuming no one on here has done/tried IVF.

I am not sure I would be unbiased on it, based on my closeness to the situation. My SIL and brother did do IVF, and she was pregnant every time - for a short period - and miscarried all 4 very early on. Each time, I think, they used 2 embryos. The last time, they used 4 or 6. I don't know if they were all fertilized from the start, or fertilized as they went along. That could also influence any decision.

I'm also torn, and don't know how I feel about it personally. Maybe that is my opinion - it's personal.

KentuckyKate · April 2011

Sorry, that looked so much tidier in Word. I guess bullet points don't copy+paste on TK.

Birdie1483 · April 2011

Do you think the same policies should be in place for the couples adopting embryos as there are for those adopting babies? (Screening, home studies, etc.) Do you think the same policies should be in place for couples donating their embryos as there are for couples placing their baby for adoption? (e.g. participating in some kind of counseling) Or do you think it should be regarded more like a sperm bank transaction?

I think the adopting embryo couples should have the same availability to information as to adopting baby couples. I don't think there should be mandatory counseling for donating couples, but I personally could never do that. I don't even understand sperm donation.

Do you think the adopted embryos should eventually have rights in regard to knowledge about his/her biological parents? Should they be able to request that information be available to them when they reach adulthood?

I don't know if they necessarily need to know names, addresses, etc. but I think they should have the ability to know medical history. The bio parents didn't actually carry them to full term, so I don't think they have the same claim on the embryo children as parents who gave birth and put the kid up for adoption and I don't think there would be any type of emotional attachment there that would make a child want to know the bio parents. I could be wrong though, I just don't see it as the same.

Do you think such policies could erode abortion rights for women, since it provides legal support to the view that embryos are persons, even at this very early stage of fetal development?

Yes. This is a huge gray area that doesn't have a very clear answer.

KentuckyKate · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:1bdf49f0-6d3f-4fdf-a431-74e8f67c62ed">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]Kate - I would see if you can find some people who have gone the IVF route and have been both successful and unsuccessful. They may be able to give you answers that are more realistic than ours would be, assuming no one on here has done/tried IVF.
Posted by missy68[/QUOTE]
I thought about that, but I was afraid that would be way too touchy. Maybe if I knew someone personally who had done it, but I don't think it's appropriate to head over to the IF board on TB or anything.

Birdie1483 · April 2011

I read a book last year called Misconception that was about a couple who had frozen embryos and they were accidentally implanted in another woman. The woman ended up carrying the baby to term and gave the kid back to the bio parents after she gave birth. It was pretty interesting.

jaycee7389 · April 2011

okay, before i post i will say that i am pro-choice (i'm not sure if you would like to know that as it will obviously impact opinions about the question).

Do you think the same policies should be in place for the couples adopting embryos as there are for those adopting babies? (Screening, home studies, etc.) Do you think the same policies should be in place for couples donating their embryos as there are for couples placing their baby for adoption? (e.g. participating in some kind of counseling) Or do you think it should be regarded more like a sperm bank transaction?

I feel that it should be treated more like a sperm bank transaction. As a PP said, I highly doubt there would be any real emotional attachment to the embryo as an adoption would. I do feel the "adopting" couple should have counseling regarding IVF.

Do you think the adopted embryos should eventually have rights in regard to knowledge about his/her biological parents? Should they be able to request that information be available to them when they reach adulthood?

I feel they should have the rights to medical history, and that is all. Obviously if the donating parents and "adopting" parents agree that the child may communicate back and forth there is no reason for that not to happen.

Do you think such policies could erode abortion rights for women, since it provides legal support to the view that embryos are persons, even at this very early stage of fetal development?

Well, because I do not feel an embryo should be treated the same as adoption/ as persons, no.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:d2ac89b3-87e6-4a1c-81ca-fdfb8b6fabff">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions? : The article I read is called "On the Moral and Legal Status of Abortion" and it was from 1973 Philosophical Journal. These are the points from the article I used in my outline: "…it is not possible to produce a satisfactory defense of a woman's right to obtain an abortion without showing that a fetus is not a human being, in the morally relevant sense of that term..." there is a distinction between the genetic and moral sense of the term "human being." Being human in the genetic sense is not sufficient to be considered human in the moral sense. In order to be considered a member of the moral community one must fit the criteria of personhood. Criteria of Personhood: Consciousness and in particular the capacity to feel pain; Reasoning (the developed capacity to solve new and relatively complex problems); Self-motivated activity (activity which is relatively independent of either genetic or direct external control) The capacity to communicate The presence of self-concepts and self-awareness Additional questions: How much like a person does a fetus need to be to have a right to life? The fetus can only be considered somewhat like a person because they do not possess all of the criteria To what extent, if any, does the fact that a fetus has the potential for becoming a person endow it with some of the same rights? The fetus may have a prima facie right to life as a potential person but this right cannot outweigh the right of an actual person (the woman).
Posted by KentuckyKate[/QUOTE]

This kind of thing is interesting, because self-awareness (self-recognition) doesn't necessarily begin until a child is over a year old. But no one campaigns for infanticide.

I also know that for Catholics "life" begins at conception (as in a soul is created at that moment), but that wouldn't necessarily be considered personhood, and definitely not in the legal sense.

KentuckyKate · April 2011

Interesting tidbit I found: 27% of abortions are obtained by people who identified themselves as Catholic.

Ghoti · April 2011

Kate, can you explain this "Do you think such policies could erode abortion rights for women, since it provides legal support to the view that embryos are persons, even at this very early stage of fetal development?"

How does it provide legal support?

missy68 · April 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_late-day-heavy-hypothetical-ethical-questions?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:d1e3bb2a-93a9-4839-a146-866ad705272bPost:5db4f4b7-e7f1-480d-82aa-bbff52354c04">Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions? : I thought about that, but I was afraid that would be way too touchy. Maybe if I knew someone personally who had done it, but I don't think it's appropriate to head over to the IF board on TB or anything.
Posted by KentuckyKate[/QUOTE]

I know what you're saying - it can be a touchy subject. However, if you start off introducing yourself and what class you're taking and what the GENERAL subject is then ask them to PM you if they'd like to participate (and acknowledge the sensitivity), it might be okay.

I will do this for you - I will copy and send the questions to my brother tomorrow. I know trying to adopt made him struggle with his views on quite a few things.

Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?

Re: Too late in the day for heavy hypothetical ethical questions?

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