I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...

monkeysip · February 2013

I don't know if I agree with Agape or Riss on that.

For some people, just finding another employer is not a viable option. There are some locations where some companies make up most of the jobs in a town. And moving isn't possible. Or many other circumstances that make it difficult for people to just choose for whom they want to work.

Of course, this is why I wish healthcare wasn't tied to employers at all. I also wish it were like the Canadian system or something similar, but only if contraception and abortion weren't covered (obviously that's another argument altogether, which I'm not trying to start at all... just that there is no simple solution to the healthcare problem)

chelseamb11 · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:06ca89bb-1265-493d-9913-c200e5d040a9">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]Honestly....<strong> I say let people choose to not offer pap-smears, blood transfusions, etc. They will find that fewer people want to work for them and they can decide whether that is a problem for their business or company.</strong> And if the govt sees these things as necessities, it should provide it/subsidize it directly. This is where the mandate will fall apart. A previous lawsuit resulted in the Religious Freedom Restoration Act which states the “Government shall not substantially burden a person’s exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability.” Basically, if something infringes someone's religious rights, even if it is a general, widespread practice, the govt should provide for it directly rather than force someone to behave against their conscience.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

This x100. I don't think anything should be mandated of an employer other than minimum wage and a safe work environment. If you treat your staff like crap, you'll have turnover (or even worse..nobody who wants to work for you) and that'll cost you even more money.

It just irks me that birth contol is 100% free, but other things that are just as necessary as everyone is claiming bc to be have huge copays. I had to have a legally mandated STD test at my 12 week appointment even though I assured them (with 110% confidence) that I have no STDs. I got tested after my bad years in college and I know that H is clean. Even though it was a legally mandated test, I STILL HAVE TO PAY A COPAY on it. It's crap! I can't even opt out at this point. Or my $400 visit just to get a freaking IV when I was dehydrated. How logical is it that apparently a woman's monthly birth control is more important than me staying hydrated while pregnant?

Riss91 · February 2013

monkey - this is why the govt should offer it on the side.

While I think universal healthcare (as in: everyone gets their health coverage from the govt) is an awful idea, I fully support the govt offering a subsidized health care option. This way, the govt can cover whatever the heck it wants, and try to make it affordable, and employers/insurance companies can offer other options.

That would solve so many problems!

monkeysip · February 2013

I just think that having the dual system doesn't work (private and public). My mom's medicaid is horrible. Almost no doctors around us will take it anymore, and they always get treated differently.

It's not like we're talking about really elective procedures either. We're talking about basic healthcare... and those who can't afford private insurance are second class citizens. I think both systems are broken in the US, that's why I'd get rid of insurance altogether.

agapecarrie · February 2013

nationalized healthcare is awful. I've got friend's in Australia and Canada-- its horrible. They still end up paying way more with no choice of docs long waiting lists, and deaths due to those waiting lists.

Riss91 · February 2013

Lived in AUS for a bit - and it wasn't great... I also don't like the govt deciding who is "more deserving of" surgery for a cancerous tumor. Had a friend whose aunt passed away at 50 bc she didn't receive treatment in time - she was lower on the list due to her age.

I don't see why a privatized system with a govt option won't work. Especially if it is taken out of the umbrella of employment benefits. In fact, in an advanced Public Finance course I took we proved that it would work (as in: be more efficient, fair and ethical). Most fascinating course I took.

monkeysip · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:0d152b2e-8d98-4b33-b15b-379b87f39c1e">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]Lived in AUS for a bit - and it wasn't great... I also don't like the govt deciding who is "more deserving of" surgery for a cancerous tumor. Had a friend whose aunt passed away at 50 bc she didn't receive treatment in time - she was lower on the list due to her age. I don't see why a privatized system with a govt option won't work. Especially if it is taken out of the umbrella of employment benefits. <strong>In fact, in an advanced Public Finance course I took we proved that it would work (as in: be more efficient, fair and ethical). </strong>Most fascinating course I took.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

No offense, Riss, but I think this is naive. A lot of classes "prove" a lot of economic theories. What about in real life situations for an entire nation?

Also, private companies do the same thing... decide who is more "deserving". Both private and gov't insurance currently does this. It's not different under universal healthcare. And some systems work better than others. I used Canada as one of the more successful models.

Obviously no system is perfect, I just think ours is beyond repair. There's no reason for costs to be so incredible in the US. And gov't subsidizing these private insurance companies only worsens the problem to me.

Ajuliana · February 2013

I'm sorry, one gal up top said birth controls are abortive, but my question is...if regular birth control keeps you from ovulating, which prevents anything from being available for fertilization, how is that abortive?

I'm not a perfect Catholic, I understand, but I honestly was taught horrible, incorrect things about sexuality and basic biology in Catholic school, to the point where my friends and my younger sisters friends were told it's safer to have unprotected sex than to use PP condoms because those are inferior quality. At one point, my sisters asked me "how" sex happens.

Maybe people shouldn't use preventative measures, but I don't know if I can get behind misinformation just to achieve my preferred outcome of people not using those measures.

MedStudent13 · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:664e64ad-11c2-4dbc-aae3-d6e76a477b5c">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm sorry, one gal up top said birth controls are abortive, but my question is...if regular birth control keeps you from ovulating, which prevents anything from being available for fertilization, how is that abortive? I'm not a perfect Catholic, I understand, but I honestly was taught horrible, incorrect things about sexuality and basic biology in Catholic school, to the point where my friends and my younger sisters friends were told it's safer to have unprotected sex than to use PP condoms because those are inferior quality. At one point, my sisters asked me "how" sex happens. Maybe people shouldn't use preventative measures, but I don't know if I can get behind misinformation just to achieve my preferred outcome of people not using those measures.
Posted by Alaynajuliana[/QUOTE]

<div>The main mechanism that hormonal birth control uses to prevent pregnancy is to suppress ovulation, however the secondary mechanism (call it a fail safe should ovulation occur) is to prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus.
<div>I would be curious about what exactly you learned that was incorrect about sexuality and biology. I think that we've all been told at numerous times by our peers that what we know about NFP is false, but then when they have difficulty concieving have no problems with the science behind it.</div><div>As to your sisters asking about "how sex happens," I'm pretty sure we all asked that before. Not everyone has to learn that in sex ed. </div></div>

agapecarrie · February 2013

The thing about "sex education" in catholic schools, is that they were leaving that up to the parents to do the educating of their children, and the religious education was meant to be a reinforcement of what is taught at home.

agapecarrie · February 2013

ALL hormonal birth control has the potential to be abortive. It happens more than people think with the pill. Several types of hormonal birth control uses abortion as the main way it works.

s-aries8990 · February 2013

I have close friend with PCOS and BC is used as a hormone therapy treatment for her symptoms. It can be a "medicine".

meltoine · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:79997d37-464f-4e98-9264-3e1b7ba28456">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]It is because the law can only regulate behavior, not intent. You don't believe in hormonal BC, so you don't want insurance for your small business to cover it. A local shop owner here is a follower of Christian Science. She does not believe in invasive medical procedures of any kind, including blood transfusions, even in order to save a life. So, should she have the right to refuse for her insurance to cover a blood transfusion or major surgery for one of her employees who does not have the same religion? Should the gas station owner down the street be allowed to not cover pap smears for his female employees because he doesn't believe in them? THAT is the issue. If we do it for one, we have to do it for all.
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]

The other thing not being address about this line of thinking is this: blood transfusions and pap smears only affect the patient. One of the Church's main problems with BC is that it can be abortifacient. This is killing a defenseless human being. There is not a second person's life involved in a pap smear or blood transfusion. As a catholic, I'm more concerned about protecting that second life. What other adults choose to do with their life and their health is not for me to get involved in, other than lovingly showing them the beauty of the Church's POV. But when we're talking about protecting the life of another human being who doesn't get a choice in the matter, I'm getting a lot more involved in that case.

professorscience · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:ca817dc9-cb98-42d7-913f-1b4ff6a9777a">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]I have close friend with PCOS and BC is used as a hormone therapy treatment for her symptoms. It can be a "medicine".
Posted by sydaries[/QUOTE]

<div>Yeah, but it's not always the best medicine. There's a few ladies here who have treated PCOS using methods other than hormonal birth control. An interesting point someone brought up one of the times we discussed this was that birth control doesn't actually TREAT PCOS, it just covers up the symptoms. Don't we deserve an actual treatment for an incredibly painful disorder?</div><div>
</div><div>I was recently talking with a friend of mine who is a new mom about her troubles conceiving. She had endometriosis, and I think PCOS. Her doctor put her on birth control to, as he said, "get her regular enough to have a baby." So then she was just waiting for the doctor to tell her, "Okay, you're good -- get off the pill now and go for it." I remember thinking, "Really? Preventing her fertility is giving you a good idea of how fertile she is?"</div>

agapecarrie · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:ca817dc9-cb98-42d7-913f-1b4ff6a9777a">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]I have close friend with PCOS and BC is used as a hormone therapy treatment for her symptoms. It can be a "medicine".
Posted by sydaries[/QUOTE]

<div>The pill is the absolute worst thing for PCOS. It isn't "hormone therapy". It is shutting down the hormones and putting fake chemicals in the body to fool the body. Doesn't treat or fix anything.</div><div>
</div><div>I had PCOS- I chart, bring to my napro doctor. He does some tests on blood sugar and hormones to confirm- it's treated with metformin. I'm now to a point where I can get off the metformin. </div><div>
</div><div>Also charting, found symptoms of PMS-- depression too. Many women go on prozac-- instead, I went on a natural progesterone at the correct time of my cycle (which I have to chart in order to know), and that fixed all those problems. </div><div>
</div><div>
</div><div>
</div>

s-aries8990 · February 2013

Huh, I didn't know all of that... Just thought I'd throw it into the ring...

professorscience · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:7226fa35-5f69-4c4c-aba9-d64c56095a64">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]Huh, I didn't know all of that... Just thought I'd throw it into the ring...
Posted by sydaries[/QUOTE]

<div>I don't think a lot of women (or even most doctors) do. Even if it helps, birth control pills are just a temporary fix. I'm always amazed at how little women know about their own bodies whenever NFP comes up.</div><div>
</div><div>It's really encouraging to see more and more OB/GYNS lean toward NFP. Not because I'm some militant Catholic who wants to set fire to all forms of hormonal birth control (although I guess that would be okay), but because I think it's crazy that we don't actually treat so many of the fertility issues that exist!</div>

Riss91 · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:9e68ec9e-dba6-4533-a1d0-34b46a4e5554">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall... : No offense, Riss, but I think this is naive. A lot of classes "prove" a lot of economic theories. What about in real life situations for an entire nation? Also, private companies do the same thing... decide who is more "deserving". Both private and gov't insurance currently does this. It's not different under universal healthcare. And some systems work better than others. I used Canada as one of the more successful models. Obviously no system is perfect, I just think ours is beyond repair. There's no reason for costs to be so incredible in the US. And gov't subsidizing these private insurance companies only worsens the problem to me.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

Obviously, I don't think a class is the same as real world practice. We discussed economic and financial theories and put them to work mathematically, given different scenarios

The general idea is that costs are inflated when the consumer/user doesn't have direct access. The consumer doesn't have direct access if the private insurance companies, (through the employers) are basically hiding the costs of healthcare to the consumer. No one knows what it should cost to get an annual physical, to have an appendix removed, to get an MRI, etc. The consumer also doesn't have direct access in a universal system. Andf it is irrelevant in a unviersal system bc the govt decides the prices.

If you combine the private health insurance option, but strip it down so that the consumer can see and "shop around" for doctors/practices that don't price gouge, the market can start to shift to better, more affordable health care. With a govt option, the govt will need to work with the healthcare industry to get the costs down for the consumer. So, if your private insurance company isn't the best option, you'll go to the govt plan. If enough people do that, the private companies will start working with healthcare providers to get the costs down.

The consumer needs to have direct access to make conscious decisions and the costs will come down. The reason they can keep rising is because they are "hidden".

Riss91 · February 2013

The point of me mentioning the course was to explain that I was speaking with some other background than just a hunch. I realize studying economics and finance in college and even taking a course specific to govt and public programs doesn't mean I can predict what would happen if we try them out in the real world. But understanding markets and consumer and economic trends is useful if not crucial to this topic. I find it a bit rude to call me naive for utilizing my education to work through possibile solutions to a major problem. And I guess I still don't see how having a universal healthcare type option, while allowing those who'd prefer to go private the ability to do so isn't a better option. Best if both worlds, if you ask me.

lalaith50 · February 2013

<span style="font-size:11px;line-height:14px;">[QUOTE]I'm sorry, one gal up top said birth controls are abortive, but my question is...if regular birth control keeps you from ovulating, which prevents anything from being available for fertilization, how is that abortive? </span>
Posted by Alaynajuliana[/QUOTE]<div>I've gotten into internet debates about this before, as some people claim that this is NOT how BC works, and I am not a scientist, nor do I know medically how BC works other than what the interwebs tell me, but a quick google search brings up several pages that basically admit the same thing:</div><div>for example</div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/how-do-birth-control-pills-work">http://goaskalice.columbia.edu/how-do-birth-control-pills-work</a></div><div>So basically, the estrogen prevents ovulation, and progestin (among other things) "makes uterine lining inhospitable to fertilized egg." You can get BC available either as just the progestin (less effective,) or as a "combo," which is "more effective," but as you can see, BOTH kinds contains the progestin that <strong>prevents implantation of a fertilized egg.</strong> That is what is considered abortive.</div><div>(ETA: the point being... the "preventing of implantation" is a "back-up" measure, but that is a good enough reason to consider it "abortive.")

</div>

lalaith50 · February 2013

is my font coming up weird to anyone else? it seems really tiny... I didnt do anything to it, I promise! :-o

ETA... hmm... maybe that's just when I quote people...

NariaD · February 2013

In Response to Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...:

I just want to disagree with this from a real-life perspective. I've had irregular cycles on and off my entire adult life. Several OBGYNs recommended BC, and I declined due to my moral convictions.

I was diagnosed with a pre-cancerous uterine condition that would have been prevented had I taken the BC to regulate my cycle. I'm now facing a long journey of infertility and an increased risk of uterine cancer.

I am now on a progesterone-only persription to combat the proliferation of my endometrial lining. It's going to bring my cycle to a screeching hault for two months. I'm ok with that if it means that I can dodge cancer and keep my uterus in hopes of growing our family in the future.

Just my .02

agapecarrie · February 2013

Naria

"Real life" perspective is also mine...Mine was real life, not just theory. I have had several issues that were found from charting. ONE is symptoms of pre-cancerous problems. The pill does not help this at all.

I'm sorry, but the pill is the absolute worst thing for the conditions you described. Most doctors prescribe it like candy, it causes cancer, it does not prevent it. Most docs have only been taught about the pill to "treat" things, and do not have the understanding of the deeper issues I've mentioned.

PLEASE find a NAPRO doctor who will find the cause of your problems and not just medicate symptoms.

You can find them at www.omsoul.com http://www.popepaulvi.com/

chelseamb11 · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:51aa24dd-74f3-41e8-ad97-d4aafecfe4c3">Re:I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]Sorry I'm so late in responding after my initial post, but I wanted to say that I DO agree there is no reason for it to not have a copay like every other prescription. I think moving it's classification down so that it was mandatory for insurance to cover it with a copay would have been just fine. However, the idea that pregnancy isn't a medical condition is also a belief rooted in religion, so it DOES have a practical application in that sense, as well as many other cases where a low dose OC is the best method of hormone therapy. Where I get sideways with people is when they claim that it shouldn't be allowed or shouldn't be treated the same as any other standard prescription. I don't take antibiotics if I can help it. They do a lot more harm to your body than people realize and are prescribed far more often than necessary. That doesn't give me the right to expect the law to adhere to my beliefs, KWIM?
Posted by StageManager14[/QUOTE]

I'm very much picking up what you're putting down.
I think the biggest problem here is people are having a hard time deciphering the difference of "my employer won't pay for this for me!" and "my employer won't let me have this!"
I read an article somewhere (I'll have to find it) that gave one example that adding birth control to a certain employer's plan aveeraged out to $1.43 per employee per month. So in the grand scheme of things, not a lot of money. Obviously it will vary from employer to employer based on a ton of factors, so the amount could change a bit. What would be nice is finding that compromise where if someone wants to make the choice to have that bc coverage, THEY pay that difference instead of the employer. As of right now, birth control isn't illegal. While I don't agree with it's use in 99% of the case, I can't tell someone they can't take it when it's not even illegal. If people paid that few dollar difference for themselves (heck even if it's $10/20 a month! much cheaper than the shelf price of these drugs), it would be the best of both worlds. Nobody is forced to pay for something for another person that they are religiously opposed to, but the person who has the legal right to that drug/treatment will still be able to get it at a cost effective rate. (And this could apply to anything...if I worked for a someone who refused to cover blood transfusions because of their religion, I would never expect them to pay for it, but I'd gladly pay the difference in insurance to cover it)

thejucheidea · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:d7f7ac7f-23ee-4aa2-99d9-56775eec4cf6">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall... : Or my $400 visit just to get a freaking IV when I was dehydrated. How logical is it that apparently a woman's monthly birth control is more important than me staying hydrated while pregnant?
Posted by chelseamb11[/QUOTE]
So an ER visit which would include front desk staff to check you in, registrars to communicate with your insurance company regarding coverage, a triage nurse to get information from you, a doctor to examine you and determine plan of care, and an ER nurse to start the line on you, hang the fluids, monitor you during the infusion and disconnect you at the end should cost the same as something that involves taking something off of the shelf, validating it's correct, and handing it to you?

You're paying for the manpower, not the fluids themselves. The actual fluid being injected into your veins does not cost $400, but if you picked it up from the pharmacy yourself, how would you actually get it into your body?

lalaith50 · February 2013

<span style="font-size:11px;line-height:14px;">[QUOTE]In Response to Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall... : So an ER visit which would include front desk staff to check you in, registrars to communicate with your insurance company regarding coverage, a triage nurse to get information from you, a doctor to examine you and determine plan of care, and an ER nurse to start the line on you, hang the fluids, monitor you during the infusion and disconnect you at the end should cost the same as something that involves taking something off of the shelf, validating it's correct, and handing it to you? You're paying for the manpower, not the fluids themselves. The actual fluid being injected into your veins does not cost $400, but if you picked it up from the pharmacy yourself, how would you actually get it into your body?</span>
Posted by ahstillwell[/QUOTE]<div>The point is, saving someone from dehydration is possibly a life or death situation, whereas the alternative to birth control is a little bit of self-control. Shouldn't what is medically covered by health insurance be based more in *importance*?
</div>

thejucheidea · February 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_i-feel-like-im-banging-my-head-against-a-wall?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:54f388d2-0a3f-4427-9960-e2d04b99159dPost:7b662bd9-2113-4c64-961b-75b7760c8b19">Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...</a>:
[QUOTE]The point is, saving someone from dehydration is possibly a life or death situation, whereas the alternative to birth control is a little bit of self-control. Shouldn't what is medically covered by health insurance be based more in *importance*?
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

Health insurance should cover a lot of things that it doesn't -- I'm a nurse, so I'm aware of that fact. I've had to have a lot of conversations with insurance companies to get vital medication for patients, and that sucks, but the point is that when you go for a TREATMENT, it's going to be more expensive than picking up MEDICATION from a pharmacy. Saying that a treatment should be 100% covered while a medication shouldn't be covered is like comparing apples to oranges -- it makes no sense at all.

I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...

Re: I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall...

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