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Snarky Brides

very odd but possibly controversial question...

Background: In a special ed meeting, discussing kids transferring to high school, I mentioned a student who is struggling with his sexuality (this was brought to me by his parents, who happen to be gay men, the child in question is adopted and is also an identical twin). Anyways, it came up because I was sharing some of the emotional issues he was dealing with and the teacher from the high school asked if his brother has been dealing with the same issues (sexuality) and I said no and she asked if the twins were identical or fraternal, I said identical and she said "well then he will be too..."

This got me thinking. I do believe homosexuality is a chemical thing, in that I don't believe it is a choice someone makes, but if it is indeed chemical then it is genetic (yes?, no?) and then since identical twins share exactly the same DNA I guess (????) what she said would be true, and yet, it rubbed me the wrong way/surprised me/made me think about it.

Any thoughts? I don't know why but I never presumed that if one of the boys was gay the other had to be, even though I do believe homosexuality to be a 'chemical (is this the right term?) thing rather than something just chooses (and hence can unchoose).

K, I am rambling...and this is a P&R.
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Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...

  • edited May 2011
    I actually know two identically twin brothers: one is gay, the other is straight. 
    I have known them for about 10 years. 

    It is sort of the Nature vs. Nurture argument...  but with twins having the as close to the same nature as possible, and presumeably as close to the same nurture as possible it is interesting to say the least. 
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  • edited May 2011
    I disagree.

    I went to high school with identical twin boys, and one of them was gay while the other wasn't.

    I don't know if it's chemical, genetic, mental, whatever - I don't like labels like that.  No one needs to explain to me why I'm straight, so I don't understand why we need to figure out why people are gay.  They just are.
    panther
  • K&J64K&J64 member
    1000 Comments
    Interesting question, I had never thought about it. I did a little research and found this online:

    "The DNA of Identical twins are not 100% identical. Research has found that identical twins differ in how their genes express themselves. One may develop the rapid aging disorder progeria while the other may not. Scientists have learned that identical twins may slightly differ genetically from their twin.

    In a twin study, identical twins are compared to fraternal twins because the genetic makeup, while not being 100% identical, has more similarities than that of fraternal twins. If something happens more often in identical twins, then that something is influenced by genes.

    Identical twins have the same sexual orientation approximately 60% of the time. If they are fraternal twins it happens approximately 16% of the time.

    The 1952 Kallmann study found the correlation to be 100% for identical twins and 15% for fraternal twins; the 1968 Heston & Shields study found the correlation to be 50% for identical twins and 14% for fraternal twins; the 1991 Buhrich, Bailey, & Martin study found the correlation to be 47% for identical twins and 0% for fraternal twins; the 1991 Bailey & Pillard study found the correlation to be 52% for identical twins and 22% for fraternal twins; the 1993 Whitam, Diamond, & the Martin study found the correlation to be 65% for identical twins and 29% for fraternal twins. In a study exclusively with lesbian identical twins, the 1993 Bailey, Pillard, Neale, & Agyei study found the correlation to be 48% for identical twins and 16% for fraternal twins.

    The 2008 Finnish twin study (Santtila P, Sandnabba NK, Harlaar N, Varjonen M, Alanko K, von der Pahlen B.) reported the potential to engage in homosexual behavior was influenced by genetic effects for both men (37.4%) and women (46.4%).

    A 2006 scientific study has shown that when environment is compared to genetics, it does not play a significant role. The study said that researchers have known for years that a man's likelihood of being gay rises with the number of older biological brothers, but the new study found that the so-called "fraternal birth order effect" persists even if gay men were raised away from their biological families. Anthony F. Bogaert, Ph.D., professor at Brock University, said "The research suggests that the development of sexual orientation is influenced before birth." The older-brother effect was constant regardless of whether the men were raised with natural, adopted or stepbrothers. It also didn't matter if they weren't raised with their biological mothers. If gay younger brothers and older brothers don't have the same home environments, what do they have in common? "They shared the same uterus, the same womb, the same mother," Bogaert said."

    Source(s):


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  • I do believe, as you do, that is it is something you cannot choose, but I don't know that, just because one technically shares DNA with someone else that both of those individuals will turn out the same. I believe there is DNA, but there are other chemicals, hormones, etc that can act differently, even if you have the same DNA. I'm not sure why someone would make the assumption that it's definitely going to turn out the same in both twins. I'm not being very eloquent here, but that's what I think.
  • AATB...crap, I could have done some research, but yeah, I didn't.  Okay, that kind of means there is pretty much nothing to discuss here...thread fail.
  • K&J64K&J64 member
    1000 Comments
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:e1de2dd4-06fd-4bb8-8afd-52ff7405a817">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]I disagree. I went to high school with identical twin boys, and one of them was gay while they other wasn't. I don't know if it's chemical, genetic, mental, whatever - I don't like labels like that.  <strong>No one needs to explain to me why I'm straight, so I don't understand why we need to figure out why people are gay.  They just are.
    </strong>Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

    I have told you lately that I <3 you?

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  • edited May 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:e1de2dd4-06fd-4bb8-8afd-52ff7405a817">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]  No one needs to explain to me why I'm straight, so I don't understand why we need to figure out why people are gay.  They just are.
    Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

    <div>I do agree with that 100%. I guess that is why I struggled with the word 'chemical'...all I could really express is that I don't believe it to be a choice.</div> Edit: and by 'it' I mean sexuality as a whole. I don't believe that our attraction to people is something we choose.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:07c2dc2b-e4d6-4509-abb9-597278d45c41">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: very odd but possibly controversial question... : I have told you lately that I <3 you?
    Posted by kcullen37[/QUOTE]

    Probably, because, I am awesome.  :)

    I  <3 you too!
    panther
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:d9d11ca1-29d3-452b-8725-4128e8cad0f2">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: very odd but possibly controversial question... : I do agree with that 100%. I guess that is why I struggled with the word 'chemical'...all I could really express is that I don't believe it to be a choice.
    Posted by number55[/QUOTE]

    I don't believe it to be a choice, either.  It is what it is ;)
    panther
  • K&J64K&J64 member
    1000 Comments
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:217cbe02-a534-4384-8be7-bba5b33df6d2">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: very odd but possibly controversial question... : Probably, because, I am awesome.  :) I  <3 you too!
    Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

    And modest too ;)

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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:b63b2ffc-bbae-4fed-968e-ea25f2bd2625">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: very odd but possibly controversial question... : I don't believe it to be a choice, either.  It is what it is ;)
    Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

    Exactly.  Everytime I get into this arguement with people, I ask them "okay then...when did you CHOOSE to be straight?  You didn't, right?  So what makes you think someone just chose to be gay?"
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  • edited May 2011
    I am going to pipe in here and say it is in some cases a choice to be "gay". I knew several women/men who would be with other women/men for show or just because they were tired of the other sex.

    To actually have that connection I don't think you have a choice in the matter. I have known two identical twins girls in HS and one is straight one is now happily married to another woman :) I don't think sharing DNA is a determaning factor on preference. They like different foods, they react to meds differently and their sexuality went both directions.

    EDIT: I am saying like months - year relationships for the "choice" situation.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:f74ef068-d911-45a2-a023-85b0b7db44b5">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: very odd but possibly controversial question... : Exactly.  Everytime I get into this arguement with people, I ask them "okay then...when did you CHOOSE to be straight?  You didn't, right?  So what makes you think someone just chose to be gay?"
    Posted by jemmini6[/QUOTE]

    There are people out there who hate, with every fiber of their being, homosexuals and they discriminate against them constantly.  I don't think people would just decide to subject themselves to that kind of hatred because they just felt like it.  You don't go through something like that just because you want to.  You do it because you love someone.
    panther
  • My former professor for my psych indergrad degree was doing research on this topic. Her research was on homosexual sheep (rams). They invariably chose to try to mate with other rams, even when ewes who were in heat were present in the same pen.
    Then, she humanely euthanized them, disected their brains and found physiological differences compared to non homosexual rams, as well as hormonal differences in their blood samples when compared ot rams who chose to mate with ewes (straight rams). Her research was fascinating, and part of the growing body of research from may different fields providing very sound scientific evidence that sexuality is biologically based in genetics, brain development during gestation, and hormones (hormones affect the brain during gestation). 
    Studies have also shown hormonal difference during gestation of babies who turn out to be homosexual adults...suggesting there is a very strong link, and it is not a "choice" just like it is never a conscious choice for someone to be straight! 

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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:b24a0fd7-1d7f-461e-9233-e98e74861a1d">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]I am going to pipe in here and say it is in some cases a choice to be "gay". I knew several women/men who would be with other women/men for show or just because they were tired of the other sex. To actually have that connection I don't think you have a choice in the matter. Posted by undyingmizery[/QUOTE]

    I don't think the fact that these persons are attracted to the opposite sex is the same as when they make a choice to act upon that attraction. Someone can be biologicall homosexual and always attracted to the opposite sex, but never make the "choice" to act upon those desires. But they did not choose their sexuality/preference.
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  • mica178mica178 member
    5000 Comments Fourth Anniversary 5 Love Its
    I think there's definitely a bit of both nature and nuture in sexuality, just as there is for obesity, diabetes, heart disease and cancer.

    undyingmizery -- do you really think people get "tired" of one sex of people and move onto the other?  If anything, I can see people being tired of "keeping up appearances" and "switching," but I doubt that happened out of boredom or fatigue.
  • Wrkn925Wrkn925 member
    2500 Comments 5 Love Its
    I don't think your reaction/questioning/pug head tilt was bad.

    It is something to consider.  I have lots of gay friends. (Just like every other straight person says.) And I just say I don't know. I don't think I chose to be attracted to men, I don't think Mom buying me a wedding Barbie and Ken made me straight, I just don't know. And I don't know why they are gay.  It's not really any of my business.

    I took a Cultural Diversity class in college that had a lot of literature on this.  There was a question list that had all the 'Why are you gay?" questions reversed for heterosexuals.  I wish I still had that.  Unfortunately, I had a coworker that wanted to read it and she bailed out of town in the middle of the night.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:b019ef3b-5d74-4236-8537-74b271b49077">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]I think there's definitely a bit of both nature and nuture in sexuality, just as there is for obesity, diabetes, heart disease and cancer. undyingmizery -- do you really think people get "tired" of one sex of people and move onto the other?  If anything, I can see people being tired of "keeping up appearances" and "switching," but I doubt that happened out of boredom or fatigue.
    Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

    Not boredom ,switch due to being hurt too many times. Yes I worded it wrong sorry.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:5de4128e-1db8-49c5-839d-56ce21b0e446">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]. And I don't know why they are gay.  It's not really any of my business. I took a Cultural Diversity class in college that had a lot of literature on this.  <strong>There was a question list that had all the <u>'Why are you gay?" questions reversed for heterosexuals</u>.  I wish I still had that.</strong>  Unfortunately, I had a coworker that wanted to read it and she bailed out of town in the middle of the night.
    Posted by Wrkn925[/QUOTE]

    As a PP alluded to, or said, in order to answer this question, all I think a straight person has to do is ask themselves: "why am I straight?" There's your answer!
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:84c5242b-afad-4152-9997-864743fce3dd">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: very odd but possibly controversial question... : Not boredom ,switch due to being hurt too many times. Yes I worded it wrong sorry.
    Posted by undyingmizery[/QUOTE]

    Oh, like an "I'm sick of men - I'm now a lesbian" thing?  Because sure, there are probably people out there who do it.  I don't think they're actually GAY, though.  At best, bi-sexual or just bored perhaps.

    Personally, I don't know how lesbians do it.  I don't get along well with most women to begin with, I can't imagine being romantically involved with one.  Chicks.  We're such needy broads, you know? 

    ...Of course, I kid :)
    panther
  • mica178mica178 member
    5000 Comments Fourth Anniversary 5 Love Its
    Oh, well, in that case, yes, that's part of the nurture aspect of sexuality.  I'll counter and say that I know plenty of girls and guys who have been hurt horribly repeatedly by the opposite sex who never "switch" sides, so I think there is a nature aspect to it all.  But I'll ditto AATB and say that I don't know what's the fuss over trying to find the root cause of homosexuality any more than finding it for heterosexuality or bisexuality.  Sexuality just is. 

    (Also, I worry that if we ever found the genetic factor that made a person more likely to be gay, some people would want to look for a "cure" or try to selectively abort fetuses that have that gene.)
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:5a4aeacd-f443-4817-b257-ff7f3beb6fa9">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]Oh, well, in that case, yes, that's part of the nurture aspect of sexuality.  I'll counter and say that I know plenty of girls and guys who have been hurt horribly repeatedly by the opposite sex who never "switch" sides, so I think there is a nature aspect to it all.  But I'll ditto AATB and say that I don't know what's the fuss over trying to find the root cause of homosexuality any more than finding it for heterosexuality or bisexuality.  Sexuality just is. <strong> (Also, I worry that if we ever found the genetic factor that made a person more likely to be gay, some people would want to look for a "cure" or try to selectively abort fetuses that have that gene.)</strong>
    Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

    That's a fairly frightening thought.
    panther
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:b019ef3b-5d74-4236-8537-74b271b49077">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]I think there's definitely a bit of both nature and nuture in sexuality, just as there is for obesity, diabetes, heart disease and cancer. undyingmizery -- do you really think people get "tired" of one sex of people and move onto the other?  If anything, I can see people being tired of "keeping up appearances" and "switching," but I doubt that happened out of boredom or fatigue.
    Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

    I disagree.  Things like obesity, heart disease, etc can be genetically predisposed and your lifesyle choices can affect whether or not it happens to you.  I don't think that one is predisposed to homosexuality and then 'fall into it' based on their lifestyle choices.

    If that were the case, then people who grow up in tolerant households would be more likely to be gay and those who grew up in bigoted households would never be gay.  Those 'nurture' tendencies can make it easier or harder to come out, but that doesn't mean that they aren't gay regardless.
    Anniversary
  • I do not think that it's a choice. I think that some people might be bored and might make the choice to be with people that are of the same sex, but that doesn't necessarily make them gay. I also think that's pretty rare.

    I think that it is a combination of nature vs. nuture. Someone can be genetically inclined for something but it not develop because the environmental conditions are different. I do think that in many cases, nature plays a larger role than nuture.

    I also think that people sometimes have a scewed understanding of genetics from high school or introductory college courses. People learn about the "easy" genes like whether or not you have hitchikers thumb, or whether you can roll your tongue or not, etc. Simple dominant and recessive genes. Some people learn about sex-linked genes or more complicated traits like height or skin color. But I think that this gives a lot of people a view of genetics that is highly oversimplified. Just because you have a gene does not mean that you will express it. There is also huge research being done now into the effect of epigenetics.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:e1de2dd4-06fd-4bb8-8afd-52ff7405a817">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]I don't know if it's chemical, genetic, mental, whatever - I don't like labels like that.  No one needs to explain to me why I'm straight, so I don't understand why we need to figure out why people are gay.  They just are.
    Posted by AllAboutTheBenjamin[/QUOTE]

    <div>
    </div><div>AATB FTW!  I have a major crush on you right now.</div>
  • mica178mica178 member
    5000 Comments Fourth Anniversary 5 Love Its
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:b642168b-2480-4038-a308-ea26a9c19289">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: very odd but possibly controversial question... : I disagree.  Things like obesity, heart disease, etc can be genetically predisposed and your lifesyle choices can affect whether or not it happens to you.  I don't think that one is predisposed to homosexuality and then 'fall into it' based on their lifestyle choices. If that were the case, then people who grow up in tolerant households would be more likely to be gay and those who grew up in bigoted households would never be gay.  Those 'nurture' tendencies can make it easier or harder to come out, but that doesn't mean that they aren't gay regardless.
    Posted by jemmini6[/QUOTE]

    I think you're misunderstanding what nurture is.  It's not just growing up in an accepting or bigoted household.  It's things like the relationships a person witnesses or experiences, abuse, upbringing. 
  • The only people to blame for rampant homosexuality are the straight people who keep giving birth to them! Or so says one of my favorite cousins. He and his younger brother are both gay, and I love that their parents are so accepting, even though others in the family are not. And they have been gay all their lives. I've known even before I had a word for it. THey are who they are and always have been. 

    I know tons of identical twins that have totally different personalities, so while their DNA may be the same, and they came out of the same little sac at birth, their brain chemistries must have changed as they got older. I don't think DNA determines EVERYTHING about a person. There are lots of things that can change as we go, even if we have the same building blocks. Now, a scientist may disagree, but that's my little non-scientific opinion.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:50f0f108-c38a-408a-8569-f56a7406e086">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: very odd but possibly controversial question... : I think you're misunderstanding what nurture is.  It's not just growing up in an accepting or bigoted household.  It's things like the relationships a person witnesses or experiences, abuse, upbringing. 
    Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

    I know what it is, that was just a very vague example.  All I'm saying though, is I really don't think it has to do nurture at all.  I think if you are gay, you will be gay no matter what goes on around you, just as if you are straight, you will be straight. 

    Saying that being gay is a case of nature vs nurture is like saying one is wrong and one is right (or normal or abnormal).  Just because people in this world have brown eyes, it doesn't mean there's anything abnormal with you if you have blue eyes...it's just not the norm. 
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  • Saying that being gay from nature vs. nuture isn't saying one is bad or one is good at all. Here is an example. Someone may be genetically very intelligent. But the nuture aspect may determine whether they are more into math/science or the humanities. Both are equally as good. Just because nuture plays a role doesn't mean that one is bad and one is good.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_very-odd-but-possibly-controversial-question?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:e4c79df0-922f-457f-ad92-4cd8e6ceae66Post:f3604e93-fcef-4ad1-8720-a17080fa90e3">Re: very odd but possibly controversial question...</a>:
    [QUOTE]Saying that being gay from nature vs. nuture isn't saying one is bad or one is good at all. Here is an example. Someone may be genetically very intelligent. But the nuture aspect may determine whether they are more into math/science or the humanities. Both are equally as good. Just because nuture plays a role doesn't mean that one is bad and one is good.
    Posted by OutOfTheBlue612[/QUOTE]

    I don't think nurture really plays into that either.  That is left brain/right brain kind of stuff.

    Not that it can't, but I like hearing different views on this.  It's nice to have an educational conversation on this topic without people getting too personal about it, which often happens in these touchy subjects.
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