Anti-Catholic BM

16pascoe · August 2011

I have a dear Lutheran friend who mentioned several years ago how much she dislikes the Catholic church because of propaganda she had heard, things that happened in medieval time (absolution in exchange for donations to the church), and misdeeds of priests. About a year ago, before I was engaged, friend was dating a Catholic guy (not anymore), whose religious mother mentioned how friend and her son, would have to get married in a Catholic church if/when the day came. Friend was appalled and ranted about it to me more than once.

Because of this I generally try to avoid talking about Catholicism around her and just opt for the be a good person, lead by example route. She genuinely is a good person.

I haven't formally asked her to be a BM yet, but I want her to be one and she would be hurt if she wasn't. FI and I are both Catholic and having a nuptial mass at our wedding, which will be at least an hour long and friend will probably be either thinking about wanting to roll her eyes or actually rolling her eyes at a lot of the parts of the mass.

My question is, should I have a frank conversation with her about how she is important to me (where I can carefully plan what I'm going to say), but how I don't want to hear a word about her disapproval? OR should I wait for her to do something else that indicates her disapproval and broach the subject then?

Calypso1977 · August 2011

the problem is, she probably wont voice her disapproval until AFTER you ask her to be a BM. cant really retract once its "out there" that you want her in the wedding.

i personally would not ask her. while your WP does not have to be catholic, they shoudl support you and your sacrament. if they are going to show ill will toward the church, then they can be a spectator rather than an active participant.

you coudl always get around this too by just asking family. then you can honestly say that you wanted your WP to be family, small, etc.

go with your gut on this. if you sense its going to be an issue, it probably will be. best to avoid it.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

That is a really hard situation to be in. Maybe you could just feel it out by going out to lunch with her and talk to her about the Catholic marriage process, etc. How she responds will give you a good idea if her angst with the church is higher on the list than supporting her friend (you). If she rolls her eyes and whatnot, tell her that you understand her feelings, but that your faith/religion is very important to you. Explain that you don't expect her to believe the same things as you, but she could be respectful of your beliefs. If she still has an attitude, maybe just have her be a reader or something? If she's really cool about it, then you'd be safe having her as a BM. But don't ask her to be a BM because you don't want to hurt her feelings. That would cause a lot of problems and resentment.

professorscience · August 2011

I really like Chelsea's advice. No matter what, you want your wedding party to support your marriage. I would hope that, as a friend, she does not show blatant disrespect for your choices (to your face or otherwise), and that she would put her personal problems aside to support you on your wedding day. Or, if she has that much of a problem, that she'd decline your invitation to be a bridesmaid, rather than go through it and then stand there making faces like a petulant teenager.

ElisabethJoanne · August 2011

What kind of Lutheran? Evangelical Lutheran Church in America? Missouri Synod? Wisconsin Synod? I ask because what kind of Lutheran she is will influence how she feels at Mass. What parts of the Mass in particular are you worried about?

I also think you're underestimating your friend. People tend to rise to the occasion for weddings. She may very well get past your religious differences for the day-of, and even the months leading up to the wedding.

Further, if you believe her Lutheran sacraments are invalid, she's a dirty, rotten sinner with no merit, ickier than menstrual cloths and dung heaps. So are all of us without Grace. Her baptism may be valid, but the Church's teaching is other Lutheran sacraments are definitely invalid.

lalaith50 · August 2011

While I agree with the advice given above, I don't think that you should let someone who is too anti-Catholic to be a bridesmaid be a reader in a Catholic church!

agapecarrie · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_anti-catholic-bm?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:60eecf4f-8b6e-4757-bc85-2ea0e3445d67Post:7e04f108-7697-406e-b169-4cef62a5a444">Re: Anti-Catholic BM</a>:
[QUOTE] Further, if you believe her Lutheran sacraments are invalid, she's a dirty, rotten sinner with no merit, ickier than menstrual cloths and dung heaps. So are all of us without Grace. Her baptism may be valid, but the Church's teaching is other Lutheran sacraments are definitely invalid.
Posted by ElisabethJoanne[/QUOTE]

Can you explain what you mean here?

The church believes that protestants have valid baptism and marriage sacraments (even though some protestants don't believe marriage is a sacrament).

Luther believes in the snow covered dung heep, but this is a completely different understanding of the human condition than catholics have. We are created good, twisted by sin, but restored by Christ. We are not utterly depraved.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but I didn't quite undertand they way you stated it.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_anti-catholic-bm?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:60eecf4f-8b6e-4757-bc85-2ea0e3445d67Post:4b18a79b-cab4-4ebd-8301-1026a48830c4">Re: Anti-Catholic BM</a>:
[QUOTE]While I agree with the advice given above, I don't think that you should let someone who is too anti-Catholic to be a bridesmaid be a reader in a Catholic church!
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

Why not? Lutherans follow both testaments of the bible too.
I do agree with PP that you should give her some credit. But do NOT mention you want(ed) her to be a BM until you know for sure you are asking her. Otherwise she will be mad that you told her she was in the running but now isn't.

lalaith50 · August 2011

Chelsea--

well, for starters, because people who read during the Mass are *supposed* to be Catholic (although I know many churches don't follow that, especially at weddings.)

See: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html

133. The reading of Scripture during a Eucharistic celebration in the Catholic Church is to be done by members of that Church. On exceptional occasions and for a just cause, the Bishop of the diocese may permit a member of another Church or ecclesial Community to take on the task of reader.

and it just seems like if someone isn't respectful enough to be a bridesmaid (as the OP was describing,) then why would they be respectful enough to be a reader?

ElisabethJoanne--

yes, I was quite confused also about that paragraph and what you were referring to. The OP didn't say anything about how Lutherans were dirty, rotten, sinners.

(sorry about my formatting.)

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_anti-catholic-bm?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:60eecf4f-8b6e-4757-bc85-2ea0e3445d67Post:b6818864-a98b-4ec5-8a61-04e46e9770c0">Re: Anti-Catholic BM</a>:
[QUOTE]<strong>Chelsea-- well, for starters, because people who read during the Mass are *supposed* to be Catholic (although I know many churches don't follow that, especially at weddings.) See: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html">http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html</a> 133. The reading of Scripture during a Eucharistic celebration in the Catholic Church is to be done by members of that Church. On exceptional occasions and for a just cause, the Bishop of the diocese may permit a member of another Church or ecclesial Community to take on the task of reader. and it just seems like if someone isn't respectful enough to be a bridesmaid (as the OP was describing,) then why would they be respectful enough to be a reader?</strong> ElisabethJoanne-- yes, I was quite confused also about that paragraph and what you were referring to. The OP didn't say anything about how Lutherans were dirty, rotten, sinners. (sorry about my formatting.)
Posted by lalaith50[/QUOTE]

Got it, that part makes sense. I think it's worth talking to the friend about.

16pascoe · August 2011

She may not actually say anthing to me or the day of, she's a pretty good at keeping up appearances, but I'm rather certain she will gripe about having to sit through the mass to her family and friends?

I don't think her particular flavor of Lutheranism is important - I don't actually know why I included that detail.

All that being said, now I'm concerned that my BMs aren't Catholic enough (again, I haven't formally asked anyone yet)? Two BMs (including the MOH) are lapsed Catholics who got married outside of the church, one is an athiest with whom I've had multiple and long, thoughtful conversations about religion, but that I know will be respectful and not gripe (she might actually enjoy it in an anthropological way), and a potential fifth BM (depending on how many GM my FI settles on) is a more recent friend I went to law school with (whereas the others I have been friends with for atleast 7 years) but she is the only faithful, practicing Catholic in the bunch. Is that going to be a problem?

ElisabethJoanne · August 2011

She was born with original sin, and presumably she's sinned since her baptism. That makes her a bad person, not a good person, though "person" is good. There's something in Paul about works done even with goodwill as being as "dirty rags." I can't find it (ah! the perils of being raised in a soup of Bible translations). And there's Jesus, "No one is good but God." Explicitly in my mind, I was paraphrasing and applying St. Augustine of Hippo's anti-Pelagian writings about original and specific sin.

I understand St. Paul's line is literally translated "menstrual cloths," and I think he references dung elsewhere. That's where Luther got it.

St. Thomas Aquinas calls himself "unclean" and "defiled' in his Prayer Before Mass.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_anti-catholic-bm?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:60eecf4f-8b6e-4757-bc85-2ea0e3445d67Post:eb86eb86-6d0e-4f10-ace4-4896fc7e805c">Re: Anti-Catholic BM</a>:
[QUOTE]She may not actually say anthing to me or the day of, she's a pretty good at keeping up appearances, but I'm rather certain she will gripe about having to sit through the mass to her family and friends? I don't think her particular flavor of Lutheranism is important - I don't actually know why I included that detail. All that being said, now I'm concerned that my BMs aren't Catholic enough (again, I haven't formally asked anyone yet)? Two BMs (including the MOH) are lapsed Catholics who got married outside of the church, one is an athiest with whom I've had multiple and long, thoughtful conversations about religion, but that I know will be respectful and not gripe (she might actually enjoy it in an anthropological way), and a potential fifth BM (depending on how many GM my FI settles on) is a more recent friend I went to law school with (whereas the others I have been friends with for atleast 7 years) is the only faithful, practicing Catholic in the bunch. Is that going to be a problem?
Posted by 16pascoe@cua.edu[/QUOTE]

Don't worry about them being Catholic or how Catholic they are. They are there to witness the sacrament, not sponsor it. They are also there to support you. They can support you without being Catholic just as long as they are respectful of your religious beliefs.

lalaith50 · August 2011

ElisabethJoanne--

but why? No one was asking about sin. The OP just wanted to know if we thought it would be inappropriate if her potential bridesmaid is anti-Catholic.

agapecarrie · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_anti-catholic-bm?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:60eecf4f-8b6e-4757-bc85-2ea0e3445d67Post:33e37448-80b6-4839-b934-d23db4561e8b">Re: Anti-Catholic BM</a>:
[QUOTE]She was born with original sin, and presumably she's sinned since her baptism. That makes her a bad person, not a good person, though "person" is good. There's something in Paul about works done even with goodwill as being as "dirty rags." I can't find it (ah! the perils of being raised in a soup of Bible translations). And there's Jesus, "No one is good but God." Explicitly in my mind, I was paraphrasing and applying St. Augustine of Hippo's anti-Pelagian writings about original and specific sin. I understand St. Paul's line is literally translated "menstrual cloths," and I think he references dung elsewhere. That's where Luther got it. St. Thomas Aquinas calls himself "unclean" and "defiled' in his Prayer Before Mass.
Posted by ElisabethJoanne[/QUOTE]
All of these parahrases and quotes are not adding up. Can you quote properly? Especially where Jesus says "no one is good but God"? This is definitely NOT catholic teaching. God doesn't create junk. This is a very basis for the understanding of the human person.

ElisabethJoanne · August 2011

"No one is good but God" is Luke 18:19. I was just countering the whole "good person" thing. It ruffles my feathers. It's not important to this conversation.

I asked the kind of Lutheran because lots of Lutherans also have a Eucharstic/communion service as part of their weddings. Your Nuptial Mass may not trouble or surprise her in its length. Moreover, lots of Lutheran services are actually quite similar to Catholic services for those not trained to look for the differences. But it greatly depends on the kind of Lutheran.

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_anti-catholic-bm?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:60eecf4f-8b6e-4757-bc85-2ea0e3445d67Post:8194ec31-6e49-4487-b337-de4cc5902e23">Re: Anti-Catholic BM</a>:
[QUOTE]"No one is good but God" is Luke 18:19. I was just countering the whole "good person" thing. It ruffles my feathers. It's not important to this conversation. I asked the kind of Lutheran because lots of Lutherans also have a Eucharstic/communion service as part of their weddings. Your Nuptial Mass may not trouble or surprise her in its length. Moreover, lots of Lutheran services are actually quite similar to Catholic services for those not trained to look for the differences. <strong>But it greatly depends on the kind of Lutheran.</strong>
Posted by ElisabethJoanne[/QUOTE]

This is very true. I was an ELCA Lutheran for a long time before I converted. They asked me before I started RCIA which branch I was. I asked why and they said that some are more similar to Catholicism than others.

16pascoe · August 2011

Like I may have said before, I don't actually know what type of Lutheran she is. But I have been to a couple weddings at her church and they were both 30 minutes or less.

Does anyone care to comment on whether I should be proactive in talking to her or wait for to do/say something in the future?

chelseamb11 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_anti-catholic-bm?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:60eecf4f-8b6e-4757-bc85-2ea0e3445d67Post:3c6788f2-d9b4-4125-aa91-5f4973c4c0be">Re: Anti-Catholic BM</a>:
[QUOTE]Like I may have said before, I don't actually know what type of Lutheran she is. But I have been to a couple weddings at her church and they were both 30 minutes or less. Does anyone care to comment on whether I should be proactive in talking to her or wait for to do/say something in the future?
Posted by 16pascoe@cua.edu[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I'd just talk to her in general about the wedding first and feel her out. If she is cool about it, then you'd be safe making her a BM. If she has an attitude, leaev the BM part out of it, but explain to her that it hurts your feelings when she is so disrespectful of your faith. Tell her you don't expect her to believe what you do, but mutual respect is important in a friendship. If she then starts being cool about it, then you're probably good having her as a BM.. if she still has an attitude, then she's better off as a guest.

mica178 · August 2011

OP -- I suggest that you change your user name to something not quite so identifiable if you are going to be questioning your friend's religion. Just a word of warning.

I feel like if you put her on the spot about how she feels about Catholicism, she might feel pressured to say something she does not believe. If I were you, I would decide to have her or not have her as a bridesmaid based on whether or not you want her (a possibly anti-Catholic person) standing by your side at the altar as you exchange vows.

agapecarrie · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_anti-catholic-bm?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:60eecf4f-8b6e-4757-bc85-2ea0e3445d67Post:8194ec31-6e49-4487-b337-de4cc5902e23">Re: Anti-Catholic BM</a>:
[QUOTE]"No one is good but God" is Luke 18:19. I was just countering the whole "good person" thing. It ruffles my feathers. It's not important to this conversation. I asked the kind of Lutheran because lots of Lutherans also have a Eucharstic/communion service as part of their weddings. Your Nuptial Mass may not trouble or surprise her in its length. Moreover, lots of Lutheran services are actually quite similar to Catholic services for those not trained to look for the differences. But it greatly depends on the kind of Lutheran.
Posted by ElisabethJoanne[/QUOTE]

This passage is seriously taken out of context. Jesus is answering someone calling Him good...which of course, we know that He is God, so would be good. If he's refuting this he's making a different point (I dont' have my complete footnotes, but suffice it to say, he's not talking about humans not being good.

CCC 353 talks about the goodness of humans

16pascoe · August 2011

@ mica178

Unfortunately you can't change your user name and I joined the knot several years ago when I was a BM in a friends wedding and now I have a ton of stuff saved under this account, so I'd rather not give it up and make a new one. That email address is super old and it hasn't been active since I was in law school.

mica178 · August 2011

I'd create a new account if you plan on continuing to post on the forums. Use the old account for wedding-related stuff. It's easy enough, and it maintains a bit of anonymity. What if one of your friends (or even the friend in question) creates an account on TK to help with your wedding planning and stumbles across this post?

professorscience · August 2011

Mica's right. Someone on this board also told me some horror story about a jilted ex calling up a girl's venue and cancelling or something. I used to post under my future married name until it dawned on me that my students could probably find me. Slim chance, but a chance I was unwilling to take.

With regards to your friend: if she is as good a friend as you say, I would expect her to be fully supportive of you, regardless of her feelings about catholicism. If, like I said earlier, she is blatantly disrespectful of your religion, she is not a very good friend, and I wouldn't want her up there. I wouldn't think a conversation with her about "how to behave" would even be necessary if she is a good enough friend to be considered a bridesmaid.

ootmother2 · August 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_anti-catholic-bm?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:60eecf4f-8b6e-4757-bc85-2ea0e3445d67Post:053255c4-d7e8-4eaa-94eb-64e1245ee3b9">Re: Anti-Catholic BM</a>:
[QUOTE]Mica's right. Someone on this board also told me some horror story about a jilted ex calling up a girl's venue and cancelling or something. I used to post under my future married name until it dawned on me that my students could probably find me. Slim chance, but a chance I was unwilling to take. With regards to your friend: if she is as good a friend as you say, I would expect her to be fully supportive of you, regardless of her feelings about catholicism. If, like I said earlier, she is blatantly disrespectful of your religion, she is not a very good friend, and I wouldn't want her up there. I wouldn't think a conversation with her about "how to behave" would even be necessary if she is a good enough friend to be considered a bridesmaid.
Posted by professorscience[/QUOTE]

THIS^

I'm sure that both of you are well educated and know the reasons for the split between the Catholic Church and Luther. That really has nothing to do with your frendship unless you intend to argue theology at the wedding!

If she supports you and your marriage, I would just drop discussions about your individual religions. Everyone has the right to their own religious beliefs.

Riss91 · August 2011

I would have the frank conversation. It doesn't have to be confrontational. Something like "You're a great friend, and I really want you to have an important role in our wedding day. I know that you have issues with the Catholic Church and I would feel uncomfortable with having you as a BM if you aren't able to respect my beliefs. I'm not asking for you to believe in them, obviously, but I need to know that you would be comfortable participating in our wedding without criticizing our faith."

I don't think it is necessary to have your wedding party be Catholic - but they should support you. I actually think that it is more important that the readers believe in what they are reading.

Also - this statement was really random and I don't think any Catholic would feel this way:
Further, if you believe her Lutheran sacraments are invalid, she's a dirty, rotten sinner with no merit, ickier than menstrual cloths and dung heaps. So are all of us without Grace. Her baptism may be valid, but the Church's teaching is other Lutheran sacraments are definitely invalid.

blush64 · August 2011

I just wouldn't ask her to be a bridesmaid. She dislikes the church and you are getting married in the church.

I don't think your bridesmaids have to be Catholic or even religious. However, I could not have someone with anti-Catholic feelings or beliefs stand up and support my Catholic marriage.

doctabroccoli · August 2011

OP -
You should talk to her for sure. Only one person out of 10 in our bridal party (my brother) was Catholic, but none of them complained (not to me at least). They were happy to stand up and celebrate with us. If she is a good friend, she will put aside her feelings to support you on your wedding day.

jen2013 · August 2011

talk to her. Is she is not able to support you by being respectuful to your religion then I dont think she should be part of the wedding. She doesn't have to like it or agree, but just be willing to respect that this is what you chose. goodluck!

Jay&Marissa · August 2011

Bridesmaids don't have to be Catholic...many of mine weren't.

I'd put it this way:

"I really want you to be part of my wedding as a bridesmaid, but I know you have strong feelings about the Catholic Church. Is standing up in my wedding something you are comfortable doing?"

Anti-Catholic BM

Re: Anti-Catholic BM

Choose Another Board

Search Boards