NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent!

catarntina · June 2011

My best friend's sister goes to a non-demoninational Christian church. She posted today on FB that she is really frustrated when people pick and choose out of the Bible passages that suit their needs, and that everything in the Bible is the truth.

Two comments later she says, "Also, a lot of things in the Old [Testament] were set in place for when Jesus came to Earth and are no longer needed."

I responded that saying things in the Old Testament were irrelevant is picking and choosing. Her boyfriend jumped in and turned it into a debate on Catholicsm, and then proceeded to tell me that my doctrine was false. Italics are his response:

We do not adhere to anything but what the Bible teaches. If we want to talk about picking and choosing what to believe I have got to ask about your "Catholic" beliefs. Can you please show me in Scripture where it says that a priest isn't supposed to marry? What about confessing your sins to a priest to be given forgiveness? What about penance? What about purgatory? What about indulgences? What about worship of Mary or the Saints? What about transubstantiation? What about earning grace? Mary as co-redemptrix?

Read the Word and get out of false doctrine and bad theology. Much love.

I defended the teachings, and he went on to say that by offering our prayers to Mary, a saint, or a priest in confession is considered idolism and Mary cannot pray for us "beacuse she is dead." He also said "Holy Mary, Mother of God" is incorrect because she was the mother Jesus.

I don't usually let ignorant people bother me this much. But this really irked me because he flat out said my beliefs were false when I was merely defending the fact that the Old Testament was still relevant. Ugh!

Sorry, vent over!

How do you deal with something like this when it comes up?

Riss91 · June 2011

This happens all the time with my husband and his extended family.

I would respond by saying that his angry, dismissive, demeaning words and tone are hurtful and disrespectful. Although you do not share their beliefs 100%, you do not think it's necessary to wage a war, picking them apart and engaging in condescending attacks. Learning about others' religious beliefs can strengthen your own and no matter what you believe in, everyone should always be kind and warm when discussing and debating. Especially with a friend.

Also - from your end, I would make a point of not sounding like you're putting them down (not that you were trying to). But always go way above and beyond to make it clear you aren't trying to attack. Maybe you could have posed it as a question like "Hmmm... one could say that writing off the Old Testament could be considered picking and choosing, don't you think?"

And when they start dragging Catholicism into it, you could just cut them off and say "Hey now, I wasn't implying anything about Catholicism... I was merely connecting two comments that were said that could contradict each other. No need to drag other religions into it."
Which turns the focus back to them.

agapecarrie · June 2011

well, if he was seriously asking about those issues (which it doesn't sound like he was) , give him the book "Catholicism and fundamentalism" by karl keating. It addresses each of those issues by topic.

jazzybacc · June 2011

This is just one small part of your post, but Jesus is God's self in human form, so Yes, Mary is the mother of God.. SO THERE

caitriona87 · June 2011

Frustrating indeed. Even though it does sound kind of like they're not really curious or interested about why we believe those things, if you explain them anyway with as much charity as you can possibly muster you could be instrumental in helping to dispel some of their negative ideas about Catholics (that we don't know the Bible, etc.)

Also *cringe* at calling Mary "dead!" Ugh!!! Our God is the God of the living. And err if A=B and B=C, then A=C.....To say that Mary is not the Mother of God is to say that Jesus is not God. The title "Mother of God" is rooted in the nature of Christ, not the nature of Mary!

Calypso1977 · June 2011

sadly, i have many a religious debate with my FIL - who is a fallen away Catholic. many times i just have to walk away, and i downright got pissed at him once when he started trashing the faith and saying that all priests are pedophiles right in my own living room, on the couch under my crucifix.

catarntina · June 2011

The really sad thing is when I asked him if wanted to have a serious conversation on Catholicsm, he said, "I was Catholic for 18 years. I am very well versed in their doctrine." Really? Mmkay. I said, "I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience to make you so angry towards Catholics." And finally the girlfriend replies, "He's not angry. He just doesn't like false doctrine and heresy."

Then he proceeded to call me a hypocrit saying Catholics omit the books Hebrews and Timothy.

Oui Vei. At this point I decided it wasn't worth my energy.

Riss, I tried several times to bring it back to the original statement. They never addressed it, except by calling me a hypocrit for being Catholic. I did explain I thought his words were hurtful, and I never said that their doctrine was false so I didn't like he was saying mine was. His response: "Don't you care that I believe in what you believe? You'd rather save my feelings than save me from eternal damnation?"

Agapecarrie, I think I will look into that book for myself. You always have such good book recommendations.

Riss91 · June 2011

"Don't you care that I believe in what you believe? You'd rather save my feelings than save me from eternal damnation?"

My response to this would be "There's absolutely no reason that "saving me from eternal damnation" requires belittling me or my beliefs, no matter how heretic or false you feel they may be. If you are truly trying to help me, you should do so in a polite and caring way AND at the appropriate time and venue. This would NOT include attacking my religion on a random FB post. I was NOT trying to discuss religious beliefs, I was merely mentioning that two back-to-back statements could be contradictory. They just happened to be related to the Bible. I would have said the same thing whether the topic was politics or the weather."

And then I would let them know that I no longer wished to discuss the topic with them, as they have been unnecessarily cruel. I would also not take part in their discussions in the future if they were unable to see that their responses were mean-spirited.

agapecarrie · June 2011

The book is kind of "text booky"... the first half is explaining what fundementalism is, I kind of skimmed that part, but the 2nd half is by topic, and its fascinating.

shawna127 · June 2011

I applaud you ladies, when someone starts attacking my faith I get really worked up and it's hard for me not to get offended. Riss you some really good, calm and rational comebacks! I wish I was that collected. I have a question though...isn't the statement "holy mary, mother of God" straight from the bible?

I'm sorry you had to deal with this, some people you just can't talk to...it doesn't matter what you say. Their mind is made up...it's like talking to a brick wall.

agapecarrie · June 2011

I don't think the term "mother of God" is directly from scripture. The first half of the "Hail Mary" is though.

The thing to point out here is what does the term "mother" mean? A mother does not create a person, she is the vessel that carries the person. God still does the creating, but the mother then carries, and then cares for the person. I don't undertand why its so offensive to people to call Mary the "mother of God". God decided to go through Mary to get to us, so we should go through her to get to Him...and anything good about her always speaks to the glory of God. It's because of God that she is who she is.

ootmother2 · June 2011

I guess because I am older than most of you ladies, I have encountered people like this over and over. I have also studied world religions and never once ran into a true scholar who would speak that way.

IMO, religion doesn't belong on facebook to start out with.

As shawna said, it's like talking to a brick wall so just ignore them and walk away. And that would include a family member, ignorant enough to speak that way in my presence. They don't deserve acknowledgement anyhow.

You can't fix stupid but you can ignore stupid.

Riss91 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-frustrated-just-need-vent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8c03f453-49b3-42e0-99c0-74b30a3d7637Post:9b517e04-3730-4452-b959-b5146e04b4ef">Re: NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent!</a>:
[QUOTE]I applaud you ladies, when someone starts attacking my faith I get really worked up and it's hard for me not to get offended. Riss you some really good, calm and rational comebacks! I wish I was that collected. I have a question though...isn't the statement "holy mary, mother of God" straight from the bible? I'm sorry you had to deal with this, some people you just can't talk to...it doesn't matter what you say. Their mind is made up...it's like talking to a brick wall.
Posted by shawna127[/QUOTE]

Believe me, the initial responses in my head aren't as calm and cool, but I always think of how I can respond in a way that doesn't make me seem as bad as them and that has the best chance of getting through to them in a positive way. It is not easy at all!

chelseamb11 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-frustrated-just-need-vent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8c03f453-49b3-42e0-99c0-74b30a3d7637Post:a07de935-10b8-406c-8fad-c6c898f976b9">Re: NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent!</a>:
[QUOTE]This is just one small part of your post, but Jesus is God's self in human form, so Yes, Mary is the mother of God.. SO THERE
Posted by jazzybacc[/QUOTE]

Amen

chelseamb11 · June 2011

Coming from a "skeptical Catholic" point of view, I see where this guy is coming from. But the fact that he so blatantly and rudely argued you almost tells me that he needs to convince himself that he's right. Faith and religion are personal, and everyone has the right to believe as they wish. People who bring others down in the name of "their" religion are the biggest hypocrites in the world. The biggest thing that God and the Bible preach is love. So to bring others down, it's only going against God. In the end, Faith is just a big interpretation. Unless God truly comes down to us, everyone will decide which interpretation of God's word to follow (hence the different sects of Christianity). We should embrace our differences and educate one another of them. I was Lutheran until Easter when I was confirmed Catholic. There are still things I don't 100% agree with in Catholocism (as with other forms of Christianity too), but as I became more educated as to the REASONING and the scripture behind Catholic beliefs, I very much warmed up to many of them.

monkeysip · June 2011

@ OP... the first thing I say to people like this is to turn the tables on them and ask them WHERE in the bible it says that the bible is the only source of truth.

They never have an answer....because there is no such passage in the bible. "Sola Scriptura" (the belief that God's truth was revealed in Scripture alone and not in any other source) is not found in the bible, and therefore, is a self-defeating proposition.

The problem with people like this is that they don't know how to defend their beliefs; they only know how to go on the offensive and criticize yours. But when they approach you, the burden of proof is on THEM.... not you. So you have to put them back on the defensive and demand evidence from them instead of just vague statements about things being "unbiblical".

Usually the conversation ends very soon after this. But it may get them to thinking.

Amynutrition · June 2011

I am a convert who completed RCIA this past Easter.

To my knowledge, the Catholic Church was founded personally by Chirst based on his teachings. The Bible was written years after. All other "Christian" religions are spin-offs that wanted to change something.

::sigh:: people will always fight about religion so I just try to avoid it.

catarntina · June 2011

OOT, you crack me up. "You can't fix stupid." That's so true.

Riss, I wish I had a cooler head like yours. I just decided to ignore them after their last statements. Seemed so much less stressful for me. haha.

Jasmine&Rajah · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-frustrated-just-need-vent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8c03f453-49b3-42e0-99c0-74b30a3d7637Post:0128f564-fa3b-48e9-bc09-e322481487de">Re: NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent!</a>:

[QUOTE] "Sola Scriptura" (the belief that God's truth was revealed in Scripture alone and not in any other source) is not found in the bible, and therefore, is a self-defeating proposition.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

And on that note . . . guess what IS found in the Divinely inspired Word?
<strong>
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by epistle<sup> </sup>from us. </strong>
2 Thessalonians 2:15

<victory lap />

All kidding aside . . . maybe when things have cooled down, catarntina, you can suggest that they take a look at ScriptureCatholic.com. And of course, correct them on their assumption that the Bible does not contain Timothy and Hebrews. My goodness, talk about misconceptions . . .

Riss91 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-frustrated-just-need-vent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8c03f453-49b3-42e0-99c0-74b30a3d7637Post:f65f3207-92e7-4de9-a430-a5ab61375430">Re: NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent!</a>:
[QUOTE]OOT, you crack me up. "You can't fix stupid." That's so true. Riss, I wish I had a cooler head like yours. I just decided to ignore them after their last statements. Seemed so much less stressful for me. haha.
Posted by catarntina[/QUOTE]

Yeah I hear you! I did wind up doing that with some of my husband's family members. I hid them from my Newsfeed on FB. It makes it much easier for me to see them at gatherings because I don't have an ongoing list of blasphemous comments they've recently made running through my head.

Still waiting on an apology from them for attacking Catholicism to my husband right after his mother's Requiem Mass earlier this year [cringe]. They have no shame, manners or humility sometimes! I pray for them ALOT!

shawna127 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-frustrated-just-need-vent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8c03f453-49b3-42e0-99c0-74b30a3d7637Post:5002877f-817c-40c6-a783-708de97e7a36">Re: NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent!</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think the term "mother of God" is directly from scripture. The first half of the "Hail Mary" is though.Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Thank you! I knew part of the hail mary came straight from the bible, but I couldn't remember which part lol

shawna127 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-frustrated-just-need-vent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8c03f453-49b3-42e0-99c0-74b30a3d7637Post:630a3cd1-b8dc-4136-99ff-22a5426bb4ae">Re: NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent!</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent! : Believe me, the initial responses in my head aren't as calm and cool, but I always think of how I can respond in a way that doesn't make me seem as bad as them and that has the best chance of getting through to them in a positive way. It is not easy at all!
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

Well I am impressed, I'd say you do very, very well!

Wiscisbliss · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-frustrated-just-need-vent?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8c03f453-49b3-42e0-99c0-74b30a3d7637Post:dcb4d309-1781-4e27-b36a-61c923b8ee1c">NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent!</a>:
[QUOTE]My best friend's sister goes to a non-demoninational Christian church. She posted today on FB that she is really frustrated when people pick and choose out of the Bible passages that suit their needs, and that everything in the Bible is the truth. Two comments later she says, " Also, a lot of things in the Old [Testament] were set in place for when Jesus came to Earth and are no longer needed ." I responded that saying things in the Old Testament were irrelevant is picking and choosing. Her boyfriend jumped in and turned it into a debate on Catholicsm, and then proceeded to tell me that my doctrine was false. Italics are his response: We do not adhere to anything but what the Bible teaches. If we want to talk about picking and choosing what to believe I have got to ask about your "Catholic" beliefs. Can you please show me in Scripture where it says that a priest isn't supposed to marry? What about confessing your sins to a priest to be given forgiveness? What about penance? What about purgatory? What about indulgences? What about worship of Mary or the Saints? What about transubstantiation? What about earning grace? Mary as co-redemptrix? Read the Word and get out of false doctrine and bad theology. Much love. :) I defended the teachings, and he went on to say that by offering our prayers to Mary, a saint, or a priest in confession is considered idolism and Mary cannot pray for us "beacuse she is dead." He also said "Holy Mary, Mother of God" is incorrect because she was the mother Jesus. I don't usually let ignorant people bother me this much. But this really irked me because he flat out said my beliefs were false when I was merely defending the fact that the Old Testament was still relevant. Ugh! Sorry, vent over! How do you deal with something like this when it comes up?
Posted by catarntina[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. You opened yourself up to this when you replied about the Old Testament.

It is unlikely you will be able to change their views. In the future I recommend being polite and not discussing religion with these people.

MopsieB · June 2011

We are all made to question- it is natural and it is what makes us human. That said, there are people who believe that only they are the "chosen" or the "saved," and that's fine, I guess, only it bothers me when they cloak their beliefs under the guise of being intellectually curious. These people sound like bullies to me and quite frankly, it isn't worth your time and energy to argue with them. If it were me, I would simply respond by saying, "Let's just argree to disagree on this subject. Out of mutual respect for our obviously differing beliefs, I think it would be best if we avoided this subject in the future. Thanks!" And then no matter what they did or said, just ignore it or excuse yourself.

NWR: Frustrated, just need to vent!

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