Can we really legalize morality?

Tami87 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:510cbe65-1ae9-4d2d-92a0-dbc11ba2f67c">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can we really legalize morality? : What I meant with regards to my question is that Catholics are against the marriage of two people of the same sex, but doesn't seem to have issues when a marriage takes place of two people of the opposite sex where the idea of god is not involved at all. There is nothing in any state that has gay marriage that forces any church to perform said marriage.
Posted by libby18bell[/QUOTE]

I think the difference here (and others can correct me if I'm wrong) is that marriages performed between two people of the opposite sex are presumed to be valid. This would be a natural marriage and does not have to be performed in a church (or even mention God) because the couple is not Catholic and therefore does not have to follow form. The requirements for a natural marriage would be a life-long, exclusive commitment with the possibility of children (as the natural result of consummation of the marriage).

As I mentioned before since gay couples can not physically consummate a marriage with P in V sex nor is there any possibility of biological children without using artificial means it could not be considered a natural marriage.

monkeysip · March 2013

I'd like to stay away from this discussion with a 10foot pole, but all I will say is this.

If legislation is not based upon morality, then it is only based upon the arbitrary will of the legislators, be that one person or 250 million people.

Legislation must only be based upon morality... and yes, while many people think there are many different moralities, in truth there is only one. Something cannot be both bad and good at the same time. 2+2 can not equal 4, and 5, and 210, and orange "depending upon the person". Morality is based in the same truth in which science, math, and logic rests.

Morality finds it's ultimate completion within religion, but it does not require religion. So legislating morality =/= legislating religion.

monkeysip · March 2013

Also... if you read any Catholic commentary on scripture, then you realize that polygamy was NEVER sanctioned by God. The bible has a lot of sinful deeds in it, so just because people in the bible did it doesn't mean it was EVER okay.

Resa77 · March 2013

Riss, I really like your stance, and it resonates with me a lot. My one "issue" is where do we stop? If we started voting on whether people sholuld be required to attend church on Sundays, would you vote yes? If we had to vote whether or not premarital sex should be illegal, would you vote yes? If we had to vote whether or not gossip was illegal? What about holding a grudge? What about eating meat on Friday's in lent? By voting "no" on any of these issues, wouldn't you be aiding in sin just as much by voting yes for gay marriage?

If this is coming across as snarky, I apologize, as that is NOT my intention. I'm truly interested in your response. Where do we draw the line in loving your neighbor by keeping them from sinning? Where do we step back and decide that governmantal legislation is too much, and that God gave people free will so it's okay for us to let them use it?

caitriona87 · March 2013

Agreed with monkey on both points. To determine law by majority rule only is extremely dangerous as history shows.

And, I was going to mention the point as well re: polygamy. Just because something appears in the Bible does not mean it is moral or immoral, only that the people in the story were engaged in it.

That said, polygyny is prohibited by divine law but does not actually run contrary to natural law. It has never been seen as a big old group marriage in biblical (and other, both ancient and modern) cultures. It was/is one man who had contracted multiple marriages with multiple wives and the parallels to natural parenthood still hold--a woman can be impregnated by only one man at a time, so a polygynous marriage serves to maintain those same mother-father-child ties as a monogamous one. Polyandry (one woman, many men) does not serve this purpose and is contrary to natural law. While it can be found, it is extremely rare, and that is not by coincidence. .

Calypso1977 · March 2013

The line is drawn where one person's rights infringe on anothers. We could say that legislating against murder is legislating morality, but there, one person is, against his/her will, losing his/her life due to another's actions.

ill avoid bringing the abortion debate into this thread for the sanity of all posting here....

lalaith50 · March 2013

<span style="font-size:11px;line-height:14px;">[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can we really legalize morality? :</span>
<em><span style="font-family:Arial;font-size:12.222222328186035px;background-color:#ebf4fb;">This isn't about "stripping" rights. It's about GIVING NEW "rights" to a group of the population that has never in the history of the world had these particular benefits.</span>
</em><div><span style="background-color:#ebf4fb;font-family:Arial;font-size:12.222222328186035px;line-height:14px;"><em>Posted by lalaith50</em></span> <div>If we use this logic, women would never have been given the right to vote.</div><div>Posted by CrazyCatLady3[/QUOTE]</div><div>
</div><div>That's not my point at all - I'm not going there. I'm simply asking for correct terminology. There are no rights being "stripped" for anyone who is gay in this discussion.

</div></div>

s-aries8990 · March 2013

I think that pre-marital counseling should be mandatory for all marriages - maybe then the divorce rate would go down.

lalaith50 · March 2013

OMG WE HAVE A POPE

CrazyCatLady3 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:5c795d0c-af00-450e-85a2-991850e806ca">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]The line is drawn where one person's rights infringe on anothers. We could say that legislating against murder is legislating morality, but there, one person is, against his/her will, losing his/her life due to another's actions. ill avoid bringing the abortion debate into this thread for the sanity of all posting here....
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

<div>Well, as Chelsea said in her first post, this is why she thinks it's ok to seek anti-abortion legislation, but why it may not be ok to seek anti-same-sex marriage legislation.</div>

libby18bell · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:5c94e4e5-2771-4154-89b5-38d2f10cf5a3">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can we really legalize morality? : I think the difference here (and others can correct me if I'm wrong) is that marriages performed between two people of the opposite sex are presumed to be valid. This would be a natural marriage and does not have to be performed in a church (or even mention God) because the couple is not Catholic and therefore does not have to follow form. The requirements for a natural marriage would be a life-long, exclusive commitment with the possibility of children (as the natural result of consummation of the marriage). As I mentioned before since gay couples can not physically consummate a marriage with P in V sex nor is there any possibility of biological children without using artificial means it could not be considered a natural marriage.
Posted by Tami87[/QUOTE]

<div>The ability to have children is not a requirement of marriage. There are countless marriages in history that were a "business" arrangment. Exclusivity is also not a requirement of marriage. </div><div>
</div><div>My point is that it's a Catholic requirement, but it not a legal requirement. Aso so many Catholics, myself included, don't want the government or other people to infringe on their beliefs or be judged, I think everyone should be given the same amount of respect. Whom am I to judge another relationship to deem them worthy of a tax benefit, etc. </div>

caitriona87 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:edcd8600-56f4-467b-9d9c-4bbdc8cfb40f">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can we really legalize morality? : Yes but determining law by religious rule only is also extremely dangerous as the Taliban shows. We made slavery illegal, even though the Bible never says owning other people is a sin. I'd count that as a victory for morality. I'm sure natural law is a religious term I am unfamiliar with, but polyandry is common in nature, but then again so is rape. Just because something is natural doesn't make it good or moral or right. I'm not expecting you to come to my side on this, that isn't my point here, I'm just trying to get you to see it from another angle.
Posted by Liatris2010[/QUOTE]

I've posted nonreligious arguments only. :)

Natural law is a philosophical term. It has nothing to do with what is commonly found in nature (i.e. among animals or groups of humans.) It has to do with the natures of things. That is, we can determine a thing's end (purpose, telos) by examining its nature (WHAT it is.) The nature of the thing. It has nothing to do with natural/manmade/artificial type distinctions.

Kate61487 · March 2013

So I came by the board today to say "yay new pope!" and found this thread instead. So glad I did; this has been a very interesting read. If I may put in my two cents:

I don't personally see the difference between gay marriage and any other marriage performed outside the Catholic Church. A marriage performed by a JOP, or in a Baptist church, or by an atheist is not recognized by the Catholic Church. That does not make them any less legally valid; and we're not going on a crusade to ban those unions. Why this one? In the context of trying to help others avoid sin; I was always taught that I do that by trying to live as good a life as I can and by witnessing to others and by lending support when it is welcome. Not by going around slapping BC pills out of someone's hand. As PPs have said God gave everyone free will and while we can try to tell them what we believe the right path is we cannot force anyone to walk it.

Personal pet peeve of mine, however, is the phrasing of the impingement of rights. The benefits associate with marriage are not rights; they're benefits... that's why they're called marriage benefits. I believe wholeheartedly in the fundamental right of the pursuit of happiness. Live with who you want, love who you want. Getting a tax break? Do I believe it SHOULD be extended to same sex couples? Absolutely. But it's not a right. The US government could absolutely eliminate all tax perks and presumed automatic inheritance, power of attorney, etc. tomorrow and they would not be infringing on my rights.

Resa77 · March 2013

Kate -- glad you posted! Actually, the Catholic Church recognizes marriages by the JOP or the Baptist church as valid. A marriage between two baptists, for example, is considered by Catholics to be a sacrament, just like my marriage with my husband (we're both Catholic).

I get your point, though, and it's one I struggle with. For instance, as Catholics, we believe marriage is monogamous. What about couples who get married, but have open marriages which involve "swinging" and all that? Why aren't we fighting to make that illegal? So basically, I get your point

newlyseliski · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:77e2e2df-ff4a-4ff6-ba62-728aa3dcada4">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can we really legalize morality? : So do you think the government shouldn't have welfare, healthcare etc for single people because they should just get married instead? What if the single person can't find a stable, suitable, willing partner? As someone who did not meet her partner until she was 31, I would have been in a really bad position had I been in poverty in my 20s and needed assistance to get by, but the gov't just told me to "get married" to take care of my problem.
Posted by CrazyCatLady3[/QUOTE]

<div>To clarify, I said absolutely nothing about advocating the elimination these social safety nets. The way these programs are currently structured do not encourage intact family units... i.e. Mom + Dad + their biological kids. That is the ideal structure in which children are connected with their parents and flourish... intact familes are always going to be better for children and more beneficial to society as a whole than fragmented families. I'd encourage you to read the first article that I posted because it goes into a lot more depth on my reasoning.</div>

agapecarrie · March 2013

The Catholic church recognizes all marriages between a man and a woman (presuming no imediments). Whether they are baptized or not, catholic or not, as valid. If they are both baptized, it is sacramental.

STARMOON44 · March 2013

Kate sure, the US could get rid of all marriage tax breaks, that isn't a right. The right is to equal treatment under the law.

Tami87 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:df1cc3b7-3560-4f44-9554-d24257fcbd40">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can we really legalize morality? : The ability to have children is not a requirement of marriage. There are countless marriages in history that were a "business" arrangment. Exclusivity is also not a requirement of marriage. My point is that <strong>it's a Catholic requirement, but it not a legal requirement.</strong> Aso so many Catholics, myself included, don't want the government or other people to infringe on their beliefs or be judged, I think everyone should be given the same amount of respect. Whom am I to judge another relationship to deem them worthy of a tax benefit, etc.
Posted by libby18bell[/QUOTE]

I was responding to the question that you asked which was why are Catholics okay with straight marriages that are not performed in a church and do not mention God but not gay marriages. I answered you from a Catholic perspective of what the difference between these two scenarios is and why one (where children is a possibility) would be acceptable while the other would not.

Also if you read my other post you would see that I tend to be in favor of giving benefits to same sex partners. It is also not about judging a relationship it is about the definition of the word marriage and differing ideas about the purpose of marriage.

chelseamb11 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:20910352-013d-434b-8008-756f7fc1b12f">Re:Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]Kate sure, the US could get rid of all marriage tax breaks, that isn't a right. The right is to equal treatment under the law.
Posted by STARMOON44[/QUOTE]

So you're saying the law should say that consenting adults, regardless of ANYTHING, should be able to marry?

Disclaimer: I am NOT saying these are comparable to one another, but I'm going to list the few types of marriges that I'm aware of that are not legall. Do you (general you) believe they should all be legal assuming it's all between consenting adults?

Gay marriage
Marriage between family members (even if they do not procreate)
Polygamy

libby18bell · March 2013

Kate61487, your post was exactly my perspective, so thanks for putting it in such great words.

With regards to have civil unions vs. marriage in the context of the words. The Federal govt lists "mariage" so that is the word that needs to be used. Unless the Federal govt is going to change any union that does not take place in a church, a civil union, i.e., JOP then we have to use the words we are dealt with. There are many states that do not have civil unions, simple as that.

Riss91 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:88582789-93d5-4d7c-a27a-4b8730af2a56">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]Riss, I really like your stance, and it resonates with me a lot. My one "issue" is where do we stop? If we started voting on whether people sholuld be required to attend church on Sundays, would you vote yes? If we had to vote whether or not premarital sex should be illegal, would you vote yes? If we had to vote whether or not gossip was illegal? What about holding a grudge? What about eating meat on Friday's in lent? By voting "no" on any of these issues, wouldn't you be aiding in sin just as much by voting yes for gay marriage? If this is coming across as snarky, I apologize, as that is NOT my intention. I'm truly interested in your response. Where do we draw the line in loving your neighbor by keeping them from sinning? Where do we step back and decide that governmantal legislation is too much, and that God gave people free will so it's okay for us to let them use it?
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

Yeah... that would be a huge mess. I'm not sure God wants us to all live in prison for all of our venial sins!

I think there is difference between something that goes against the "natural law of God" and simply "any and all sins". Under the law of God there is no such thing as a marriage between two men or two women. You can't support someting that doesn't exist.

So I don't think you need to criminalize all sinful behavior, if that somehow came up in a voting situation. I think sinful behavior that is injurious to others (murder, stealing, fraud) would be those you would need to vote against. But not criminalize smaller, venial sins does not equal an endorsement of them. There is also practicability - if you don't believe that it is possible to "police" these sins, or the way to "police" them and "punish" them is not practical or is not appropriate, you wouldn't be supporting the sinful behavior by not voting against the law.

So, you could be compelled to vote against gay marriage as it goes against the natural laws of marriage set forth by God, but you wouldn't have to vote for a law making homosexual acts illegal and punishable.

Hope that helps!

Resa77 · March 2013

Riss, that explains a lot! I totally see the difference between something that goes against natural vs divine law. I also think it's a great distinction you make about something being punishable by law vs just not being recognized as legal. Your response really helps a lot, and makes it a lot easier to understand why a Catholic cannot vote for gay marriage (I don't vote for gay marriage, but it's always been out of obedience and not out of total understanding/agreement). So thanks!

I'm still torn, though. I honestly can't find a strong secular argument against gay marriage. I don't think that simply saying gay marriage is against natural law proves that it's against natural law. Maybe I just haven't heard the natural law argument explained well, but I just can't imagine that ever holding much water for someone who isn't religious.

agapecarrie · March 2013

We all get family wounds when we are raised. SOme more than others. When we are traumatized by an action by a parent (trauma can be as simple as a memory of harsh words from parents, or even something in which they are innocent--such as a parent leaving for a month to care for a sick relative, and we are way too understand that we haven't been abandoned) , our relationship with them can change, or create a wound in us, that then can become a source of disordered incliniations later. Our sexual identity is formed by our parents (do not read this as the verb sex, but the broader TOB general understanding of sexuality as male and female and learning how to love).

We learn very specific things from men, and very specific things from women. We start learning them in the womb. Girl's undertsanding of their own beauty and dignity comes from their father, and their father's affection and delight in her beauty. A boy's understanding of how to be protector/provider comes from example of his father and how he treats his mother.

So, denying children one of those relationships automatically creates very very deep wounds of not getting formed in their very own personal identity and learning how to love as a man or a woman.

Then to have only 2 "givers" or 2 "receivers" as parents (in sexual identity: initiator of the gift, receiver of the gift), its impossible for fruitfulness because there is no possibility of physical fruitfulness. It turns inward and self seeking rather than gift of self.

This distortion of family life, (the domestic church) displays itself in disfunction-- which in turn causes economic problems for the family, learning and attention needs for children in school, the increase of addictions (to fill those holes caused by wounds)...etc..etc..etc

We have to remember sin isn't just sin for its own sake. God didnt' just decide to make a rule. God is only offended by the things we do that harm ourselves.

CrazyCatLady3 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:c81d97b4-caa8-47d5-b7e5-66b4c9439e1c">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]We all get family wounds when we are raised. SOme more than others. When we are traumatized by an action by a parent (trauma can be as simple as a memory of harsh words from parents, or even something in which they are innocent--such as a parent leaving for a month to care for a sick relative, and we are way too understand that we haven't been abandoned) , our relationship with them can change, or create a wound in us, that then can become a source of disordered incliniations later. Our sexual identity is formed by our parents (do not read this as the verb sex, but the broader TOB general understanding of sexuality as male and female and learning how to love). We learn very specific things from men, and very specific things from women. We start learning them in the womb. Girl's undertsanding of their own beauty and dignity comes from their father, and their father's affection and delight in her beauty. A boy's understanding of how to be protector/provider comes from example of his father and how he treats his mother. So, denying children one of those relationships automatically creates very very deep wounds of not getting formed in their very own personal identity and learning how to love as a man or a woman. Then to have only 2 "givers" or 2 "receivers" as parents (in sexual identity: initiator of the gift, receiver of the gift), its impossible for fruitfulness because there is no possibility of physical fruitfulness. It turns inward and self seeking rather than gift of self. This distortion of family life, (the domestic church) displays itself in disfunction-- which in turn causes economic problems for the family, learning and attention needs for children in school, the increase of addictions (to fill those holes caused by wounds)...etc..etc..etc We have to remember sin isn't just sin for its own sake. God didnt' just decide to make a rule. God is only offended by the things we do that harm ourselves.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Children of lesbian parents found to score higher on psychological/behavior tests:</div><div>
</div><div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:normal;background-color:#ffffff;">"We simply expected to find no difference in psychological adjustment between adolescents reared in lesbian families and the normative sample of age-matched controls," says Gartrell. "I was surprised to find that on some measures we found higher levels of [psychological] competency and lower levels of behavioral problems. It wasn't something I anticipated."</span><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;line-height:normal;">

Read more: <a style="color:#003399;" href="http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1994480,00.html#ixzz2NYGmOQe0" rel="nofollow">http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1994480,00.html#ixzz2NYGmOQe0</a></span></div><div><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><span style="line-height:normal;">
</span></font></div><div><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" size="3" color="#000000"><span style="line-height:normal;">American Psychological Association finds no negative effect on children raised by gay parents:</span></font></div><div><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:15.59375px;">On the basis of a remarkably consistent body of research on lesbian and gay parents and their children, the American Psychological Association (APA) and other health professional and scientific organizations have concluded that there is no scientific evidence that parenting effectiveness is related to parental sexual orientation.</span></div><div><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px;line-height:15.59375px;">
</span></font></font></div><div><font color="#000000"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12px;line-height:15.59375px;"><a href="http://www.apa.org/news/press/response/gay-parents.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.apa.org/news/press/response/gay-parents.aspx</a></span>
</font></font>
</div>

caitriona87 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:002e702d-49b2-4044-b1db-2af27ab40990">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE] I honestly can't find a strong secular argument against gay marriage. I don't think that simply saying gay marriage is against natural law proves that it's against natural law. Maybe I just haven't heard the natural law argument explained well, but I just can't imagine that ever holding much water for someone who isn't religious.
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]

Resa, did you read any of the links posted here? I'm asking sincerely because honestly I used to think the same way until I did a lot of reading by some of these authors, especially Jennifer Roback Morse (not message board people, haha) about the purpose marriage serves in the public square.

ETA except that I didn't put so much importance on obedience so I commend you for that

newlyseliski · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:002e702d-49b2-4044-b1db-2af27ab40990">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm still torn, though. I honestly can't find a strong secular argument against gay marriage. I don't think that simply saying gay marriage is against natural law proves that it's against natural law. Maybe I just haven't heard the natural law argument explained well, but I just can't imagine that ever holding much water for someone who isn't religious.
Posted by Resa77[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>I'll post this again since it got lost on the first page. It's 43 pages, but with an issue this complex... you need at least that much. It is the best explanation I've found... </div><div>
</div><div><a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155" rel="nofollow"><u><font color="#0000ff">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155</font></u></a></div><div>
</div><div>If you'd like any more links, discussions or articles... I have about 15 (very disorganized) pages worth on a google document that I could share with you if you're interested.

</div>

agapecarrie · March 2013

Regarding the test that was posted:

154 is hardly comparable to what is mostly understood widely in psychological cirlces of parents giving children identity. This isn't merely a religious understanding.

their standards for what is defined as "normal" I really wonder about. The secular understanding of "normal teenage behavior" would consider sexual promiscuity as healthy.

chelseamb11 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:6bee23af-b4a6-450b-9582-a6454108b98e">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]Regarding the test that was posted: 154 is hardly comparable to what is mostly understood widely in psychological cirlces of parents giving children identity. This isn't merely a religious understanding. their standards for what is defined as "normal" I really wonder about. The secular understanding of "normal teenage behavior" would consider sexual promiscuity as healthy.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. It's such a small number and likely MOST of the participants lived within 100 miles of one another. That's not NEARLY enough data to prove something. And this isn't this study specifically. Any study on this scale needs a bigger demographic.

thejucheidea · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:c81d97b4-caa8-47d5-b7e5-66b4c9439e1c">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]Girl's undertsanding of their own beauty and dignity comes from their father, and their father's affection and delight in her beauty.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I learned more about my beauty, dignity and self-worth from the affection and delight of my gay uncle toward me than I did from my mother.

I don't think that I'd be less adjusted if I'd had my dad and uncle as my parents. I'd probably actually be better adjusted.

caitriona87 · March 2013

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_can-we-really-legalize-morality?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:d2185bbf-6fe4-4f3b-b1c6-b74097738570Post:87203ee5-f67a-4235-89e2-9e91045d869f">Re: Can we really legalize morality?</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Can we really legalize morality? : I'll post this again since it got lost on the first page. It's 43 pages, but with an issue this complex... you need at least that much. It is the best explanation I've found... <a href="http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155" rel="nofollow">http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1722155</a> If you'd like any more links, discussions or articles... I have about 15 (very disorganized) pages worth on a google document that I could share with you if you're interested.
Posted by newlyseliski[/QUOTE]

Yes that one is definitely worth reading. And I know this wasn't to me but I'd be interested if you're sharing around

Can we really legalize morality?

Re: Can we really legalize morality?

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