In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wedding-invite-addresses-feminist-version?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dfd9b011-062c-41e2-8a2b-d988eb0efd2cPost:3681c653-a560-4c1e-80f2-621160a56f21">Re: Wedding invite addresses - a feminist version</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Wedding invite addresses - a feminist version : EXACTLY thank you. We all make choices in life. I'm as feminist as they come but seriously? Who gets bent out of shape over someone properly addressing a social invitation? Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
I guess I do! Although I wouldn't call it bent out of shape :)
I'm trained in my program to think systemically... As in, just about everything is related to everything else. A small look of contempt from a husband can have a huge impact on his wife's self-esteem. I think that that small, seemingly insignificant things can have a huge impact. Even though it's "not that big of a deal," I think it does mean something.
Once again, I'm not saying it's wrong, rude, in poor taste.. Anything like that. But I think it matters.
So is the point that you are worried that women feel inferior/ suffer from poor self esteem if their mail is addressed with their husband's name on it? I'm not being snarky, I'm just asking. I am not seeing the "point" of this, if you will and/or how it changes the cycle of sexism. Educate me!
I can see that Poli. I might also be more involved in these feelings if I were changing my name. As it is, I can't see how one could choose one part of the patriarchy (symbolically leaving her family for her husband's by changing her last name to that of her husband) yet be extremely adamant about distancing themselves from something else that is related to that part of the patriarchy. I mean, I can see it, but I have chosen to avoid all this by keeping my own name! So if someone addresses me as Mrs. Meredith Hislastname they'd be wrong anyway.
Poli, I agree that it means something. That's one reason why I am not taking my husband's name (he's not taking mine, either). But that's the exact reason I would hesitate to refuse to address to "mr and mrs. john doe." Because Mrs. John Doe made that choice - who am I to say that her choice was less than the choice I am making?
If it means something to me to NOT be known as "Mrs. Mark Lastname" then by that same logic, it means something to choose to be known as "Mrs. John Doe" if that's what a woman chose. As a feminist, I am not going to belittle her choice OR assume she didn't know what was best for herself.
That said, I think most people won't really notice or care.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wedding-invite-addresses-feminist-version?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dfd9b011-062c-41e2-8a2b-d988eb0efd2cPost:b6aa3774-65c4-48cf-ae49-c59a0a8c90b4">Re: Wedding invite addresses - a feminist version</a>: [QUOTE]I think the opinions in this htread show that everyone is different. <strong>Perhaps imposing your beliefs on the invitation envelopes (if they mean that much to you) will pacify some and enrage others</strong>. (Again, those who care.) But to answer your question, these are the only correct ways: Mr. and Mrs. John Doe Mrs. Jane and Mr. John Doe Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
To be fair, any way of addressing invitations (traditional v. both names) is imposing beliefs. You're never going to please everybody all the time, so I think it's best to go with what seems right to you personally.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wedding-invite-addresses-feminist-version?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dfd9b011-062c-41e2-8a2b-d988eb0efd2cPost:6cfeb429-842f-453c-b1bd-f18e512881e3">Re: Wedding invite addresses - a feminist version</a>: [QUOTE]I can see that Poli. I might also be more involved in these feelings if I were changing my name. As it is, I can't see how one could choose one part of the patriarchy (symbolically leaving her family for her husband's by changing her last name to that of her husband) yet be extremely adamant about distancing themselves from something else that is related to that part of the patriarchy. I mean, I can see it, but I have chosen to avoid all this by keeping my own name! So if someone addresses me as Mrs. Meredith Hislastname they'd be wrong anyway. Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
I definitely see what you're saying here.
And Andy, I probaly didn't phrase that the best... I wasn't trying to equate the two or say they're related, but more just to say that "small" things can often mean quite a bit. In my example, lots of people would say "It's just a look; it didn't mean anything." But little things are often represenations of larger things, like contempt (in my husband and wife example) or sexism.
I think it really comes down to personal preference. Do I think that people who choose to honor tradition are wrong? No. But am I aware of small instances of gender inequality in my life? Most definitely. Would I have thought about it twice or cared before studying gender equality for freaking ever? Probably not.
Ok, I get that but what I'm trying to understand is how the man's last name situation is doing any damage to our society. Or is this more of a "memory" of the stronger sexism that was once associated with last names and you'd like to completely move away from that process completely?
Do not mess in the affairs of dinosaurs because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
I love you Missy. Even though you are not smart enough to take online quizzes to find out really important information. ~cew
I'd say that it's small things like that that perpetuate gender inequality in our society. Sociologically speaking, it takes a hell of a lot to change society, and I'm of the belief that every little bit counts.
I suck at examples, but I'll try. I think that homophobic comments are unacceptable and hateful. When one of my friends says "That's so gay" or "You're such a f*g," I'll say something. It might be meant in jest and chances are, the person making the comment isn't actually homophobic. They're probably a wonderful, kind person who isn't even considering the meaning of what they're saying.
But by society deeming those homophobic terms acceptable and equating homosexuality with an insult, I feel like it perpetuates concepts of homophobia. I just think language is powerful.
I know I'm on a soapbox... I'm sorry! I don't get much of a chance to discuss this these days
ETA: I should say that I don't at all think that addressing invitations that way is an insult the way "you're so gay" is meant to be.
Well, I understand the words you are saying but I'm not seeing how this particular example is harmful. But I am happy for ya lol. I'm glad you like these gender studies and what not and that you took the time to try to explain it.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wedding-invite-addresses-feminist-version?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dfd9b011-062c-41e2-8a2b-d988eb0efd2cPost:c22dbe9a-26fa-4757-a6f4-14b84f480b27">Re: Wedding invite addresses - a feminist version</a>: [QUOTE]Agreed with PPs but is this something that people really notice? Posted by andyandhillary[/QUOTE] i notice, and this is something that really gets my hackles up.
i decided to take h's name, simply because i like it better than my maiden name and i've been itching to ditch my maiden name ever since forever. that was my decision and that's what feminism is about - having choices.
however, i never made any sort of decision or agreement to alter my first name. my first name is jill, not jason. being addressed as "jason" really pisses me off. that's NOT my name.
Here's the thing - I think it's safer to stick to tradition by default and adapt to the "feminist" version for those guests whom you know will appreciate it, rather than the other way around.
While I would not be personally upset if someone addressed me as "Mrs. Brian _____" I prefer to be addressed by my own first name even though I am taking his last name. My parents did not name me Brian.
I am taking his last name mostly because my own last name is long and frequently misspelled and mispronounced. It is not intended as a statement one way or the other.
I think all the hyphens and the issues with children's names for some couples is making life more difficult. The old Russian aristocracy had family names for men and for women that were different, and you kept your family name and passed it on to sons and daughters via each parents family line. All politics aside, I wish we had something that convenient going on.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_wedding-invite-addresses-feminist-version?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:dfd9b011-062c-41e2-8a2b-d988eb0efd2cPost:a843b8b5-6373-4d07-a798-84b38f04fe09">Re: Wedding invite addresses - a feminist version</a>: [QUOTE]Ohwhynot, I didn't say that all women object to it. I was responding directly to your quote that a woman who chooses to take her husband's last name is also agreeing to be called by his first name--and that's what I said is not true because I personally know of many women who didn't agree to it and don't like it. I absolutely agree that to some extent you need to know your guests and what they'd want. If you (general you) want to address people as Mrs. John Smith and you have reason to believe that's what they want, then go ahead. But I think it's a leap to assume that because they took their husband's name or are "older," that they're also traditional and conservative because the two don't have to go hand in hand. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Posted by tenofcups4me[/QUOTE]
Sorry - I went to bed & missed this last night. I do agree with that.
This was a good debate, even though I had to step away last night.
Anyway, I think my main point with all this is that if you CHOSE to take your husband's last name, it is inevitable that at some point you'll be addressed as Mrs. John Doe. And despite your preference, the person addressing will be correct, etiquette-wise. It is one of those things that is what it is. Perhaps in a few more generations it will die out. Who knows? Feel free to keep stating your preference and make other feminist choices, though.
yea, what Salt said. I can't wait to be "Mrs. HisFirstName HisLastName." in fact, a classmate of mine just asked for my address so she can send an invite to her summer wedding. I'll already be married by that point, so I gave her the address with the names "Mr. & Mrs. HisFirstName HisLastName."
the feminist in me is making the choice to be referred to by my future husband's name.
so I have to agree with those that say, "if she chose to take her husband's name, then it would be appropriate and feminist to refer to her by her husband's name." because I believe that part of being feminist is having the choice to go by your husband's name or not. NOT being adamant that ALL women should be referred to by their own name.
Re: Wedding invite addresses - a feminist version
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Wedding invite addresses - a feminist version : EXACTLY thank you. We all make choices in life. I'm as feminist as they come but seriously? Who gets bent out of shape over someone properly addressing a social invitation?
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
I guess I do! Although I wouldn't call it bent out of shape :)
I'm trained in my program to think systemically... As in, just about everything is related to everything else. A small look of contempt from a husband can have a huge impact on his wife's self-esteem. I think that that small, seemingly insignificant things can have a huge impact. Even though it's "not that big of a deal," I think it does mean something.
Once again, I'm not saying it's wrong, rude, in poor taste.. Anything like that. But I think it matters.
Planning!.....Married!
40/112
If it means something to me to NOT be known as "Mrs. Mark Lastname" then by that same logic, it means something to choose to be known as "Mrs. John Doe" if that's what a woman chose. As a feminist, I am not going to belittle her choice OR assume she didn't know what was best for herself.
That said, I think most people won't really notice or care.
[QUOTE]I think the opinions in this htread show that everyone is different. <strong>Perhaps imposing your beliefs on the invitation envelopes (if they mean that much to you) will pacify some and enrage others</strong>. (Again, those who care.) But to answer your question, these are the only correct ways: Mr. and Mrs. John Doe Mrs. Jane and Mr. John Doe
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
To be fair, any way of addressing invitations (traditional v. both names) is imposing beliefs. You're never going to please everybody all the time, so I think it's best to go with what seems right to you personally.
Planning!.....Married!
[QUOTE]I can see that Poli. I might also be more involved in these feelings if I were changing my name. As it is, I can't see how one could choose one part of the patriarchy (symbolically leaving her family for her husband's by changing her last name to that of her husband) yet be extremely adamant about distancing themselves from something else that is related to that part of the patriarchy. I mean, I can see it, but I have chosen to avoid all this by keeping my own name! So if someone addresses me as Mrs. Meredith Hislastname they'd be wrong anyway.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
I definitely see what you're saying here.
And Andy, I probaly didn't phrase that the best... I wasn't trying to equate the two or say they're related, but more just to say that "small" things can often mean quite a bit. In my example, lots of people would say "It's just a look; it didn't mean anything." But little things are often represenations of larger things, like contempt (in my husband and wife example) or sexism.
I think it really comes down to personal preference. Do I think that people who choose to honor tradition are wrong? No. But am I aware of small instances of gender inequality in my life? Most definitely. Would I have thought about it twice or cared before studying gender equality for freaking ever? Probably not.
Planning!.....Married!
Do not mess in the affairs of dinosaurs because you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
I love you Missy. Even though you are not smart enough to take online quizzes to find out really important information. ~cew
I suck at examples, but I'll try. I think that homophobic comments are unacceptable and hateful. When one of my friends says "That's so gay" or "You're such a f*g," I'll say something. It might be meant in jest and chances are, the person making the comment isn't actually homophobic. They're probably a wonderful, kind person who isn't even considering the meaning of what they're saying.
But by society deeming those homophobic terms acceptable and equating homosexuality with an insult, I feel like it perpetuates concepts of homophobia. I just think language is powerful.
I know I'm on a soapbox... I'm sorry! I don't get much of a chance to discuss this these days
ETA: I should say that I don't at all think that addressing invitations that way is an insult the way "you're so gay" is meant to be.
Planning!.....Married!
Planning!.....Married!
[QUOTE]Agreed with PPs but is this something that people really notice?
Posted by andyandhillary[/QUOTE]
i notice, and this is something that really gets my hackles up.
i decided to take h's name, simply because i like it better than my maiden name and i've been itching to ditch my maiden name ever since forever. that was my decision and that's what feminism is about - having choices.
however, i never made any sort of decision or agreement to alter my first name. my first name is jill, not jason. being addressed as "jason" really pisses me off. that's NOT my name.
Dresses may be easier to take in than let out, but guest lists are not. -- kate51485
rescue powered by
[QUOTE]Ohwhynot, I didn't say that all women object to it. I was responding directly to your quote that a woman who chooses to take her husband's last name is also agreeing to be called by his first name--and that's what I said is not true because I personally know of many women who didn't agree to it and don't like it. I absolutely agree that to some extent you need to know your guests and what they'd want. If you (general you) want to address people as Mrs. John Smith and you have reason to believe that's what they want, then go ahead. But I think it's a leap to assume that because they took their husband's name or are "older," that they're also traditional and conservative because the two don't have to go hand in hand. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.
Posted by tenofcups4me[/QUOTE]
Sorry - I went to bed & missed this last night. I do agree with that.
Anyway, I think my main point with all this is that if you CHOSE to take your husband's last name, it is inevitable that at some point you'll be addressed as Mrs. John Doe. And despite your preference, the person addressing will be correct, etiquette-wise. It is one of those things that is what it is. Perhaps in a few more generations it will die out. Who knows? Feel free to keep stating your preference and make other feminist choices, though.
40/112
Planning!.....Married!
the feminist in me is making the choice to be referred to by my future husband's name.
so I have to agree with those that say, "if she chose to take her husband's name, then it would be appropriate and feminist to refer to her by her husband's name." because I believe that part of being feminist is having the choice to go by your husband's name or not. NOT being adamant that ALL women should be referred to by their own name.
Glenna Harding Photography