FMIL and I had a discussion re: Etiquette Evolution

AzRunner · August 2012

I'm interested to see what the E board has to say. (I've been lurking quite a bit but I really wanted to open up a discussion after last night)

I made a reference to Miss Manners/Emily Post last night to my FMIL- I can't remember what the exact topic was, but she insisted that those resources were antiquated and obsolete because "times have changed".

I weighed in that, no, the crux of etiquette has not changed at all, regardless of people being able to do a ton of stuff online, like being able to register for Honeyfund (klassy).

My argument is that the Wedding Industrial Complex (yes, I'm capitalizing it) has become so out of control that they encourage the blowing off of the core etiquette values (inviting non-wedding invitees to a shower, etc) in the interest of spending more money/gift grabbing, etc. However, when you get down to it, the original etiquette rules really do still stand, even though people think they're "old fashioned". They're old for a reason- they work and people (mostly) still abide my them.

Thoughts? Exceptions?

baystateapple · August 2012

I agree with you. Politeness is politeness, no matter how you slice it.

Meegles4 · August 2012

You're right that the core of etiquette hasn't changed. Etiquette is about manners and treating people nicely and making them comfortable. That stuff never goes out of style.

Also, sources like Emily Post are updated on a regular basis. So, while she specifically is outdated (and also dead), her name is a brand and lives on in the etiquette world. Her heirs have taken the reins and they do come out with new and updated etiquette rules where necessary due to changing times.

MyUserName1 · August 2012

Well, you can certainly make the argument that etiquette has evolved. For instance, RSVP cards would have been rude 150 years ago. Because back then people hand wrote letters RSVPing, so a pre-written card would be tacky.

That being said, core etiquette values have not changed since the original Miss Manners.

AzRunner · August 2012

OH! I remembered- the Dollar Dance.

She said it was a cultural thing so it was okay. Since it's not a part of any culture that I or FI partake in, I said that it wasn't okay.

Personally, I find them to be really tacky and mortifying but I'll leave her reasoning out since it involved a lot of non-PC terms.

pkontk · August 2012

I had quite a debate with my parents about putting "no gifts please" on our e-party invitations. My mother especially just didn't get that putting that on the invitation wasn't ok. Dad convinced her that in the end it was our wedding and they should expect our wishes (although I didn't ever say that.)

I agree with DJ, to me, etiquette is all about making guests feel comfortable and welcomed.

mica178 · August 2012

The ultimate goal of trying to make your guests feel comfortable and respected never becomes obsolete or outdated.

If your FMIL is trying to make you do something that you feel is a breach of etiquette, thank her for her suggestion, change the subject, and then do not do the rude thing.

Meegles4 · August 2012

Many people believe the dollar dance to be cultural. So I see where FMIL is coming from. However, etiquette-wise, you don't want your guests to have to open their wallets at an event you're hosting. So things like the dollar dance fall into that category and are thus tacky.

If that's a point of contention, explain to her that while it may be common in her circle, it's not common in yours and you're uncomfortable with asking guests to give you money in such a blatant way. Hopefully she'll respect your wishes.

There's also a difference between etiquette and tradition. If the dollar dance is traditional in your circle and everyone expects it, then fine, do it. But know that technically it's against etiquette. I'm sure most brides could point to things that they did that maybe weren't appropriate by E standards, but regionally or traditionally were perfectly normal and accepted.

That's what always cracks me up about people who come here and try to get the OK to do something against etiquette just because "everyone they know does it". So fine, then go for it. But when you come to a board focused on etiquette we're going to tell you if something's wrong, regardless of if everyone you know does it.

zantster · August 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_fmil-and-i-had-a-discussion-re-etiquette-evolution?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:d76f2725-c40b-4876-b74c-95b8cfde356bPost:e494d8db-ad3a-4856-917e-42da21f4fc28">Re: FMIL and I had a discussion re: Etiquette Evolution</a>:
[QUOTE]The ultimate goal of trying to make your guests feel comfortable and respected never becomes obsolete or outdated. If your FMIL is trying to make you do something that you feel is a breach of etiquette, thank her for her suggestion, change the subject, and then do not do the rude thing .
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

You know I've been thinking about this and I wonder about the significance of some etiquette rules that no longer get the side-eye from most people/guests who are truly clueless about wedding etiquette. Of course you have the core rules. But which ones make up the "core?" I mean if etiquette is about making sure your guests feel comfortable and respected and they don't even know something you did would be considered rude so they don't feel disrespected then when does it cease being required etiquette like when RSVPs became accepted? Like would not including plus ones for everyone or putting "adults only" and registry info in the invite be "core" etiquette issues or would other ones be more likely to make the cut as "core" like inviting everyone to both ceremony and reception? I'm just curious from a devil's advocate and true curiosity POV.

mica178 · August 2012

I don't understand your argument. Are you arguing that guests don't know what makes them comfortable or what makes them feel disrespected? Most people know that they'd like to bring their significant other to weddings. Most people understand that the people listed on the envelope are the people invited to the wedding. So when you tell a friend that she can't bring her boyfriend to the wedding, you are basically assuming that she doesn't want to celebrate your nuptials with her love interest. And when you write "no children" on an invitation, you are indicating to your guests that you don't think they know how to read and interpret an invitation.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · August 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_fmil-and-i-had-a-discussion-re-etiquette-evolution?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:d76f2725-c40b-4876-b74c-95b8cfde356bPost:4eb961d7-4b09-4420-ab34-588b73952cf2">Re: FMIL and I had a discussion re: Etiquette Evolution</a>:
[QUOTE]OH! I remembered- the Dollar Dance. She said it was a cultural thing so it was okay. Since it's not a part of any culture that I or FI partake in, I said that it wasn't okay. Personally, I find them to be really tacky and mortifying but I'll leave her reasoning out since it involved a lot of non-PC terms.
Posted by AzRunner[/QUOTE]

IMO, the dollar dance may be cultural. But I believe it originated when people were NOT bringing/sending large gifts and possibly traveling long distances ON TOP of the dollar dance. So, in essence, throwing money at the couple while they danced or pinning it to them or "paying" them to dance WAS your gift. So in that way, yes, the dollar dance is tacky today because it's on top of all the money and trouble people have gone to to come to your wedding.

But if it really is very much a part of your culture, whatever. Since that's not the case with you, obviously don't do it! My husband has seen it at weddings before (his family is originally from the midwest, where he said he's seen it), but my family definitely has never heard of them!

zantster · August 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_fmil-and-i-had-a-discussion-re-etiquette-evolution?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:d76f2725-c40b-4876-b74c-95b8cfde356bPost:e620f44c-fdbd-4fe6-ad4a-1e7e5ae76062">Re: FMIL and I had a discussion re: Etiquette Evolution</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't understand your argument. Are you arguing that guests don't know what makes them comfortable or what makes them feel disrespected? Most people know that they'd like to bring their significant other to weddings. Most people understand that the people listed on the envelope are the people invited to the wedding. So when you tell a friend that she can't bring her boyfriend to the wedding, you are basically assuming that she doesn't want to celebrate your nuptials with her love interest. And when you write "no children" on an invitation, you are indicating to your guests that you don't think they know how to read and interpret an invitation.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]
I don't have a real argument to be honest. I have just observed other people do etiquette faux pas that didn't seem to be noticed by the invitee who showed me their invite. My colleague had no clue that the invite she showed me the other day that had "Adults Only" on it and a list of three hotels with prices listed and a registry was all really bad form. And it made me scratch my head and wonder how many other people are not offended by these things and at what point does something that used to be etiquette become socially acceptable like the RSVP? I wouldn't do any of that isht but it made me wonder. By the way, plus ones are only for those who have a SO? Because I've seen some people post that real etiquette for plus ones should be for all guests regardless of whether they have a SO.

Miss_2010 · August 2012

Depends.

Politeness and being curteous should never go out of style. Old school wedding etiquette? Yeah I believe anything goes now. A lot of wedding traditions are gone to the wayside where I live now, ie: no bridal party dance, no showers, co-ed versus same sex stag/stagette parties, who pays for what, how invites are worded, how thank you notes are completed and when, how RSVPs can be sent back to the couple (e RSVP versus paper versus phone call versus text), no rehersal dinner, never heard of a bridal lunch, no bouquet/garter tosses, no "last dance" etc etc.

Most people do a combination of some and leave out other aspects.

I remember my ex's mother and I used to discuss etiquette which used to drive me nuts. She was old school in that the bride's parents pay for basically everything, and the groom's parents throw a rehersal party and drunkfest. In turn the woman changes her name to the man's and we are all one big happy family after that. Mmmm not so much. Maybe she just knew how to crawl under my skin.

A lot of couples nowadays throw their own wedding and don't depend on financial support from parents. I guess the rules get bent a little. When my brother got married some 12-13 years ago, his wedding was more "traditional", mine definitely is not so much(with regards to who pays for what, who has say in what, how things are worded, laid back attitudes, etc)

zantster · August 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_fmil-and-i-had-a-discussion-re-etiquette-evolution?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:d76f2725-c40b-4876-b74c-95b8cfde356bPost:6101a81a-0be1-4226-a59c-ab4292124a84">Re: FMIL and I had a discussion re: Etiquette Evolution</a>:
[QUOTE]Depends. Politeness and being curteous should never go out of style. Old school wedding etiquette? Yeah I believe anything goes now. A lot of wedding traditions are gone to the wayside where I live now, ie: no bridal party dance, no showers, co-ed versus same sex stag/stagette parties, who pays for what, how invites are worded, how thank you notes are completed and when, how RSVPs can be sent back to the couple (e RSVP versus paper versus phone call versus text), no rehersal dinner, never heard of a bridal lunch, no bouquet/garter tosses, no "last dance" etc etc. Most people do a combination of some and leave out other aspects. I remember my ex's mother and I used to discuss etiquette which used to drive me nuts. She was old school in that the bride's parents pay for basically everything, and the groom's parents throw a rehersal party and drunkfest. In turn the woman changes her name to the man's and we are all one big happy family after that. Mmmm not so much. Maybe she just knew how to crawl under my skin. A lot of couples nowadays throw their own wedding and don't depend on financial support from parents. I guess the rules get bent a little. When my brother got married some 12-13 years ago, his wedding was more "traditional", mine definitely is not so much(with regards to who pays for what, who has say in what, how things are worded, laid back attitudes, etc)
Posted by Miss_2010[/QUOTE]
Right. That's the feeling I was getting too. When I was a little girl the rules seemed to be more cut and dry. But now they seem kind of fuzzy about which ones are accepted, acknowledged, and recognized by the majority of people (regional differences aside) as unbreakable rules of etiquette. Like for me a cash bar would be unthinkable. In fact I would definitely put that in the "core" cateogory. But as the makeup of families has changed and who pays for what it appears to have filtered down into other things.

Meegles4 · August 2012

The "who pays for what" argument doesn't really apply here. If we're using cash bar as an example, that's against etiquette regardless of if the B&G pay for their own wedding or their parents help. It's still tacky to host an event and still require guests to pay for portions of said event.

Plenty of couples pay for their own weddings and still follow correct etiquette, i.e. have a fully hosted bar. Not having money doesn't give you an excuse to make your guests feel uncomfortable/unwelcome. In the instance of a cash bar, many people just host beer/wine or a signature drink, limiting it to what they can afford but still following appropriate etiquette of hosting an event and not expecting people to shell out money for a drink.

ETA: Didn't fully read Miss's comments. Miss - everything you mentioned in your first paragraph (special dances, parties, etc.) are all traditions, not etiquette. There's a difference. Yes, traditions go out of style (like the bridal party dance). But etiquette never goes out of style. The choice to have a bridal party dance doesn't really affect your guests, but the choice to have a cash bar or assume they don't know how to dress for a wedding by placing attire restrictions on the invitation DOES affect your guests.

mica178 · August 2012

There's nothing wrong with listing prices with hotel block information.

Also, there's a huge difference between tradition and etiquette.

pomundson0 · August 2012

I agree, HUGE difference between etiquette and tradition. I get snipped on 'proper bridal etiquette' by FMIL, and we have to stop and explain that the treatment of our guests is not the issue, we're just not doing things traditionally, sometimes in an effort to HELP the guests by breaking said 'rules' (we sent the invites out early for example since so many had to plan for travel and we weren't supplied with addresses for his side for STDs until later). I was a bit insulted when I was asked on multiple occasions why my parents weren't paying for the wedding (tradition) and I got really defensive because my parents weren't able to, not that they didn't want to, and having to explain that over and over to someone rather well off just rubbed me the wrong way. Most recent was when I emailed over the invite list for the shower, I grouped all of their family together since she is doing to invites (was listed as the X Family). I was informed how long step siblings were with their BF'/GFs and they should have a seperate invite so they feel special, it's like good grief woman, so send it that way, I'm just giving you a list! ;p Their SO is invited, you know these people's names and I don't! ;p

andejean · September 2012

I have to add to the discussion about not knowing to be offended.

To be truthful, until this last year, I have NEVER been to a wedding that was not cash bar - as in, I paid for my own drinks all night, no champagne toast, nuttin. Am I willing to do this at my wedding? After reading ettiquette, and having the nice surprise of two "furnished bar" weddings? No way. I'm just saying, that until I joined this forum, I'd have had no idea that I should feel insulted.

The same goes for gift registries and non calligraphy on the envelopes. Those things are just not the norm here - so I guess what I am saying is, I agree with the previous devil's advocate post - how many people really know you are breaking etiquette if you break etiquitte? (not that that means you should...)

FMIL and I had a discussion re: Etiquette Evolution

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