Legal marriage before church marriage

melevebald · November 2010

It is possible that my fiance and I may need to get married legally about 2 months before our actual Catholic wedding because I may be losing my jog and I may need to join his company's health care plan. Does anyone have experience with this and have a sense as to how our priest might react? We definitely see the church wedding as the true wedding - the legal marriage would just be a slip of paper in order to afford health care.

Calypso1977 · November 2010

i personally dont think its ok to marry for the sake of insurance. some priests may frown on it, some might not. you can also elect COBRA for up to 18 months.

but here's somethign that might help you out. i'm an HR person so i know the law on this.

let's say you lose your job on January 1. You have 60 days to decide whether you want to elect COBRA coverage. At any time during that 60 days, if you need to elect coverage, you can, and it becomes effective the date you lost your insurance - in your case, January 1.

So if your wedding is set for some time during that 60 day period, you could forego the insurance covearge, and then if somethign should happen to you during that 60 day window, you could then elect the covearge, pay the 1 or 2 months fee, and be safe.

also, does your FI's company cover domestic partners? if so, you could qualify that way to go on his plan without marriage. as you'd be losing your coverage, that constitues what's called a "qualifying event" and it would allow you to enroll on his plan outisde of the open enrollment period.

your wedding date also qualifies as a "qualfying event" so you'd be able to go on your FI's insurance as of the date of your wedding.

tldh · November 2010

Don't do this. Take Calypso's advice and wait out the COBRA time.

mica178 · November 2010

Ditto the PPs.

COBRA is expensive, but as Calypso mentioned, you can apply for it retroactively to the last day of employment for the first 60 days. You have time to make a decision.

Priests will not allow you to have a second wedding to the same person. There are convalidations, where you receive the Sacrament of Marriage after a legal/civil wedding, but it's up to the priest to decide if he's willing to do that. Deciding to JOP for the sake of health insurance then expecting a huge ceremony with all the bells and whistles is probably not going to cut it with most priests.

You mentioned that your coverage will run out two months before your wedding date? The timing is perfect for Calypso's suggestion.

lindsaynewbride10 · November 2010

For the length of time that you'll be without a job, I'd suggest just going on COBRA. Of course it's going to be epxensive, but I'd rather pay two months of COBRA coverage than to do something like this.

banana468 · November 2010

Ditto PPs.

Beyond that, most churches do not view this favorably.

Our own parish wasn't going to marry us WITHOUT the marriage license.

What you propose to have isn't a marriage ceremony - you're looking for a Convalidation. And while that can be lovely, it's not something that many priests/churches view as something that holds the same pomp and circumstance as a wedding.

And I think you're also lying if you say that you don't consider yourselves married that way. You want SOMEONE to consider you married. You just don't want EVERYONE to consider you married.

mariadperezg · November 2010

I'm from Mexico and people do this all the time here. Being a 90% catholic country, I know many people who have had their legal wedding weeks or months prior to their Catholic wedding, for legal or visa purposes, and the Church is OK with that(you can't live together before the Catholic wedding though). I would speak to the priest and see what he says.

plato79 · November 2010

I looked into this option as well. It will really depend on the priest. Honestly, you'd think that the church would be much more welcoming of people who want to get married, but there's a lot of red tape and rigidity to getting married in the Catholic Church. I had the priest tell me that he personally would only bless our marriage if we had a civil ceremony first (i.e. no traditional wedding mass/ceremony); he also said that it was completely dependent upon the priest (and probably the details/circumstances). I imagine if you talk to the priest beforehand and explain your situation he might be understanding of the circumstances. Good luck!

Calypso1977 · November 2010

its important to understand that a "blessing" is not the same as a convalidation. you do not receive your sacrament with a blessing, nor is the marriage considered valid in the eyes of the church.

mica178 · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_legal-marriage-before-church-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8f581d44-5f69-409f-8a63-5e6388cb0149Post:9d5187e8-ec94-44c6-b68e-85e4647726c0">Re: Legal marriage before church marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]I'm from Mexico and people do this all the time here. Being a 90% catholic country, I know many people who have had their legal wedding weeks or months prior to their Catholic wedding, for legal or visa purposes, and the Church is OK with that(you can't live together before the Catholic wedding though). I would speak to the priest and see what he says.
Posted by mariadperezg[/QUOTE]

This is true, but in Mexico, legally you must have a legal wedding separate from the church wedding. In the US, the church wedding can be the legal wedding. I have a feeling that the difference in the legal rules changes the views of how the church weddings should go.

I think that many US priests feel that the wedding industry has become overblown, where more focus is put on the reception than on the actual lifelong marriage, so they discourage people from civil marriages that take advantage of certain marriage benefits (health insurance, military pay, etc.) followed by convalidation, especially when the couple is expecting the convalidation to look like a wedding. My priest does not do wedding ceremonies if the couple is already legally married (he also refuses to perform weddings if he feels that the couple has no intention of having God front and center in the marriage). I haven't heard of a convalidation at the church either.

mariadperezg · November 2010

Thank you mica178 , I actually didn't know that! So in the US the priest has the power to legally marry you ?? There doesn't have to be a lawyer present? It's crazy how the same church "rules" can change from country to country.

Calypso1977 · November 2010

yes, in the US a religious ceremony is considered legal provide the proper license has been obtained, including any blood tests that may be required (that varies too from state to state - here in MA, we didnt need one.

i'm pretty sure european countries are like Mexico - they need the legal and religious. but most of the times ive seen this, the legal is done the day before - not months ahead - and for the sole reason of it being required by law.

rombacja · November 2010

My brother and his wife had to marry for visa issues before the Catholic ceremony. They explained things to the priest and it wasn't a problem. I think at the end of the day, the Catholic ceremony is as important as you make it. I know plenty of people who go through the motions just to make their parents happy or whatever, but if you put the proper emphasis and energy into the Catholic ceremony, then that's what is most important. I think that if your intentions are good, you'll be able to find a priest who will work with you. That said, marrying to obtain health insurance is technically health care fraud and could be a little dangerous. So make sure you think through the legal aspects of this as well as the Church aspects. Good Luck with your decision!

bibliophile2010 · November 2010

"It's crazy how the same church "rules" can change from country to country."

(my quote function doesn't work properly)

I just want to clarify that it is not the chuch's rules that differ between the United States and Mexico (and other countries where legal marriages are seperate from religious ones), but the rules of the countries themselves. In the United States all religious leaders can perform legal marriages (within certain rules set by the states). In those other places no religious authority can perform a legal marriage (barring a weird exception). I imagine the Catholic Church would like the legal authority to peform all their weddings around the world, but accept the jurisdictions of the countries in which they exist.

Kate504 · November 2010

I am currently in school. I have been for a year and paying for COBRA. I have a friend that is encouraging me to do this, but I told her that this is def. not for me. (My COBRA runs out 7/31) Well her and her BF are getting ready to move to Cali and she said that they will probaly JP it and have a ceremony and all that later and not tell anyone that they are married. I know it is not me, but I hate that, but to each his own I guess. I know she is someone who would get married in a church. She is doing it for insurance and so she can go to school and get paid b/c he is in the military. I guess I am doing it the hard way and using every cent of savings I have, I have a year of school left.

GulfCoaster · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_legal-marriage-before-church-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8f581d44-5f69-409f-8a63-5e6388cb0149Post:33135a43-bcbe-4cc5-8b48-ac7d65590bc6">Re: Legal marriage before church marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]I am currently in school. I have been for a year and paying for COBRA. I have a friend that is encouraging me to do this, but I told her that this is def. not for me. (My COBRA runs out 7/31) Well her and her BF are getting ready to move to Cali and she said that they will probaly JP it and have a ceremony and all that later and not tell anyone that they are married. I know it is not me, but I hate that, but to each his own I guess. I know she is someone who would get married in a church. She is doing it for insurance and so she can go to school and get paid b/c he is in the military. I guess I am doing it the hard way and using every cent of savings I have, I have a year of school left.
Posted by Kate504[/QUOTE]

If you're in school full-time, can you buy a basic group health insurance policy through your university? I remember buying insurance as a grad student 2 or 3 years ago for about $400/semester -- which was far cheaper than COBRA from my previous job would have been. It was pretty basic coverage, catastrophic only, really. But that plus the free access to the student health center got me through.

FWIW, someone will eventually find out even if your friend doesn't tell anyone she's legally married. The church she wants to get married in will find out when she can't present them with a marriage license.

Good luck.

Calypso1977 · November 2010

kate, i dont know how old you are, but you can be on your parents plan until age 26 now, although your parents arent required to keep you on.

mariadperezg · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_legal-marriage-before-church-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:8f581d44-5f69-409f-8a63-5e6388cb0149Post:cb5a587f-a94b-4732-a836-b91f0a6351ba">Re: Legal marriage before church marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]"It's crazy how the same church "rules" can change from country to country. " (my quote function doesn't work properly) I just want to clarify that it is not the chuch's rules that differ between the United States and Mexico (and other countries where legal marriages are seperate from religious ones), but the rules of the countries themselves. In the United States all religious leaders can perform legal marriages (within certain rules set by the states). In those other places no religious authority can perform a legal marriage (barring a weird exception). I imagine the Catholic Church would like the legal authority to peform all their weddings around the world, but accept the jurisdictions of the countries in which they exist.
Posted by bibliophile2010[/QUOTE]

Got it bibliophile! I didn't know that either! Thanks!

wifeandmommy0609 · November 2010

my Fl and I elopped in 2008 and having our church wedding in 2011. He is catholic and I am becoming catholic. We didn't want to get married by church until i felt i was ready to become catholic. We have two kids and the church is fine with it.

Calypso1977 · December 2010

wifeandmommy, i think your situation is different as you are receiving a convalidation, and the reasons you are seeking the convalidaton are legit (you are now coming into the church and wish to have your marriage recognized). OP is trying to pull a fast one under the radar.

agapecarrie · December 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_legal-marriage-before-church-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:8f581d44-5f69-409f-8a63-5e6388cb0149Post:76ca34f3-8ac6-4e86-be00-cbc6213d23a0">Re: Legal marriage before church marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]my Fl and I elopped in 2008 and having our church wedding in 2011. He is catholic and I am becoming catholic. We didn't want to get married by church until i felt i was ready to become catholic. We have two kids and the church is fine with it.
Posted by wifeandmommy0609[/QUOTE]

The church is "fine" with people getting married in the church, returning to the church, and converting.

The church is NOT "fine" with people purposely turning their backs on the church for a civil marriage which would not be considered valid. I'm not saying that is what you did, but the way you put it makes it seem that it is an acceptable choice, which it isn't.

banana468 · December 2010

Ditto. There's a HUGE difference between seeking a convalidation and seeking to lie to your guests.

kindspiel14 · December 2010

My FI is Norwegian and here on an extension of his student visa (he was here getting his MBA until August) but we're not getting married until July, when his family can fly out for the ceremony. We've been engaged for a year tomorrow (!), but it's important to both of us that our families are here, so we're waiting for another 7 months.

However, we recently decided to go ahead with the legal marriage prior to the church wedding so that he can go through with his green card application before July, when his extension will be up. It makes the transition easier, makes certain he won't have to stop working when we get married (while his application is being processed) and gives him the freedom to actually leave the country if he needs to (right now it isn't guaranteed they'd let him back in, because it isn't a work visa).

We talked to our priest and he had absolutely no problem with us getting the legal part done in a few months. As he pointed out (and as FI and I feel) it's just a slip of paper. The real wedding for us isn't until the church ceremony-- it isn't being treated as just a convalidation. We're not having a full Mass, so maybe that makes a difference, but our priest said a legal marriage now (since we're mostly done with our marriage prep already) wouldn't change anything about the ceremony in July.

But we're awfully liberal up here in Seattle, so maybe I'm alone on this.

Wonders · December 2010

"I'm from Mexico and people do this all the time here. Being a 90% catholic country, I know many people who have had their legal wedding weeks or months prior to their Catholic wedding, for legal or visa purposes, and the Church is OK with that(you can't live together before the Catholic wedding though). I would speak to the priest and see what he says. "

Ditto This

From Where I'am from , people do this ! I will say 90 % of people do this all the time ...The church even encourage you to do this even if they know you were legally married in court years ago ...and it is what we are going to do next year in the US ! and Our priest finds nothing wrong with it ! For many reasons, (especially financial ) people would get married legally ( in court) years before they got married in church , and we just call it religious wedding or something like that ( translating from French ) ...Like people said , ask your priest , but I don't think you should feel bad about it !! It's still as beautiful and valid , as if you were doing it the same time you were married in court ...Some people even consider this very meaningful for older couples , as the grow well within the catholic community with all the ups and downs , and as their faith has grown .
GL

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