"Pick and Choose" Catholic (*Potentially Hot Topic*)

Re: "Pick and Choose" Catholic (*Potentially Hot Topic*)

• Calypso1977 member

  

  September 2012

  honestly, i do wish people would leave if they dont believe.
  
  id rather have a smaller quantity of catholics to worship with that believe all the things i believe than a greater quantity who arent consistent in thought and who ultimately just confuse others who may be looking at the religion.
  
  I think the reason so many people dislike the catholic church is because it is not an "easy" religion. You are held accountable. I believe the catholic church is hated out of fear; The church teaches what is true, not what is popular.
  
  i agree completely.

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• Riss91 member

  

  September 2012

  I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. I think coming into the faith I a long process where we should be challenging our thinking and the Church's in order to grow. So I think it is natural to not "agree" with every single thing. Now that i have gown more deeply in my faith I have realized that not "agreeing" really means not fully understanding. But it feels like a disagreement until you get there. That is why I would never want someone to leave the Church simply for not "agreeing". However, someone that has been very thorough in their research and still continues to believe that the Church is not Truth, should not masquerade as a Catholic, while spouting out antichurch doctrine.

  
  

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• shawna127 member

  

  September 2012

  Well said Riss, I would definitely agree with that!

  

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• Calypso1977 member

  

  September 2012

  ive said this before, btu they need to fully revamp the religious ed program.  that's half the problem.
  
  for whatever reason, they abandoned the Baltimore Catechism and replaced it with watered down/borderline protestant materials.  tehy also seem to allow any layperson to be a CCD teacher.  im shocked at some of teh people i know who teach CCD - persons of multiple marriages, civil marriages, IVF proponents, abortion supporters, etc.
  
  

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• shawna127 member

  

  September 2012

  I know, that is the one thing I think the church is really bad with!  We need a better way to educate the people of the church...

  

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• professorscience member

  

  September 2012

  I find it really surprising that the formation for younger people can be so watered down.  I felt like my RCIA experience was SO informative that I can't imagine the education for younger Catholics being any different.
  
  I agree and disagree with the stance in the article, for pretty much the same reasons as Riss.  I would hate for someone to "leave" the church over a misunderstanding.  I mean, if everyone left because they disagree with a teaching, we'd have just about every teenager swearing off the Catholic faith at some point or another. 

  

  
  

  
  

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• Ciardasully member

  

  September 2012

  My problem isn't necessarily people diagreeing or misunderstanding.  I know, as a cradle Catholic, that my faith journey has been long and I am still learning.  My big issue is people who disagree, are vocal about it and feel like they need to portray their view as the view of the whole Church. 

  

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• agapecarrie member

  

  September 2012

  I think its important to note here what I believe the pope is actually getting at. I hope this illustrates what I mean: 

  
  

  I once was quoted a statistic that .09 % (point zero nine percent) divorces happen when a couple prays at home together, attends weekly mass, and uses NFP. However, the "catholic church" is known for having a divorce rate much higher than this, I've actually heard its the same as the common marriage across the board.

  
  

  Why is this? Because people are claiming "cultural" catholicity, as well as C& E Catholicity, as well as cafeteria catholicity.  Because of this, everybody can look at the "rules" and think they do no good. This is the scandal thats a problem. If ONLY the couples that actually practice the faith in their marriage (praying together, mass, NFP, etc) could claim the title Catholic (and then have the .09% divorce rate), this itself would be a witness to the teachings. People would see that there is actually something right about it.

  
  

  I'm not talking practicalities here. I know there isn't necessarily a solution in this, but I think this is the point the pope is trying to make. 

  
  

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• professorscience member

  

  September 2012

  Well, yeah, I don't think the intention is to cause a mass exodus from the Church.  He's simply saying that anyone who calls himself a Catholic should do so fully in spirit, and not just when he feels like it.

  

  
  

  
  

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• Eliz77 member

  

  September 2012

  I think it's impossinle to agree with EVERYTHING you are taught, regardless if we are talking about religion, what your parents tell you, your political party, etc. I believe it's natural to question or challenge things we are taught and maybe even not agree in the end. There have been times I refer back to what I was taught by my parents and by the Church growing up as being "right" or "wrong" in my life when facing difficult choices. 

  
  

  I know there are some topics that I feel strongly about that the Church has taken stands on. I don't think it would help me or other Catholics to have to leave the Church or be turned away because I don't agree with everything 100%. I look at my religion as my foundation, as the base for what my life began on. I think as I have grown up and matured, I have developed my own opinions even if it's not 100% what I was taught at one point. 

  ~ES~

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• agapecarrie member

  

  September 2012 edited September 2012

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_pick-and-choose-catholic-potentially-hot-topic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:72e62bbd-5610-43a0-9b7d-180f71dc3455Post:922a2ea9-1b78-4325-aada-bae6121cea50">Re:quot;Pick and Choosequot; Catholic Potentially Hot Topic</a>:
  [QUOTE]I think it's impossinle to agree with EVERYTHING you are taught, regardless if we are talking about religion, what your parents tell you, your political party, etc. I believe it's natural to question or challenge things we are taught and maybe even not agree in the end. There have been times I refer back to what I was taught by my parents and by the Church growing up as being "right" or "wrong" in my life when facing difficult choices.  I know there are some topics that I feel strongly about that the Church has taken stands on. I don't think it would help me or other Catholics to have to leave the Church or be turned away because I don't agree with everything 100%. I look at my religion as my foundation, as the base for what my life began on. I think as I have grown up and matured, I have developed my own opinions even if it's not 100% what I was taught at one point. 
  Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]
  
  <div>I'm not following what you are saying about "what you are taught". You could be taught a different number of things right or wrong. </div><div>
  </div><div>THe church, however, is the bride of Christ. It is absolutely 100% impossible for her to be incorrect in faith and morals... because it was promised in Matthew 16. By definition, the church must be one with Christ's teachings. Some teachings are hard, some turn away from them (Christ allowed people to walk away from him because the teachings were hard). But He doesn't conflict. </div><div>
  </div><div>If you research enough, you can see that one teaching of the church cannot exist without all of the others. It's a complete web interwoven. THe assumption of Mary is connected to the teachings on artificial birth control, which is connected to Eucharist, which is connected to Confession, which is connected to why women can't be priests. So, actually, by rejecting one, you are rejecting all of them, because you can't have one without the other.</div><div>
  </div><div>I absolutely agree with 100% of the church teachings. I'm not my own pope, I don't make up my own truth. I can rely that the church will not lead me astray. It is absolutely freeing to surrender to it. </div>

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• shawna127 member

  

  September 2012

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_pick-and-choose-catholic-potentially-hot-topic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:72e62bbd-5610-43a0-9b7d-180f71dc3455Post:1ee78994-2648-4026-a2a5-ffacd7c490c4">Re:quot;Pick and Choosequot; Catholic Potentially Hot Topic</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re:quot;Pick and Choosequot; Catholic Potentially Hot Topic : I'm not following what you are saying about "what you are taught". You could be taught a different number of things right or wrong.  THe church, however, is the bride of Christ. It is absolutely 100% impossible for her to be incorrect in faith and morals... because it was promised in Matthew 16. By definition, the church must be one with Christ's teachings. Some teachings are hard, some turn away from them (Christ allowed people to walk away from him because the teachings were hard). But He doesn't conflict.  If you research enough, you can see that one teaching of the church cannot exist without all of the others. It's a complete web interwoven. THe assumption of Mary is connected to the teachings on artificial birth control, which is connected to Eucharist, which is connected to Confession, which is connected to why women can't be priests. So, actually, by rejecting one, you are rejecting all of them, because you can't have one without the other. I absolutely agree with 100% of the church teachings. I'm not my own pope, I don't make up my own truth. I can rely that the church will not lead me astray. It is absolutely freeing to surrender to it. 
  Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
  
  This is exactly why I love the church, and why I love being a catholic!  I am not a perfect person and can't do things exactly as the church says, but I strive to do what the church/The Lord teaches.  Great explanation agape!

  

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• shawna127 member

  

  September 2012

  exactly!  Sometimes it is really hard to follow church teachings (don't we all know that!), I think discernment is such a great word, and often overlooked.  Our faith is not easy, but definitely worth it!

  

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• Eliz77 member

  

  September 2012

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_pick-and-choose-catholic-potentially-hot-topic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:72e62bbd-5610-43a0-9b7d-180f71dc3455Post:1ee78994-2648-4026-a2a5-ffacd7c490c4">Re:quot;Pick and Choosequot; Catholic Potentially Hot Topic</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re:quot;Pick and Choosequot; Catholic Potentially Hot Topic : I'm not following what you are saying about "what you are taught". You could be taught a different number of things right or wrong.  
  Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]
  For example: the Church tells us same sex marriage, or birth control/abortion are immoral/wrong. I may not be homosexual or willing to use BC or have an abortion, but I believe homosexuality is not a choice and believe a woman has the right to do what they want to do where their bodies are concerned. I have talked to my Priest and Deacon about some of my concerns and opinions and not once did I feel sinful for feeling as I do, or felt I should be shunned from the Church. I believe in acceptance, tolerance and love for all of God's children. This, IMO, is a touchy subject. I won't apologize for feeling as I do, but I respect not all feel as I do. Like I've said before, this is a forum and I just wish to share my opinions, not force my beliefs onto anyone or criticize anyone.

  ~ES~

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• agapecarrie member

  

  September 2012 edited September 2012

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_pick-and-choose-catholic-potentially-hot-topic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:72e62bbd-5610-43a0-9b7d-180f71dc3455Post:a6f117b2-e06b-4c6a-90fc-3e07160ba39d">Re:quot;Pick and Choosequot; Catholic Potentially Hot Topic</a>:
  [QUOTE]In Response to Re:quot;Pick and Choosequot; Catholic Potentially Hot Topic : For example: the Church tells us same sex marriage, or birth control/abortion are immoral/wrong. I may not be homosexual or willing to use BC or have an abortion, but I believe homosexuality is not a choice and believe a woman has the right to do what they want to do where their bodies are concerned. I have talked to my Priest and Deacon about some of my concerns and opinions and not once did I feel sinful for feeling as I do, or felt I should be shunned from the Church. I believe in acceptance, tolerance and love for all of God's children. This, IMO, is a touchy subject. I won't apologize for feeling as I do, but I respect not all feel as I do. Like I've said before, this is a forum and I just wish to share my opinions, not force my beliefs onto anyone or criticize anyone.
  Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]
  
  <div>First off, the church doesn't say anything about whether homosexuality is a choice or not. That really has nothing to do with what the church teaches about it.</div><div>
  </div><div>However, the Bishops have made it absolutely clear that you cannot be pro-choice and be catholic.  It's the same as a "meat eating vegetarian"</div><div><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/coyne/00267.html">http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/coyne/00267.html</a></div><div>
  </div><div>It doesn't seem that you actually know what the church teaches about it, merely by the way you are phrasing your objections. I would suggest reading "Theology of the Body for Beginners" by Christopher West to learn why the church teaches what she does before rejecting it. </div><div>
  </div><div>Love and acceptance does not in any way equal supporting or enabling sin. </div>

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• agapecarrie member

  

  September 2012

  Here's another blog by a friend of mine:

  
  

  http://justacatholic.blogspot.com/2012/09/im-pro-choice-not-pro-abortion-why-that.html

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• Riss91 member

  

  September 2012

  I actually used to believe that I could "separate" my religious/moral viewpoint fr my political viewpoint. I absolutely thought there was nothing wrong with being okay with others committing sins because it isn't my place to determine ther behavior. And thu don't need to agree with me so why should they have to follow "my" rules? It was actually pretty intense. My then boyfriend and I would get into arguments about it. I challenged the Church and he lovingly and patiently walked me through it all. Like agape said, once it finally "clicked" I realized it truly is hard to believe in "most" of the Church's teachings without believing all of it. It is all linked. I didn't want it to be. I liked feeling "flexible" and feeling like I fit in with mainstream ideas in society. But once it clicked, I realized how wrong I was. You really can't shrug off some teachings, or vote against them politically. If you do, you are an accomplice to the sin.

  
  

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• Riss91 member

  

  September 2012

  That's not to say I don't struggle with some things, but I intend to do more research and more praying to understand them.

  
  

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• Karadee1 member

  

  September 2012

  That was an interesting article! Not too long ago the Monsignor at our church gave a homily that spoke of "cafeteria Catholicism" and it really resonated with me for a few reasons. 

  
  

  I become frustrated when the church community takes on the judgement role - I am a firm believer that you really can't judge another on their journey with faith. It's easy to want to point out all the things I think someone is doing "wrong" - I'm helping them! - but you know, that's not always the best way to go about it. Because I really never know where the other person stands - it's really only between that person and God. Although as a Catholic I want everyone to believe in everything the church teaches 100%, it's not always that easy. I'm not perfect, nobody is perfect.

  
  

  Even the article mentions this - "You might have teachings you find difficult to accept. However, (in those circumstances) it is virtuous to believe since you make a sacrifice of your own will, taking as your own the mind of the Church." 

  
  

  You want me - an American with the freedom of speech guaranteed to me by the Constitution - to sacrifice my own will? What?! (That sums up the most stubborn of apprehensions to this - though I don't believe this I meant it for more of a comic overexaggeration :-)). This is the hard part. This is the part I struggle with day in and day out, and in being honest with that struggle, I will ultimately grow and *hopefully* be able to indeed sacrifice my will for that of God.

  
  

  That's what I take away from articles such as this - introspection into my Catholic faith. Am I a cafeteria Catholic? In all honesty, yes. Am I going to leave the church? No. Does it give me basis on where to begin my work? Absolutely. I have a long way to go in my journey with faith. 

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• Calypso1977 member

  

  September 2012

  Eliz, i agree with you that homosexuality isnt a choice.  however, the homosexual has a choice as to whether or not they wish to act upon their homosexuality, just as a straight person has a choice whether or not not act upon their urges/feelings outside of marriage or with/without the use of artificial ABC.
  
   

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• Resa77

  

  September 2012

  I think 99% of true, practicing Catholics have certain teachings that they don't really agree with 100% -- but they are able to admit that they don't know best, and trust the Church even though they don't quite understand. 
  
  Also, while you can objectively know something is wrong, there's nothing that says you can't look at someone with compassion, and recognize that subjective factors can lessen the guilt one has for his/her sins.  It is not up to us -- any of us -- to judge someone's soul.  All  we can do is try to be a good example, and love.  As others have mentioned, love doesn't mean enabling someone to sin.  It's a fine balance, really, and it's one that I think most people struggle with...the struggle between between too lax or too scrupulous; too permissive, or too judgmental. 

   

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• bibliophile2010 member

  

  September 2012

  I'd just like to second pretty much everything Riss said.

  

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• Eliz77 member

  

  September 2012

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_pick-and-choose-catholic-potentially-hot-topic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:72e62bbd-5610-43a0-9b7d-180f71dc3455Post:87b0453a-968e-4abe-853f-f94e39af5838">Re: "Pick and Choose" Catholic (*Potentially Hot Topic*)</a>:
  [QUOTE]Eliz, i agree with you that homosexuality isnt a choice.  however, the homosexual has a choice as to whether or not they wish to act upon their homosexuality, just as a straight person has a choice whether or not not act upon their urges/feelings outside of marriage or with/without the use of artificial ABC.  
  Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]
  This is where I disagree-yes, a person has the choice whether or not to embark on a relationship with ANY person they are attracted to. IMO, pursuing a relationship with a member of the same sex it is NOT the same thing as committing adultrey, unless of course one is in a marriage to being with. If someone cheats on a spouse, they would be hard pressed to find much support. IMO, same sex couples who are single to begin with can do as they wish. I hope one day people look back and are like,"Wow, can you believe that once upon a time it was taboo to have same sex, interracial or interreligious relationship!" JMHO!<div>
  </div><div>Regardless of that topic, I know there have been things I've questioned about my faith over the years. I'm very fortunate to have a great family support system who has been patient in teachiing, discussing and even debating such topics with me. I also feel very fortunate that the Parish I now belong to is very welcoming, patient and even appear more "modern" for lack of better wording, as well. Very happy my future kids will grow up here. I don't think being forced to leave the Church or being shunned or what not because there are topics I question would help anyone. </div>

  ~ES~

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• Riss91 member

  

  September 2012

  But sin is sin. It is a sin to engage in homosexual acts. It is a sin to have pre marital sex. It is a sin to commit adultery. Lucky for us, God is good and bestows grace upon those that repent. But we can't receive his grace if we refuse to acknowledge the son in the first place. It is very difficult in society today because we are shunned for recognizing sin. Of course we are taught to expect that. Sex/sexuality is a cornerstone of the faith surely it is the biggest target of evil.

  
  

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• Calypso1977 member

  

  September 2012

  IMO, pursuing a relationship with a member of the same sex it is NOT the same thing as committing adultrey, unless of course one is in a marriage to being with.
  
  my comment was meant to address the issue of heterosexual couples who engage in pre-marital sex. 
  
  but at any rate, a sin is a sin.  while as catholics we differentiate between mortal and venial sins, in these examples (homosexual relations, pre-marital relations, adultery), all three are mortal sins.
  
  

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• agapecarrie member

  

  September 2012

  Teachings in faith and morals will not ever change, and have never changed. Otherwise, they cannot be true.

  
  

  Again, I beg people to read TOB for beginners by Christopher West. 

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• Eliz77 member

  

  September 2012

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_pick-and-choose-catholic-potentially-hot-topic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:72e62bbd-5610-43a0-9b7d-180f71dc3455Post:8892614a-5ff4-4daa-b202-ceb5708eed98">Re: "Pick and Choose" Catholic (*Potentially Hot Topic*)</a>:
  [QUOTE]IMO, pursuing a relationship with a member of the same sex it is NOT the same thing as committing adultrey, unless of course one is in a marriage to being with. my comment was meant to address the issue of heterosexual couples who engage in pre-marital sex.  but at any rate, a sin is a sin.  while as catholics we differentiate between mortal and venial sins, in these examples (homosexual relations, pre-marital relations, adultery), all three are mortal sins.
  Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]
  OK, I understand, I just don't agree. Pre-martial relations and adultery should be a concern and frowned upon, that I do agree with. I don't lump homosexuality in that category. I'm not challenging the Church to change their ways or what not. Just saying I personally do not feel the same way and no amount of reading, debating or teaching will change my mind. I also feel it wouldn't be necessary or beneficial to me to leave the Church because I feel differently on this matter. 

  ~ES~

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• Riss91 member

  

  September 2012

  In Response to Re::[QUOTE]In Response to Re: "Pick and Choose" Catholic Potentially Hot Topic:Just saying I personally do not feel the same way and no amount of reading, debating or teaching will change my mind. .nbsp; Posted by Eliz77[/QUOTE]
  
  This is pretty much word for word what I said repeatedly to my husband years ago.

  
  

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• Eliz77 member

  

  September 2012

  And you've changed your mind now? That's your right. I have family members (my Godmother included) and very good friends that I support in their same-sex relationships, including one couple who has married and have two children. I very highly doubt anything short of a lobotomy I will ever change my view. :-) 

  ~ES~

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• ootmother2 member

  

  September 2012

  In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_pick-and-choose-catholic-potentially-hot-topic?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:72e62bbd-5610-43a0-9b7d-180f71dc3455Post:064e2b7b-6bbf-44ce-89c3-bb7ee0b26d0c">Re:quot;Pick and Choosequot; Catholic Potentially Hot Topic</a>:
  [QUOTE]I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree. I think coming into the faith I a long process where we should be challenging our thinking and the Church's in order to grow. So I think it is natural to not "agree" with every single thing. Now that i have gown more deeply in my faith I have realized that not "agreeing" really means not fully understanding. But it feels like a disagreement until you get there. That is why I would never want someone to leave the Church simply for not "agreeing". However, someone that has been very thorough in their research and still continues to believe that the Church is not Truth, should not masquerade as a Catholic, while spouting out antichurch doctrine.
  Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]
  
  I agree with Riss here.  I I may have to just accept some things until I understand them fully or sometimes just accept.  In any case, I would never speak out against my religion to anyone any more than I would shove it down someone else's throat. We all have a choice and this is mine.

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